Member Takuma Posted March 1, 2011 Member Share Posted March 1, 2011 I hated the Beat Takeshi version but I loved the ICHI film The exact opposite for me. Kitano's version was awesome from start to finish, save for the CG blood. Ichi on the other hand was terribly disappointing, with the only positives being the fun Zatoichi reference you mentioned, and Ayase's good looks. Otherwise I thought the action was average at best (too damn much slow motion), the characters and acting terrible, and the storyline so forgettable that I really can't remember anything about it anymore... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member daisho2004 Posted March 1, 2011 Author Member Share Posted March 1, 2011 Well I actually enjoyed both of those movies! But like you said chanbara the Marriage part in this movie is about 5 minutes and that is in the beginning. I don't want to ruin what happens you do have to see it for yourself. This movie was slow at times I do have to say that, except for the fighting scenes which were OK nothing great but decent. Still nobody can match Shintaro Katsu with a cane sword in his hand. I just feel a lot of Zatoichi fans aren't going to be happy with the ending of this movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WuxiaFan Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 My review of ZATOICHI THE LAST contains spoilers! Still nobody can match Shintaro Katsu with a cane sword in his hand. I just feel a lot of Zatoichi fans aren't going to be happy with the ending of this movie. Daisho - you are correct on both statements! First let me say that I'm a huge Zatoichi fan and love the original 26 movies and TV series that Katsu Shintaro did. In my mind, Katsu IS Ichi. So, any other rendition of Zatoichi will always be compared to Katsu's. With that said, I fall in the camp that loved Beat Kitano's ZATOICHI (2003). I also loved the female version of Zatoichi, ICHI (2008). I had very high hopes for this version and couldn't wait to watch it. I can't tell you how disappointed and disgusted I was with this version of Zatoichi! In a nutshell, I thought it sucked! When it was over, I was "WTF was that?!" Katori Shingo's Ichi was weak, timid, apologetic, clueless, and I didn't buy that he was even blind! I also didn't like Shingo's swordplay. IMO, it wasn't convincing and it just looked like he learned it to just do the moves for the movie. In just about every fight scene, Shingo's Ichi seemed to get his ass kicked! In the real Zatoichi movies, he didn't take shots very often and he certainly didn't get his ass kicked. In "run of the mill" fights against yakuza thugs, Katsu's Ichi NEVER got cut. It was only in some of the finales where he may have gotten cut. Another thing that really annoyed me was all of the apologizing that Shingo's Ichi went around and did. It seemed that after every yakuza he killed, he apologized to someone about it! WTF is that? The real Ichi never apologized for killing yakuza. He hated the yakuza. Shingo's Ichi also killed in front of the son (where Ichi was staying) and consequently, in front of women. Katsu's Ichi made a point never to kill in front of children and if at all possible, not in front of women. I'm not expecting new renditions of Zatoichi to be carbon copies of Katsu's Ichi, but the character has to be true to who Ichi was. Beat Kitano's Ichi was true to that. Beat's Ichi didn't take shit from anyone, he was a badass, and he certainly was not apologetic to killing (or blinding) the yakuza! Neither was Katsu's Ichi - EVER! ZATOICHI THE LAST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member daisho2004 Posted March 10, 2011 Author Member Share Posted March 10, 2011 WuxiaFan: You know I really tried to keep my post tight, and not bash this new take on Zatoichi. But your post is really excellent and you did point out a lot of stuff I didn't. I really want to watch it again, but its hard with the way it ended for me to really like all that much. Yes it does stand out on its own, but I really wish it would've been the beginning and he was still mastering his Sword Skill then I can see him not being that good, and getting his ass kick! ButI don't know why the Director went with this approach with his character for, it kinda ruined Zatoichi for all us die hard fans. If you never seen a Zatoichi movie then I think you'll like the movie for what it is. It was the same with the Lone Wolf & Cub TV Series the ending blow my mind I couldn't believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator KUNG FU BOB Posted March 10, 2011 Administrator Share Posted March 10, 2011 It was the same with the Lone Wolf & Cub TV Series the ending blow my mind... DAISHO! Please edit your post of that horrible spoiler! A lot of people haven't watched this yet, and you just blurt that out without warning?! Dude! You're a huge, super appreciative fan of the genre- how can you do that to other fans? Now... regarding ZATOICHI THE LAST... I recently watched this, the 30th film based on the character of Zatoichi (if you include the US film BLIND FURY starring Rutger Hauer- a fun flick- and the gender-bending 2008 film ICHI- enjoyable, but not great). The cinematography is beautiful, the characters are compelling, and the acting, music, and sets are outstanding. For the first hour I was mesmerized, but two things interfered with the film maintaining it's initial brilliance. 