Conan the Barbarian: Remake

[dionbrother]

Karl Edward Wagner wrote a script based on "Beyond The Black River" for Conan 3 around 1987, when DeLaurentis wanted to film it with Arnold in Wilmington, NC. He disliked the first two Conan films, so it would have been interesting to see how that would have turned out.

[dionbrother]

One hope for the new movie: Momoa reads the Howard stories between takes to get a feel for the character. One hopes others are doing the same.

[dionbrother]

I thought Gordon Scott was a great Tarzan in TARZAN THE MAGNIFICENT and TARZAN'S GREATEST ADVENTURE. Not perfect but closer to the Burroughs concepts than even GREYSTOKE.

Herman Brix in THE NEW ADVENTURES OF TARZAN serial was the closest, because it was produced by old Edgar Rice himself!

[ShaOW!linDude]

I didn't say that... I said I had seen Kull more than once. I've seen both Conan movies more than once, too. Truth be told, though, I like Kull stories more than I like Conan stories.

As far as Tarzan goes.... yeah, the Ron Ely Tarzan is the most accurate Tarzan character but the show isn't so great. I like Burroughs other stuff, especially the Barsoom stuff, but Tarzan is so racist it gets hard to read, especially if you have gone through Haggard's Quartermain books. Although earlier, H Rider Haggard had lived in Africa and had an appreciation for the people there. If you haven't read King Solomon's Mines, which has NO good movie adaptations, you should!

PS: Kull does have Tia looking all hot in it though... and that beats Sandahl Bergman

Dude, I'm yanking your chain. I know you didn't say that. I never read any of the Kull stories. Always meant to.

And, yes, KULL did have Tia Carrere in it looking all hot but CONAN had that really freaky witchy chick.

I never knew ERB was such a racist until I read his biography. But then it all made sense. And while Ron Ely's Tarzan may have been the more accurate one portrayed on screen, I'm a Johnny Weismuller fan. Could do that yell, too. Well, until puberty hit and I went all Peter Brady in the voice.

dionbrother ---- I always wanted to see Conan conquering Aquilonia and setting himself up as king on the big screen.

[dionbrother]

They'd have to adapt Howard's only Conan novel, "Hour of the Dragon." Only problem is the lousy KULL was a watered down version of Charles Pogue's script for CONAN 3, which adapted the novel. KULL isn't really based on any of the Kull stories.

There's a great KULL trade paperback volume released by Del Rey, among other "pure" Howard volumes in their series.

I read the same ERB biography and I think the author overstated ERB's racism. Using modern PC viewpoints on century old work is a personal indulgence. Not saying the original Tarzan text don't have their racial issues or insensitivity, but they are hardly anything like The Turner Diaries! ERB was typical of his time. And does have his black fans, like Steven Barnes and Charles Saunders.

[mpm74]

I guess what it all comes down to is:

If you've never read the original Conan novels, the first CONAN movie is an excellent movie. The blood, the gore, the MUSIC, Arnie... the body 'n face paint, epic. EPIC!

I'm basically a fan of anything OLIVER STONE scripted in the 1980's (Scarface, Conan, Midnight Express, Year of the dragon) -- all fantastic. He was probably drugged out of his mind when he was typing his stuff out, but that's obviously when he's at his best.

Now, Conan The Destroyer..... LAME. I guess when I was 12 it was good.

[dionbrother]

There is very little of Oliver Stone's script left in Milius' version. Stone boasted that his script was closer to Howard's stories and could have launched a sword and sorcery answer to the James Bond series. It's reportedly excellent, and there are some PDFs and summaries out there in cyberspace.

[mpm74]

That would of been great if they made 10 movies with Schwarzenegger as Conan.

After CONAN THE DESTROYER.... i don't know. =D

dionbrother: Okay, I guess I gotta get my facts straight. So bascially, CONAN is John's creative freedom?

[Michael L.]

I read the same ERB biography and I think the author overstated ERB's racism. Using modern PC viewpoints on century old work is a personal indulgence. Not saying the original Tarzan text don't have their racial issues or insensitivity, but they are hardly anything like The Turner Diaries! ERB was typical of his time.

I haven't read a Burroughs' biography... just his works. In the early Tarzan novels (I can't get through the series even though I've read all of the Barsoom, Venus, Caspak and Pellicudar books) he makes the black Africans out to be more primal than the animals in the jungle. It's pretty bad and when you compare them to Haggard, who was actually writing almost three decades earlier, it looks even worse. With a very few exceptions, I don't read modern fiction; I only read non-fiction and pulp stuff. My books shelf is all Conan, Bran Mak Morn, Lensmen, Doc Savage, The Shadow, Fu Manchu and such... but the Tarzan stories struck me as particularly unpleasant when it came to race.

[Michael L.]

Destroyer could of been better, all it needed was some tweaking in the writing, editing, and story. Some script and character modifications, they almost had a good sequel. They could of made some more money with some good follow ups. Red Sonja is a good example of another success in the 80's barbarian movies.

