So, tomorrow's the day... Funimation...

[chen lung]

I've written this up to inspire people to contact them.

1) Present original mono audio for each language before considering any remix option

For more information on why remixed audio is not favoured, you can visit Asian DVD Guide which explains the music re-scoring, poor mixing, and new sound effects - all very distracting.

This, however, appears to be an area currently with no problems, as the original mono sound has been included. However, please bare this in mind, should there be reconsideration in future.

Also, please be careful that you do not receive a downmixed soundtrack labelled "mono" (known as 'false mono').

A recently-commissioned dub maybe 5.1 naturally when Celestial made it themselves, in which case, isn't a concern, compared to the older dubs.

2) Ensure the correct language is present

Shaw Brothers films were either made in Cantonese or Mandarin. Until the late 70s (with exception of very few titles), those were predominantly Mandarin, but Cantonese became popular and began occupying the slot of "main official soundtrack" (note Mandarin soundtracks were usually produced alongside for other territories).

Celestial usually assume all the films are Mandarin, so it is recommended that an authority confirms which is the correct one. If there's debate/uncertainty as to what should be the correct one, include both.

3) Inclusion of English dubs

Prior to the acquisition and sub-licensing of Shaw Brothers films by Celestial Pictures in and from 2002, viewers were often presented and acquainted with dubbed versions (commissioned by Shaws in Hong Kong for export use at the time of release - with a few exceptions when the US re-edited them, or made their own) that were broadcast on TV, and released theatrically and on VHS releases. In the popular demand, fans are keen to be re-acquainted with these in restored/remastered and legit form.

If a dubbed version is not available from Celestial, please ask for information, as such soundtracks have emerged elsewhere.

Also include an accompanying seperate subtitle track transcribing on-screen text (currently being done).

4) Render video progressive for film-based content and interlaced for anything else

Currently with the first two releases, there are blended frames within the stream (pause and skip to see these). Please ensure that the original PAL or HD masters are acquired and convert yourselves a 23.976 version (within the 29.97 NTSC stream) so that all the frames are re-created with no instances of blending or interlacing (involuntary or otherwise). For anything intended to be shown interlaced (video-shot), please leave it as that.

Please also be careful that there are no video glitches (which may in turn affect the audio), such as flashing, jumps or pixelation.

Note - this also applies to the extras.

5) Re-translate the English subtitles

For a long time, the majority of Hong Kong cinema presentations have been at the mercy of crude subtitle presentations. Shaw Brothers films were an unusual exception to that, where translations were of excellent quality (as evidenced on theatrical prints). As Celestial acquired the Shaw catologue, these were abandoned and fresh subtitle translations were prepared. Unfortunately, issues with grammar, phrasing, choice of words and translation were prevalent.

Please hire a translator to re-translate dialogue and re-transcribe on-screen text (signs, letters, credits etc) with minimal simplification, remaining as accurate as possible (also providing translation where there is none). Afterwards, ensure they are proof-read for errors and tangibility. Also that they are legible in presentation.

As there are sometimes multiple languages (between Cantonese and Mandarin) to possibly base these upon, it is again recommended that an authority confirms which of the dialects is correct, as one may have differences in the script (perhaps a local reference, or denoting a language barrier) and naturally, the pronunciation. An example of the latter:

Chinese - 方世玉

Cantonese jyutping - Fong Sai Yuk

Mandarin pinyin - Fang Shi Yu

Note - this also applies to the extras, where you could potentially offer translation where there isn't.

6) Use seamless branching if there's a version with different length or visuals

For different territories, the film maybe re-edited. Instead of "filling the gap" with subtitles and different audio where an edit occurred in a different version, integrate seamless branching (including the relevant sound and subtitle tracks in the stream).

7) Acquire as many extras as possible

Extras could consist of: interviews, photo galleries (production/behind the scenes), posters, promotional material (magazines, etc), trailers, credit sequences, deleted scenes.

Celestial not only have produced featurettes, but also have access to archival material, such as trailers and photo galleries. Some distributors have also created their own extras. Funimation could seek to acquire all of these for their edition (providing a translation too).

Trailers and credit sequences can often be found on previous VHS releases all over, and I'm sure there are fans who would be willing to lend materials for inclusion - mastering them at the best quality possible.

---

I would recommend placing a representative maintaining regular contact with the Kung Fu Cinema community, who can assist with questions and resolve technical issues both ways.

[cliffmac2010]

Yeah, I checked out BCI's Life Gamble through Netflix, and it was indeed lacking an English dub. Not sure why, as I see clips on YouTube with a (rough quality) English dub. Wonder if HKG will have one or not.

Celestial couldn't deliver to us an English dub and I couldn't find an acceptable version to synch up to the master.