1. There's some serious pacing problems with the film's 2 hour and 12 minute running time. It could have easily been trimmed of 20 minutes and still had plenty of meat on it's bones. Second, though I really enjoyed star Shingo Katori's performance, his sword work was sadly lacking in speed, power, or any kind of skill, and I found his actions to be unconvincing to say the least. Now I went into the film knowing that no one was going to look like Shintaro Katsu- I mean, he IS Zatoichi as far as I'm (and Wuxiafan, and a ton of others are) concerned. And his katana work is truly superb. And I do know that Katori is a pop group star, not a martial artist. But still, even going in with low expectations for the fighting, I was extremely disappointed. At least there wasn't any BS CGI blood ruining the action ala Beat Takeshi's ZATOICHI (2003) film (which, otherwise, I thought was very good). But, as Daisho previously mentioned,In all of these sword fights there was hardly any blood? Huh... what? Plus, as Wuxiafan stated- why is his character such a wuss in this? It wasn’t true enough to the character. In the films and TV series Ichi is considered a gambling yakuza, and is filled with self-loathing about it. He's tender and kind to women, yet simutaneously thinks himself not “good enough” to settle down when asked… Zatoichi was full of many emotional facets and contradictions. He was so many things that the character in ZATOICHI THE LAST never came close to. Also, the very simple plot becomes a little tangled towards the end in a completely unecessary way, and I hated what I considered to be a cheap shot ending. So, for me, on a 1-10 scale, ZATOICHI THE LAST only gets a 6.5 as a film in general, and a 3 out of 10 as a "Zatoichi film". I'd love to hear everyone else's opinion on the film. What did you other brothers and sisters think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member daisho2004 Posted March 11, 2011 Author Member Share Posted March 11, 2011 KFB: My Bad! Sorry about the spoiler but I'm sure not many People here are ever going to see the completed TV series of LW&C only because the company ruined it the way they put it out! But I did put a spoiler alert on my post... Now as far as Katsu's he was always trying to find a place that he could fit in an stay, but he also realized that he knew in his heart he had to leave for they better of the people as to not cause them any pain or trouble. In Zatoichi 89' the last movie he did I was really hoping he stayed with all those Kids at the orphanage. But he left I was hoping that he stayed and lived his life out with them but it wasn't to be. Now I would've liked to have seen some CGI Blood in this movie it really needed it, it doesn't bother me, that was one thing I thought this new movie was missing and yes I think it did drag on a bit it could've definitely been cut down. Like I said this movie should've been a rebirth of Zatoichi not an ending then we could make up for some of the poor stuff. But otherwise this really was an inexcusable act of betrayal to us loyal fans which should be punishable by committing seppuku! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator One Armed Boxer Posted March 11, 2011 Moderator Share Posted March 11, 2011 With that said, I fall in the camp that loved Beat Kitano's ZATOICHI (2003). I also loved the female version of Zatoichi, ICHI (2008). I had very high hopes for this version and couldn't wait to watch it. I can't tell you how disappointed and disgusted I was with this version of Zatoichi! In a nutshell, I thought it sucked! When it was over, I was "WTF was that?!" Katori Shingo's Ichi was weak, timid, apologetic, clueless, and I didn't buy that he was even blind! I also didn't like Shingo's swordplay. IMO, it wasn't convincing and it just looked like he learned it to just do the moves for the movie. In just about every fight scene, Shingo's Ichi seemed to get his ass kicked! I haven't seen this movie so can't comment specifically, but in regards to your comment I would say that the Zatoichi movies are a reflection of the Japanese movie industry, and I