Success meaning what? 'Cause that movie cost like twice as much as it grossed.

[mpm74]

He probably meant success with the critics and viewers. =D

But yeah, I'm sure that movie made some good money.

[Michael L.]

I think it cost $15 million and grossed like $8 million.

But I'll admit they got the price of a ticket out of me and my brother!

[dionbrother]

Milius essentially made Conan a criticism of California hippie cult culture. One author called it "Lil Abner Vs. the Moonies."

Stone's script had Thulsa Doom(snatched from the Kull stories) leading an army of snake men.

DESTROYER's original script by Thomas and Conway was reportedly good, but heavily rewritten for camp and lower budget FX.

Michael L.: The Tarzans I remember most are the later ones, which got more fantasy oriented with Tarzan encountering lost cities of Romans, Knights (where a character faints upon encountering a black African in knight armor and British accent in a terrific satire of racism), etc. and the racism was never as pronounced as in the earlier novels. Often Tarzan is aided by the Waziris. I haven't reread the earliest ones since I was 10. It's hard for me to read Burroughs these days, other than the Barsoom novels, because his prose hasn't aged well, probably why most of his work is out of print. I guess I had more patience for it when I was younger. I have a similar problem with Walter Gibson. But Lester Dent and Howard hold up fine for me and I've got some of Page's SPIDER volumes to tackle.

[dionbrother]

I should say I'm still stunned by how many older fans of kung fu movies are also devotees of Doc Savage, Conan and other pulp heroes. Guess the pulp paperback reprint boom coincided with the rise of kung fu cinema in the 1970s.

[dionbrother]

Saw CONAN in the theater when I was 10. No exposure to the character other than a few Marvel comics. I found it plodding and boring, except for the giant snake sequence and the village massacre. After the umpteenth shot of Conan pondering the riddle of steel at the clouds, my dad turned to me and said "Hell, this ain't nothing like the books!"

Then I read "Red Nails" and realized the movie blew it.

I gave it another shot on dvd and still found it dull yet there is some good Milius dialogue("Plenty of time for peace in the Grave!"), but everybody's favorite lines are swiped from Harold Lamb's GENGHIS KHAN bio!

Said it before and I'll say it again: the Poledouris score is classic and probably makes the movie what it is.

[ShaOW!linDude]

I haven't read a Burroughs' biography... just his works. In the early Tarzan novels (I can't get through the series even though I've read all of the Barsoom, Venus, Caspak and Pellicudar books) he makes the black Africans out to be more primal than the animals in the jungle. It's pretty bad and when you compare them to Haggard, who was actually writing almost three decades earlier, it looks even worse. With a very few exceptions, I don't read modern fiction; I only read non-fiction and pulp stuff. My books shelf is all Conan, Bran Mak Morn, Lensmen, Doc Savage, The Shadow, Fu Manchu and such... but the Tarzan stories struck me as particularly unpleasant when it came to race.

I'd encourage you to put this on your Xmas wish list.

http://www.amazon.com/Tarzan-Forever-Edgar-Burroughs-Creator/dp/0743236505/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1292026873&sr=1-2

Very well written bio of ERB. A very accomplished man. I mean....they named a freakin' town after him in California. Also, he and his son were responsible for filming some of the old b&w stock footage of dogfights between Japanese and US planes in WW2. It does a great job of covering the books he wrote.

As far as his sense of racism goes, from what I remember the biographer explained it this way. ERB was not a believer of miscegenation: marriage or cohabitation between a white person and any member of another race. Often he would put his damsels in peril with the threat of kidnapping and rape or forced marriage by someone of another race. Granted, that was a pretty thematic plot device he used in a good portion of his stories, Tarzan and otherwise.

I can't say I necessarily agree with your statement that ERB made black Africans out to be more primal than the animals in the jungle. Tarzan was initially less civilized than the African tribesmen he encountered. He killed one in order to obtain clothing for himself because he realized he was going about buck-naked. Plus, whenever Tarzan fought, his ferocity was more the equivalent of jungle primality than that of the tribesmen. Especially when he had amnesia (which was also a pretty thematic plot device he used in a good portion of his stories). But that's not to say ERB always cast black Africans in the best light either.

Sadly, I no longer have my collection of ERB books. I lost that wing of my library when my house flooded in '03.

[Michael L.]

What I am specifically thinking of is in one of the first couple of books when Tarzan encounters cannibals and spends time observing their village. He can't understand their language and I believe a direct comparison is made between the cannibals (who are black) and the animals of the jungle who wouldn't eat their own. I thought I still had the book saved on my Palm but I don't... so I'm not sure which one it is for sure but I am thinking maybe Beasts of Tarzan. It just left a really bad taste in my mouth, especially since it was reading the Allan Quartermain stories that convinced me to give the Tarzan series another try.

[dionbrother]

The books aren't that good anyway and Im glad the movie wasn't a trendy blockbuster. It filled a gap in that time. People that played Dungeons and Dragons and Fantasy buffs were really hyped about that film. I like the feel of the movie, not everyone is going to like it. Ashame you couldnt enjoy the movie Dionbrother, but that's not my problem. Some people don't even like Fantasy movies at all, many Americans wouldn't watch a kung-fu movie even if you put a gun to their head.

