Member Iron Boat Posted January 2, 2010 Member Share Posted January 2, 2010 The current talk of Gordon Liu's career and why it didn't blow up like it should have got me thinking about other stars and even characters that should have been bigger. I think one of the biggest missed opportunities ever was the character of Pai Mei in Executioners From Shaolin. Yeah I know everybody thinks he is so cool, smooth, and hardcore but in my opinion Lar Kar Leung, the director, did not do enough with him. Basically, in the film Pai Mei is not evil enough. They say he killed Hung's teacher and burned Shaolin but we dont get to see him do it, except for a theatrical staged opening sequence. To me this is the difference between Cheng Cheh and LKL, Cheh would of showed Pai Mei being the bad azz he is meant to be, killing with impunity in the most vile and disturbing ways and while using his invincible kung fu. With LKL, to often you have to use your imagination. Also in this film the end fight is anti-climatic, okay I wont focus again on Wing Ding, but if CC was directing this film, the end fight would of been an epic battle between good and evil. Maybe Hung and his son would of had to bring him down together. Also there would of been no freeze frame ending, it would of been a complete, extended, and convincing death sequence. So basically what I'm saying is when I first started watching Shaw Films I was totally on board with the learning the difference between Movie Kung Fu and real kung fu. I knew that if you wanted to see the real thing you had to pick up LKL films and that if you wanted movie action and blood then go with Cheng Cheh and other directors. However, once I became a collector and amassed hundreds of films, I find myself going back to the CC films more and more and even criticizing LKL films. Reason being is I see it as CC gave the people what they wanted to see, LKL gives the people what "he" wants to see. In so many LKL films they end so anti climatically, even the original 36 chambers has a weak ending. LKL's best film 8 diagram pole fighter, ironically, it has a great ending simply cause its Cheng Cheh style. But getting back to Pai Mei, he, imo, deserved an Avenging Eagle, New One Armed Swordsman type final battle. I'm disappointed, even to this day I want to see Pai Mei as the Darth Vader type villain he should of been. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member LiuBei Posted January 2, 2010 Member Share Posted January 2, 2010 In so many LKL films they end so anti climatically, even the original 36 chambers has a weak ending. LKL's best film 8 diagram pole fighter, ironically, it has a great ending simply cause its Cheng Cheh style. I'm assuming one of the big reasons behind this is that a lot of Shaw Bros. film directors were influenced by old film serials. The same sort of serials that Lucas and Spielberg watched and based their movies on. The difference is that western directors like Lucas/Spielberg were working with a different genre and knew they had to use a conventional film structure. On the other hand Shaw Bros was such a huge company and their movies were directly "connected" by name, genre, and sense of style. So directors were more focused on getting the action down along with creative elements coming from that rather than focusing on narrative or film structure. That's why a lot of the films have an open ended feel to them and anti-climactic endings. They are in a sense all continuous and existing in the same world much like how serials would end on a cliffhanger or a subtle note to only continue in a similar world next time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member peringaten Posted January 2, 2010 Member Share Posted January 2, 2010 Basically, in the film Pai Mei is not evil enough. They say he killed Hung's teacher and burned Shaolin but we dont get to see him do it, except for a theatrical staged opening sequence. To me this is the difference between Cheng Cheh and LKL, Cheh would of showed Pai Mei being the bad azz he is meant to be, killing with impunity in the most vile and disturbing ways and while using his invincible kung fu. With LKL, to often you have to use your imagination.Nah, CC used the the character in Shaolin Rescuers, Shaolin Avengers & Men ft Monastery IIRC - he didn't use him like that. He might have turned up in Two Champs as well - could well be wrong there though without checking. One of these days I'll write a big breakdown of Executioners or Hong Hei Kwan to give it its indigenous title... Thank god it's not a CC film in this particular subject incidence - it goes deep in this one. Depends what you're looking for. I don't think you can say CC wasn't an auteur preoccupied by his own themes & interests in his output - he indulged himself frequently. And all the better for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member KyFi Posted January 2, 2010 Member Share Posted January 2, 2010 SPOILERS Well, the fact that the kid beat Pai Mei in a somewhat easy manner at the end of Executioners was kind of the whole point of the movie, in terms of the martial philosophy that LKL was showcasing. The point was that his father could train for 10 or 20 