[cliffmac2010]

I see on the Funimation packaging that it's a Navarre company, as was BCI. Has this always been the case? If so, why couldn't leftover "extras" that would've been on the BCI/Shaw DVDs make it to the Funimation/Shaw DVDs? If upcoming releases will only have the movie and language options, that'll mean the newly-reissued "Life Gamble" and "Opium and the Kung Fu Master" will not contain "extras" featured on the BCI discs, it seems. Hold on to your BCI versions for dear life!...As for my first viewing of "The 14 Amazons": better than expected! Lily Ho makes her role work, but she's NO boy!! She's so obviously a...woman, why not write her part as being the youngest WOMAN there?...Anybody notice Fan Mei Shing carrying around two axes like he did when he was in "The Water Margin"?...Amazing special effects, too; they're on a par with the Lyendecker brothers' work on Republic serials! Overall, it's quite the epic, and often outdoes "The Water Margin" by spectacles like the "human bridge"! Bravura film-making....

The reason - Because Navarre fired us BCI employees, then they came in and through everything into boxes and shipped them back to the home office. No one bothered to call and ask me anything. Extras were planned for every release... and some were completed and a lot were not. I had files and emails that showed what was being done, but i'm sure Funimation never had access to any of my information.

Blame Navarre, not Funimation. No one there has an knowledge of the product. They are only releasing them because Navarre paid for the films. It's not like they care for the films or how they are released. They are all about getting their money back.

Cliff

Ex-BCI guy

[cliffmac2010]

Sounds odd...perhaps its progressive PAL-NTSC?

Not promising...

I had some of the films converted from Celestials PAL spec to NTSC, but i don't think HAND LOCK was one of them. It was expensive to do, so i was doing them two at a time. I think AMAZONS was done, but i don't recall for sure.

CLiff

[Killer Meteor]

I had some of the films converted from Celestials PAL spec to NTSC, but i don't think HAND LOCK was one of them. It was expensive to do, so i was doing them two at a time. I think AMAZONS was done, but i don't recall for sure.

CLiff

Ah, makes sense. Hope things are well at Shout!, I'm getting all excited over Gamera!

[masterofoneinchpunch]

Just got Hand Lock. Very disappointed. I never noticed the blending frames thing on the Image DVDs except when I paused it, but only 2 minutes into Hand Lock and I can see the blur quite clearly during the fights. Man I hope HK Godfather doesn't look like this.

You can see the blur in many scenes beyond the fighting as well. Any fast walking or camera movement you can see the blur. I'm surprised it was as bad as it was.

Luckily the film isn't the greatest (otherwise I would probably be more angry). Liked the scenery of Thailand though.

Shaolin Hand Lock = RNC .

[chen lung]

Hey Cliff

Nice to see you on again! Hope you're well.

Thanks for explaining the situation to us.

[KUNG FU BOB]

Hey Cliff, thanks for the info! A lot of us said prayers for you to get a nice, new gig. I hope they're treating you right over there. Keep in touch man, your insight as both an inside man, and as a fan are always welcome.

Still loving my discs of the Chiba-san stuff you helped put out years ago.

[The Running Man]

Hey Cliff!

Can you help shine some light on the subtitle situation? Neither "Opium and the Kung Fu Master" nor "Life Gamble" were re-translated. There was word before hand that they were going to be. What happened?

[Guest Markgway]

Cliff - Do you know anything about the missing scenes from The 14 Amazons?

[inframan]

Celestial couldn't deliver to us an English dub and I couldn't find an acceptable version to synch up to the master.

Has anyone seen the version that was on the Kung Fu HD Channel? Not sure if it was dubbed or subbed and how the quality was.

[cliffmac2010]

Ah, makes sense. Hope things are well at Shout!, I'm getting all excited over Gamera!

Things are going well... thanks!

I hope you like GAMERA.

[cliffmac2010]

Cliff - Do you know anything about the missing scenes from The 14 Amazons?

No, sorry I don't. That was to be the next title, but we had yet to start working on it before the shutdown.

[cliffmac2010]

Hey Cliff!

Can you help shine some light on the subtitle situation? Neither "Opium and the Kung Fu Master" nor "Life Gamble" were re-translated. There was word before hand that they were going to be. What happened?

They were re-subtitled by a subtitle house in L.A.

Are you saying they match the HK releases subtitles?

If they match those releases, then that subtitle house ripped BCI off.

[cliffmac2010]

Hey Cliff, thanks for the info! A lot of us said prayers for you to get a nice, new gig. I hope they're treating you right over there. Keep in touch man, your insight as both an inside man, and as a fan are always welcome.

Still loving my discs of the Chiba-san stuff you helped put out years ago.

Thanks Bob! I appreciate that. All is going well.

I was just thinking about SHADOW WARRIORS today and thinking how much i would have loved to release the second season.... but weak sales killed that idea.

[cliffmac2010]

Hey Cliff

Nice to see you on again! Hope you're well.

Thanks for explaining the situation to us.

Hey... Thanks... i couldn't help but join in on the thread. I wanted to bring the films to Shout Factory, but it didn't work out.

[The Running Man]

They were re-subtitled by a subtitle house in L.A.

Are you saying they match the HK releases subtitles?

If they match those releases, then that subtitle house ripped BCI off.

Then they ripped you guys off.

Or whoever was in charge of putting subtitles on the DVD used the wrong script? Could that have been a possibility?

[chen lung]

Hey... Thanks... i couldn't help but join in on the thread. I wanted to bring the films to Shout Factory, but it didn't work out.