How are the books not good? Howard's work is back in print and selling very well. Stories written pre-1936 are still selling. Even Tolkien admitted to enjoying the Conan stories. You can no longer read an article about the Conan remake without a mention of the original Howard stories (thanks to THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD's cult dvd popularity). If you were talking about all those hideous pastiche Conans by Robert Jordan, L. Sprague DeCamp or others, I'd agree. D&D wasn't the fandom awaiting that movie, the Conan comic books and paperbacks were huge in the 1970s. The original, bastardized, re-edited Conan paperbacks sold in the millions! I didn't like the movie for the same reason I don't care for the Pierce Brosnan 007 movies: it's a mediocre representation of an exciting literary escapist character.

I enjoy fantasy films, from Harryhausen's work to the original ZU, WARRIORS FROM THE MAGIC MOUNTAIN, to THE THIEF OF BAGHDAD. CONAN is a dull movie and barely influenced by the source material. A movie faithful to "People of the Black Circle" or "Red Nails" would knock you on your ass. No "Riddle of Steel" or "You kill my faddah, you kill my muddah!" shite. Is it much of a fantasy film, aside from visual thefts from KWAIDAN, a giant snake and a witch, it's more a weird treatise on Nietzche and samurai ethos, and endless shots of the same stuntman falling off horses. Not much to do with barbarians.

[Jesse Smooth]

Slightly off topic, but I'm glad there are still books that are catered to men and still selling.

[Michael L.]

I enjoyed Lord of the rings book way way better than the Conan books I read. I know people that played D&D in the 70's and they loved CONAN the Barbarian movie. I'll admit the movie isn't perfect, but not too shabby for 1982. I am glad they added THulsa Doom, and Im glad they showed Conan wasn't a heartless ass who could give a shit about his parents.

Lord of the Rings? I hate those books... they are like Dune with swords. I'd rather read CS Lewis or Lloyd Alexander. If I want to deal with a reworking of the Nibelungen Saga I'd much rather listen to Wagner's operas!

[Michael L.]

This is going to sound condescending but I really don't mean it to be... Have you read any of his books for adults or just the Narnia books?

[ShaOW!linDude]

I recommend "The Screwtape Letters".

[dionbrother]

Slightly off topic, but I'm glad there are still books that are catered to men and still selling.

The recent reprints of Howard's books got plugs in the men's magazines, rare for any fantasy-oriented reprint. Not as well known, but deserving of attention are the reprints of Harold Lamb's fiction about heroic Cossacks, Mongols, pirates, and even Moslem warriors. Hopefully they'll get around to reprinting his historical biographies as well. I ate up the Genghis Khan bio when I was 10. Lamb later script doctored some Cecil B. Demile bible movies. A fascinating and near-forgotten author. Hope somebody can reprint Karl Edward Wagner's Kane novels as well.

You should also check out Richard Marcinko's books. He collaborated with two different espionage writers and writes the most accurate counter terrorism action scenes and creative use of profanity in any book ever!

Back in the 80s, the men's adventure paperbacks were a huge business, and they essentially capsized by the 1990s. I noticed most of it is these days is done as a self-publishing venture. I want to check out Matthew Bracken's libertarian, borderline sci-fi books. They are loved by the gun nuts (of which I am becoming one) so that's a ringing endorsement for me.

[dionbrother]

I enjoyed Lord of the rings book way way better than the Conan books I read. I know people that played D&D in the 70's and they loved CONAN the Barbarian movie. I'll admit the movie isn't perfect, but not too shabby for 1982. I am glad they added THulsa Doom, and Im glad they showed Conan wasn't a heartless ass who could give a shit about his parents.

Conan's parents were never murdered in the stories. The original Conan would not have been on the wheel of pain for more than an hour. He'd escape the chain and kill the slave driver. Another cool scene Milius missed. Conarnold is a passive, clumsy oaf that can't even kill Rexor in their first dual. One scene that got it right: when he bit the vulture during crucifixion. Straight out of "A Witch Shall Be Born." That got the one huge cheer from the audience. Imagine how more scenes straight out of the stories could have improved the movie.

Some fans made excuses in 1982: "You can't do Conan as written, the audience would not like him." Ahem, bullshit!

When Stone turned in his more faithful script, there was talk of Charles Bronson playing Conan! That's how different Conan was in the stories. He was more Clint Eastwood's bounty hunter in the Dollars trilogy than a passive oaf.

Recent movies that are closer to Howard's stories in tone and style: CENTURION and APOCALYPTO.

Don't care for LORD OF THE RINGS. Liked them more when I was a kid, but I just don't have a liking for the high fantasy genre these days.

[ShaOW!linDude]

Here's some news I found.

http://www.superherohype.com/news/articles/113203-ron-perlman-details-conan-role

I'm intrigued.