years, and he still wasn't going to win, because he was just using hard against hard. The kid, on the other hand, got in touch with yin/yang and the Tao of the universe, and blended soft and hard (his mother's Crane and his father's Tiger style), and thus everything was easier for him. That's a pretty important concept in Chinese martial arts, and Chinese culture in general. I think Chang Cheh just wasn't knowledgeable enough about real martial arts to cover it in this manner. That being said, I probably prefer Chang Cheh movies for sheer entertainment value, and I do agree Pai Mei was maybe the best villain ever in the Shaw filmography----it would have indeed been cool to see him as the centerpiece in an all out final fight, Cheng Cheh style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Iron Boat Posted January 2, 2010 Author Member Share Posted January 2, 2010 Nah, CC used the the character in Shaolin Rescuers, Shaolin Avengers & Men ft Monastery IIRC - he didn't use him like that. One of these days I'll write a big breakdown of Executioners or Hong Hei Kwan to give it its indigenous title... Thank god it's not a CC film in this particular subject incidence - it goes deep in this one. Depends what you're looking for. I don't think you can say CC wasn't an auteur preoccupied by his own themes & interests in his output - he indulged himself frequently. And all the better for it. But LKL was so geared towards showing villains as shades of gray, C.C. made them the evil scumbags that film audiences come to appreciate. In CC's shaolin films we get to see Ma Fu Yi become a traitor, we get to see the burning of Shaolin and killing of students and monks. We get to see the villains terrorize the neighborhood and rape women and horses. If the Manchu's were indeed hated during imperial China then show us why. Even in another LKL film, Martial Club, Wang Lung Wei is darn near a good guy, in my opinion, you never do that, thats a no no, never make Wang Lung Wei a good guy. Only in a LKL film would that happen. In Executioners what exactly is the reason Pai Mei is evil? He doesn't do anything but sit in his fortress waiting for Hung to show up? In a C.C. film he would have the Villains engaging in villainous acts throughout the film simply to remind the audience that they are villains. In NOAS, Hero Lung is stealing money, manipulating the public, and executing young swordsmen out of jealousy. In the Shaolin Films, the Manchu's are always engaging in vile behavior, In Boxer From Shantung the villains are engaged in assassinations, money laundering, drugs...etc... Basically its not just about being a kung fu exhibition, its a movie to, and C.C. never forgot that....until his venom films that is. (But even at that time, thats what the people wanted to see, acrobatics) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Iron Boat Posted January 2, 2010 Author Member Share Posted January 2, 2010 SPOILERS Well, the fact that the kid beat Pai Mei in a somewhat easy manner at the end of Executioners was kind of the whole point of the movie, in terms of the martial philosophy that LKL was showcasing. The point was that his father could train for 10 or 20 years, and he still wasn't going to win, because he was just using hard against hard. The kid, on the other hand, got in touch with yin/yang and the Tao of the universe, and blended soft and hard (his mother's Crane and his father's Tiger style), and thus everything was easier for him. That's a pretty important concept in Chinese martial arts, and Chinese culture in general. I think Chang Cheh just wasn't knowledgeable enough about real martial arts to cover it in this manner. That being said, I probably prefer Chang Cheh movies for sheer entertainment value, and I do agree Pai Mei was maybe the best villain ever in the Shaw filmography----it would have indeed been cool to see him as the centerpiece in an all out final fight, Cheng Cheh style. Thats a good explanation of the lesson learned and I am familiar with the moral of the story but I think in terms of film making, it was a bad direction to go in. If you set this guy up to be so excellent a kung fu fighter, you have to have that epic final battle. Heck, there was a way he could of still included the hard and soft lesson and still made the final fight grand. For instance, Fu Sheng, and Chen Kuan Tai at the end of Heroes Two, the way they used Tiger and Stork, he could of done that in Executioners. I know they remade the film as Fist of the White Lotus but I dont see that one as being any better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member KyFi Posted January 2, 2010 Member Share Posted January 2, 2010 Thats a good explanation of the lesson learned and I am familiar with the moral of the story but I think in terms of film making, it was a bad direction to go in. If you set this guy up to be so excellent a kung fu fighter, you have to have that epic final battle. Heck, there was a way he could of still included the hard and soft lesson and still made the final fight grand. For instance, Fu Sheng, and Chen Kuan Tai at the end of Heroes Two, the way they used Tiger and Stork, he could of done that in Executioners. I know they