would even go as far as to say a reflection on Japanese culture as a whole. The last Zatoichi movie with Shintaro Katsu was made 22 years ago (if you don't count that movie then you're talking 38 years ago) and regarding Takeshi's version, he has enough money and influence to make the movies he wants to make without any studio interference, much the same way Jackie Chan was immune to the triad influences that operated in the Hong Kong movie industry of the 80's. Back then Japanese cinema was exciting and cutting edge, you had karate movies, yakuza movies, exploitation movies, science fiction movies, and the infamous pinky violence movies. Now, much like Japan itself, it's movie industry has become a diluted and weak shadow of it's former self, with 90% of it's cinematic output pandering to the housewife demographic that make up the majority of the cinema going audience these days. Back then men where men, it was the time of Shinichi Chiba, Yasuake Kurata, and many others. Somewhere along the line Japanese guys lost their manliness, hence the increase in otaku and hentai culture and Japanese girls in general complaining how they can't find a "real man". This movie seems very much a reflection of this change of culture, instead of the quiet but strong characher of Katsu, we get a member of Japan's leading boyband SMAP, Shingo Katori, playing a weak and timid Zatoichi. It seems obvious that this movie is made for exactly the same audience who go to watch movies about mothers making decorative lunch boxes for their children, and movies about opening a new cake shop (a couple of examples or recent Japanese cinema)...excitement and suspense is the last thing I'd expect from the new Zatoichi. This is exactly the reason why there are more female driven action movies in Japan at the moment than there are male....we have Rina Takeda in 'High Kick Girl', 'Karate Girl', and 'Kunoichi', Haruka Ayase in 'Ichi', Aya Ueto in the 'Azumi' movies, and Miki Mizuno in the 'Hard Revenge Milly' movies...femme fetales are where it's at for Japanese cinema. My advice is to ignore this current re-incarnation of Zatoichi and pretend it never happened, the Japanese movie industry seems to have sold out one of it's most cherished characters for nothing more than commercial gain. Rant over....now I have to go back to DVD catching, Tokyo is experiencing a pretty intense earthquake today, nothing on a shelf is safe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Vegeta84 Posted March 11, 2011 Member Share Posted March 11, 2011 Daisho I have a question. SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! From reading your post they actually kill off Zatoichi in this film? If so, how? Also how big of a role does Tatsuya Nakadai have in this film and what happens to his character? BTW it's cool seeing Nakadai in another Zatoichi film, as he was in my favorite one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member daisho2004 Posted March 11, 2011 Author Member Share Posted March 11, 2011 Well I really don't want to ruin exactly happens but everyone so far has been disappointed with the entire storyline. As far as Tatsuya Nakadai he does have a big role in this film and I to was really glad to see him in this movie, he was a Yazuka Boss. I don't want to give away all the storyline, but I mean nobody is really happy with this version of Zatoichi it really ruins this beloved character. He is really weak in this movie, and that is what bothers all of us the most! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member daisho2004 Posted March 11, 2011 Author Member Share Posted March 11, 2011 Here is the trailer for it: http://www.nipponcinema.com/trailers/zatoichi-the-last-trailer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Vegeta84 Posted March 11, 2011 Member Share Posted March 11, 2011 Hmm...thanks for the reply Daisho. Could you tell me one thing though. Does Nakadai die? If so, how? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member daisho2004 Posted March 12, 2011 Author Member Share Posted March 12, 2011 Hey Vegeta84: I sent you a PM on your questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WuxiaFan Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 In retrospect, I should not have posted the ending of ZATOICHI THE LAST out of respect for those that haven't seen it. So, I have edited that paragraph out of my post. My apologies if I ruined the movie for anyone that hasn't seen it. Back then Japanese cinema was exciting and cutting edge, you had karate movies, yakuza movies, exploitation movies, science fiction movies, and the infamous pinky violence movies. Now, much like Japan itself, it's movie industry has become a diluted and weak shadow of it's former self, with 90% of it's