Just incase, how about the Miramax titles?

Great potential there.

Or whoever was in charge of putting subtitles on the DVD used the wrong script? Could that have been a possibility?

I hadn't considered that possibility.

Although that said, it happened to both titles.

[The Running Man]

Okay, I got 14 Amazones and Shaolin Hand Lock.

After going through the subs for Shaolin Hand Lock, they are very close to the old Celestial subs. It seems to me someone just proof read them.

14 Amazons though is an interesting case.

The Good News: They are new subs. They read well.

The Bad News: They play way too loose with the translation to the point of it being useless.

Literally, there are lines just plain made up in the Funimation subs for 14 Amazons. It's shocking that the old English dub is closer to the some lines then the Funimation subs.

This means that obviously Funimation is looking through these subs. Are they actually using a translator? I am not sure. If they are then the translator isn't worth a dime and if they are just re-wrote those subs well then they sure have some nerve to do so.

People, write to Funimation about the subtitle situation. If they can't do anything about the video masters they can at least do something with the subs. They do have a blog somewhere that was linked to here before. If someone can find that link it'd be a good idea to go there and reply on their posts letting them know that their subs are sub-par shouldn't be improved otherwise no sale.

[Killer Meteor]

I just hope Funimation learns from the mistakes, unlike some of the other companies. There is still time!

[chen lung]

Not only the blog and email, but phone them (+1.972.355.7300) and mention the guidelines.

I've had enough of this shit being put out.

[spannick]

[HAZ]

Celestial did commission new subs for 14 Amazons a couple years ago. Those subs were use for the theatrical release of the film. Maybe those are the subs that are on the funimation dvd?

It's sad about Shaolin Hand Lock. Hearing Morgoth talk about it, I figured it was best to take a pass.

[The Running Man]

No, they aren't. For 14 Amazons, the Celestial subs are generally more accurate than the Funimation ones. The Funimation subs make up a lot of stuff.

I'm really shocked at what they did here.

An example:

Celestial subs:

74

00:07:22,282 --> 00:07:22,963

Kuei Ying

75

00:07:23,083 --> 00:07:24,364

Yes!

76

00:07:24,965 --> 00:07:26,206

We're at home now

77

00:07:26,286 --> 00:07:28,649

There's no need for such formality!

78

00:07:29,489 --> 00:07:30,130

Of course

Funimation subs:

-- Kuei Ying. --Here.

Thank you for arranging the party.

You're welcome.

That whole business with the last two lines are totally made up.

Even the old dub on here gets it more right:

- Keui Ying. - Madam.

Don't be so formal. Try and relax a little.

Yes.

The strange thing is, every now and then they seem to get some things right that aren't in the old subs. Like a name mentioned or a phrase that's closer to the original dialogue than the Celestial subs. But a lot of the times it's just made up.

Here's another example that illustrates both:

Celestial subs:

747

01:00:59,620 --> 01:01:01,742

Search for Mu Kuei Ying!

748

01:01:01,862 --> 01:01:02,743

Yes!

749

01:01:05,385 --> 01:01:09,509

Kill all the prisoners!

750

01:01:09,630 --> 01:01:13,313

Make them kneel before your brother

751

01:01:13,433 --> 01:01:14,554

Yes!

Funimation subs:

Search for Mu Keui Ying and her troops.

Yes!

Kill each and every captured Sung solider. Let them kneel in front of the courtyard. Torture them with whips.

Yes

See, that line about "Kill each and every captured Sung solider" is closer to the original Mandarin than the Celestial subs. But then the next two sentences are made up. "Torture them with whips"?? That's completely made up.

I'm shocked. The last time a company did this was Dragon Dynasty with their bastardized version of "Tom Yum Goong" and that was a Weinstein job just like they did back in their Miramax days with movies like Hero and Infernal Affairs. Basically, making up subtitles.

Now Funimation is doing it??

I'm confused also how it is they have some lines that are more accurate and a lot of lines that are made up. Did a translator do a subtitle track and someone came in and just re-wrote most of it? Really bizarre. But totally unacceptable.

Shaolin Hand Lock though is basically just the same subs except with a little proof-reading and better timing.

Everyone, please send Funimation a message. Either through their blog, their email or PM'ing the representative that posted here.

Let it be a polite message explaining that what they did with their subs on 14 Amazons is simply not right. Although they may not have the resources or budget to fix transfers and whatnot, at the very least they can make these releases worthwhile by giving them respectable treatment via the subtitles by giving them authentic re-translations from a professional translator. If not, then note that you cannot support the releases (that is unless you only care about the dubs).

Here is the link to the thread where the Funimation rep posted (scroll down a bit): http://www.kungfucinema.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2912&page=13

There are links to the blogs where you can post and email address as well as a PM you can send him. Remember, let's be polite about this.

[dionbrother]

People need to step their game up & graduate to 35mm! DVD is okay, but it's an economy format. The true connoisseur understands that DVD is a means to an end & comparing them is like comparing dog terds.

35mm.

Step your game up.

This is my favorite post on this board.