remade the film as Fist of the White Lotus but I dont see that one as being any better. Yep, you've got a good point. I do love the movie and appreciate what LKL was trying to get across, but I agree the ending fight could have been longer and more climactic while still showcasing the philosophical part he was going for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Killer Meteor Posted January 2, 2010 Member Share Posted January 2, 2010 Lau Kar Leung is a pioneer but as an actual director, both of action and films, he's extremely weak. Poor pacing, the numerous absurd freeze frame endings, a limited sense of cinematic technique, and, I'll bite the bullet here, his choreography is dull and sluggish a lot of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member ching li Posted January 2, 2010 Member Share Posted January 2, 2010 I always preferred Chang cheh as a director and his movies. Chang Cheh movies always kept you at the edge of your seats and his characters and actors in his film was well directed. Now I have major respect for sifu lau kar leung, but his movies always annoyed me. The characters and actors seemed to come off as caricreatures and had no direction. So I am not surprise that Pai Mei appearing in a Lau kar leung film would be sort of a let down. I think sifu Lau was more about educating in martial arts with his movies and chang was more about entertaining, which I love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Iron Boat Posted January 2, 2010 Author Member Share Posted January 2, 2010 I always preferred Chang cheh as a director and his movies. Chang Cheh movies always kept you at the edge of your seats and his characters and actors in his film was well directed. Now I have major respect for sifu lau kar leung, but his movies always annoyed me. The characters and actors seemed to come off as caricreatures and had no direction. So I am not surprise that Pai Mei appearing in a Lau kar leung film would be sort of a let down. I think sifu Lau was more about educating in martial arts with his movies and chang was more about entertaining, which I love. That pretty much sums up how I feel as well. It's just that even here at this forum, Sifu Lau gets so much love from the members as if he can do no wrong. I, as you stated, also appreciate that he tried to bring philosophy and moral aspects into the film but it would of been nice to see him combine it more efficiently with action and entertainment. It's almost as if he resented entertaining the audience. I can think of so many different and cool directions he could of taken a film like Legendary Weapons, Executioners, Challenge of the Masters, and even Dirty Ho. But oh well, there's always 5 Element Ninja waiting to bring happiness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Iron Boat Posted January 3, 2010 Author Member Share Posted January 3, 2010 Lau Kar Leung is a pioneer but as an actual director, both of action and films, he's extremely weak. Poor pacing, the numerous absurd freeze frame endings, a limited sense of cinematic technique, and, I'll bite the bullet here, his choreography is dull and sluggish a lot of the time. Well I somewhat agree, the duel at the end of Legendary Weapons for example. I think its one of the most overrated duels ever. Not because the choreography isn't great, but because Kung Fu Film "fanatics" swear by it. To me, I dont think watching Lau and his brother spar is all that interesting. Yes they are using the 18 weapons of Kung Fu but not one guy lands on the other. And whats really annoying are the cuts to Hsiao Huo and even Kara Hui being silly while the fight was going on. I would of liked Legendary Weapons a lot better if they were using those weapons in the same way the Venoms used tridents in Masked Avengers...show me what it can do in a real fight. With that said I dont think Masked Avengers is a great film either but at least it understands that its suppose to be violent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member spearman lo tat Posted January 3, 2010 Member Share Posted January 3, 2010 Well I somewhat agree, the duel at the end of Legendary Weapons for example. I think its one of the most overrated duels ever. Not because the choreography isn't great, but because Kung Fu Film "fanatics" swear by it. To me, I dont think watching Lau and his brother spar is all that interesting. Yes they are using the 18 weapons of Kung Fu but not one guy lands on the other. And whats really annoying are the cuts to Hsiao Huo and even Kara Hui being silly while the fight was going on. I would of liked Legendary Weapons a lot better if they were using those weapons in the same way the Venoms used tridents in Masked Avengers...show me what it can do in a real fight. With that said I dont think Masked Avengers is a great film either but at least it understands that its suppose to be violent. IDK. from the rolling of the credits until the fight between LKL, Hsiao Ho, and Chu Tieh Hu, there were numerous instances of what the weapons could do (ok--mainly during the opening credits lol). as for the fight between LKL and LKW, there were also cases of one fighter disarming the other with various weapons