cinematic output pandering to the housewife demographic that make up the majority of the cinema going audience these days. Back then men where men, it was the time of Shinichi Chiba, Yasuake Kurata, and many others. Somewhere along the line Japanese guys lost their manliness, hence the increase in otaku and hentai culture and Japanese girls in general complaining how they can't find a "real man". This movie seems very much a reflection of this change of culture, instead of the quiet but strong characher of Katsu, we get a member of Japan's leading boyband SMAP, Shingo Katori, playing a weak and timid Zatoichi. It seems obvious that this movie is made for exactly the same audience who go to watch movies about mothers making decorative lunch boxes for their children, and movies about opening a new cake shop (a couple of examples or recent Japanese cinema)...excitement and suspense is the last thing I'd expect from the new Zatoichi. OAB - you are so spot on that I have nothing to add. That's exactly what the movie was. But I don't know why the Director went with this approach with his character for, it kinda ruined Zatoichi for all us die hard fans. If you never seen a Zatoichi movie then I think you'll like the movie for what it is. OAB answered your question with his post. If you never seen a Zatoichi movie, DON'T start with this one! Watch at least the first 15 of Katsu's Zatoichi movies, then at least season 1 of his TV episodes, then Beat Kitano's ZATOICHI, then Haruka Ayase's ICHI. Then if you want to waste 2 hours of your life that you'll never get back, watch Zatoichi The Last. So, for me, on a 1-10 scale, ZATOICHI THE LAST only gets a 6.5 as a film in general, and a 3 out of 10 as a "Zatoichi film". For me, it gets a -3 out of 10 as a "Zatoichi film" Well my review was not the only one that contained a spoiler... Daisho - Yes, other reviews (at least mine) contained spoilers about the end of Zatoichi The Last, but I think KFB meant to remove your spoiler regarding LWC since that's a different topic. Correct me if I'm wrong, Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member daisho2004 Posted March 15, 2011 Author Member Share Posted March 15, 2011 Yeah WuxiaFan I edited my post as well even though I doubt half of the People on this forum will ever see the entire series of LW&C I had to give them that much respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member daisho2004 Posted March 16, 2011 Author Member Share Posted March 16, 2011 I'm sad to hear the last Zatoichi film is a failure. ShaolinsRevenge: You have to judge it for yourself, what I might not like, you might love! I did like the movie, I didn't love it! I mean its a Zatoichi movie, I do feel they ruined his whole persona, of what we all have come to love about Zatoichi movies. But its still worth watching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member chanbara Posted March 21, 2011 Member Share Posted March 21, 2011 I finally got a chance to see the film over the weekend and although I can't really say I loved it completely, I certainly didn't hate it or feel as betrayed by it as some of you did either. Overall I kind of liked it, although as Kung Fu Bob said it should've been cut down. 2 hours and 12 minutes is just too long. For the most part I thought they stayed true to the spirit of the character, giving him back the humanity that was completely missing from Beat Takeshi's cold and robotic performance. The swordplay wasn't up to the level of the Katsu films, but it didn't completely suck either. And it was great seeing Tatsuya Nakadai as the head villain. The man is a legend and he really added a lot to the film. The ending seems to be what everyone is so upset about, and I can understand that, but once it was announced that this was the LAST Zatoichi I knew what that meant so it didn't bother me. What did bother me was that Ichi was being cut as much as he was in the sword fights. It wasn't completely uncommon for Ichi to be cut in the Katsu films, but it was always by some expert swordsman. In this film it seemed like it could happen pretty easily (the opening scene for example) and by pretty much anyone. I thought that was really stupid and took away from the nearly invulnerable nature of the character as we've come to know him. I also wish the "ending" would've been tightened up substantially. It dragged on way too long. Other than that I would say this is a pretty good re-imagining of the Zatoichi story and worth checking out by fans of the series. If you don't go in expecting it to be as good as the 126 Katsu entries (26 films and 100 TV episodes) like I did, you might just enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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