which show the effectiveness of the weapons. i'm not sure what would have been so remarkable had the two brothers skewered each other in that end fight. as for Executioners, i think Hung Hsi Kuan's fight with Pai Mei was the drag-down, pull-no-punches fight. it's just that Hung lost the fight. Hsi Kuan did everything in his power, threw the kitchen sink at Pai Mei, killed a score of men up the steps, and killed Kao (Chiang Tao) before his own demise. This was CC-esque--yet, it just wasn't enough. Tong's (Gordon Liu) resistance was definitely bloody and heroic as well. perhaps there wasn't a strong portrayal of how villainous the Manchu were in Executioners from Shaolin (compared to, say, the portrayal of the Manchu in Five Shaolin Masters or the Japanese in Boxer Rebellion). however, there was no mistaking Pai Mei or Kao or the Manchus as heroes of the film. nuff respect to this thread and to Iron Boat and everybody building on this. y'all have a dude thinking hard on a late Saturday night/early Sunday morning, and it's all good!! Happy New Year!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member BlackLamaFaction Posted January 3, 2010 Member Share Posted January 3, 2010 To me comparing CC to LKL is like comparing Stanley Kubrick to say Michael Bay or Rolland Emerich. LKL makes takes a more artistic and psychological approach while CC is more action oriented, but of course CC films suffer on plot and character development as a result. Is one approach better than the other? That depends on the viewer, I believe cinema needs just as many LKL's, Kurosawa's, and Kubricks as it does CC's, George Lucas's, and Speilberg's. Sometimes your in the mood for action and phenomenal weapons displays, while sometimes great stories with character studies of morality and honor and hero ambiguity are preferable. I love both directors films. But my favorite Pai Mei film is Abbot of Shaolin directed by Meng Hoa Ho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Tosh Posted January 3, 2010 Member Share Posted January 3, 2010 I like both equally, they're two different directors with two different agendas, LKL could of went off and became another CC clone instead he went on to do something different-unique, he had a message about Asian culture and MA in general, some get it, some don't. I think the final fight in LWoC is being misunderstood, LKL's character quit the army because he couldn't stand his students getting killed, he was fighting his brother at the end and didn't want to kill him, he won through superiority. I do admit he takes his humor just a little to far, but when KF comes in no one can do Choreo like LKL, I also like his villains have a sense of humanity to them instead of mindless evil devils. Though sometimes I want the darker side of the world and see everyone go out in a sea of blood, there's still something noble about the herioc death, CC's characters are more tragic and by the end have nothing to live for but revenge, the ending of Boxer from Shantung is a perfect example and one of the best "going out" scenes ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member lillippa328 Posted January 3, 2010 Member Share Posted January 3, 2010 Even in another LKL film, Martial Club, Wang Lung Wei is darn near a good guy, in my opinion, you never do that, thats a no no, never make Wang Lung Wei a good guy. Only in a LKL film would that happen. Heros of the East and Martial Club are 2 of the greatest pieces of kung fu film ever created...both of these films represent what kung fu is all about...WLW's character was perfect...he comes in and you assume he is gonna be evil, when in actuality he just wants to learn and exchange skills the same with the Japanese in HotE...they have a shared mutual respect for one another... im glad for LKL doing his films like he did, because honestly, It works, and works well! yea, the shaw brothers surprising can be annoying, in one extreme case, Dirty Ho...but hey, it leaves open to the imagination... Legendary Weapons fight is great stuff too ,i dont see the reason to complain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Blood Sword Posted January 4, 2010 Member Share Posted January 4, 2010 Pai Mei is far more sympathic character than son of Hung Si Kwan who is quite irrating... LKL indeed should have created Pai Mei as ultimate evil...It`s (kind of) sad thing when in the end one is wishing so-called bad guy wins:tongue: Movie is good though but would have been better if end credits appear after Hung Si Kwan bites the dust:nerd: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Cognoscente Posted May 18, 2021 Member Share Posted May 18, 2021 On 1/2/2010 at 8:14 PM, LiuBei said: That's why a lot of the films have an open ended feel to them and anti-climactic endings. They are in a sense all continuous and existing in the same world much like how serials would end on a cliffhanger or a subtle note to only continue in a similar world next time. That makes it more tolerable - there was always some film around the corner that tied up some loose end even if the casting was different! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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