Fist of Legend-The Best Version?

[chen lung]

"The story is changed in Dimension's version."

How??

Read the Wikipedia page.

[David Rees]

Why is it illegal for you to tell me?....

Have read it...although Wikipedia is hardly the most accurate of places to get info....

Hardly changes the story does it?

A few innacurate translations yes but the plot is the same...It changes the meaning in a few places but to say it changes the story is a bit over the top.

[The Running Man]

maybe it speaks more about your friends if you watch a bad dub rather than the subbed DD?

And what does it say about a person who watches bad subs but pretends they are good ones?

Why is it illegal for you to tell me?....

Have read it...although Wikipedia is hardly the most accurate of places to get info....

I believe chen lung authored the Wikipedia page on it.

A few innacurate translations yes but the plot is the same...It changes the meaning in a few places but to say it changes the story is a bit over the top.

You aren't familiar with the film's story as much as you think you are. The ending is completely changed in the Dimension dubbed and since the DD subs turn full on dubtitles at about the last 1/4 of the movie, then much is changed.

[David Rees]

I am very familiar with the film thankyou very much, i even saw it in the cinema on its initial release and many times since in lots of formats.

I just think saying it changes the story is a ridiculous exaggeration.

[The Running Man]

If you were familiar with the story then you wouldn't be saying that it doesn't change the story.

[gorhama]

Can't we all just get along!!!

I welcome as much info on these movies as possible, so thank you for those letting me know about the dud-titles and slight changes in the story. I would never have known about that. Let's just treat each other with the respect we all deserve and not turn this into a back and forth.

I have the DD version and when I want the fully un-cut version....I'll get that too. I have no problem getting 2 different versions of a movie if they have something to offer. Do I wish one release would have all that I'm looking for? Hells yeah!! Hopefully that will see the light of day sometime in the future. Until then...I'll deal.

[HAZ]

Why is it illegal for you to tell me?....

Have read it...although Wikipedia is hardly the most accurate of places to get info....

Hardly changes the story does it?

A few innacurate translations yes but the plot is the same...It changes the meaning in a few places but to say it changes the story is a bit over the top.

Well, the end of the Dimension/DD DVD says something like "I'm going to see my girlfriend in Japan", and what is really said is "Lets go fight the Japanese in some other city." I don't know why they just didn't translate the film. I don't think it would have been a big deal for them.

Also, there is a really interesting thread about this already. This whole thread is a rehash of that one pretty much.

[blue_skies]

And what does it say about a person who watches bad subs but pretends they are good ones?

Who's pretending? I don't speak Cantonese or Mandarin, so I take the subtitles at face value. While some films will be translated better than others at least with dubtitles you hear the original language and it doesn't sound just wrong, hearing some dodgy fifth-rate "actor" speaking for Jet Li (or whoever).

I'm not defending poorly translated subtitles I'm just saying I'd rather that than an English dub.

[The Running Man]

You're pretending because you keep bringing this up as if this were a plus after I noted otherwise. So it says to me that it doesn't particularly matter to you what the words on the bottom say. As long as you hear a language you don't understand and words appear on the bottom then it's just fine.

So I ask again, what does that say? Particularly when those words on the bottom repeat changes that appear in the dub that you say is bad.

I am not saying this to insult you. I am saying this because if more people were less complacent then maybe some companies wouldn't be so content in dumping out botched releases like this one.

[blue_skies]

Having a subtitled version is a huge positive compared to having an English language voice supplied by an extremely poor voice actor. Obviously I would prefer the film to be accurately translated but the fact of the matter is I still enjoy the film tremendously as the Dragon Dynasty release stands. The story is coherent, the subtitles are not using out of place words talking "ghetto" and there's no rap music.

As I said above it's not the words spoken that I dislike dubs for. It is the voices do not match the actors. Having ridiculously poor actors reading the words but also losing the emotion of the real actor's voice, even if the original actor isn't that good, it makes the performance better.

Also as I said in my previous post I do not speak the language so therefore how can I be pretending. My opinion is based on watching various foreign-language films and as much as I hate reading subtitles - yes I said I hate reading subtitles - I just get much more satisfaction from watching film in its original language with subtitles.

I understand what you're saying but the problem is that martial-arts movies are a niche market and a fair size proportion of people who (do or will) watch these movies do so only because of English Language dubs.

Even those like myself who prefer English subtitled versions often don't realise there's problems with the translation of the subtitles. I only started to realise this after joining this forum so you can imagine how many people don't even know. Regardless unless the subtitles have particularly poor grammar or don't make sense most people aren't going to care, as long as their entertainment is enjoyable. I still consider this Dragon Dynasty release an upgrade but had there been a better release I would have gone for that instead. Unfortunately there is not a choice.

Anyway I'm not sorry for being happy with my DVD replacing a far weaker copy.

[The Running Man]

I understand what you're saying but the problem is that martial-arts movies are a niche market and a fair size proportion of people who (do or will) watch these movies do so only because of English Language dubs.

That's not what I'm arguing. Your opinion on the dubbing in the Dimension version is your opinion. In terms of the Dimension dub itself, the real problems lie in the alteration of the story which then partly get repeated in the subtitles on the DD release.

Even after I point this out, you don't really acknowledge it or seem to care. That's fine. But that says something for there is nothing to gain from hearing people speak in a language you don't understand and have words being presented to you that are not what is being said.

This is one of the problems with the DD release. It along with the other problems of the presentation of the film results in a screwed up repesentation of it. Therefore, like I said before, the only real value in the DD set is in the extras. Saying there is value in how the film is presented just because the previous DVD you own was worse than this doesn't rectify anything. I can easily say that the old Dimension DVD was a good release because my previous copy was on the inferior VHS format. Obviously that is not so. From an objective point of view the DD is a big misfire on the film presentation front.

[Macho King]

The DD wins by virtue of default being the only english-friendly remastered DVD on the market. Lets leave it at that.

[chen lung]

The DD wins by virtue of default being the only english-friendly remastered DVD on the market. Lets leave it at that.

The German DVD is also English-friendly - more accurate subtitles too. It just doesn't have all the extras DD has.

[andy338]

Does anybody actually know why Dimension chose to change what was said at the end of the movie? I don't agree with the notion that it changes the film in any sense in fact it is pretty inconsequential which makes why they did it even harder to understand, surely it would have been easier to just leave it as it was.

When I first saw the movie many years ago I must admit I thought the ending was setting up for a sequel as Chen Zhen goes off to continue to fight the Japanese & so I was surprised that a 2nd movie was never made. I could be wrong but I think FOL wasn't as well received at the time of release as had been hoped so any chance of a sequel would have been scrapped (if one was ever intended - i'm just guessing). With this in mind it could be that after revisiting the movie years later it could have been decided to conclude it by saying that Chen Zhen went off to live with his girlfriend which also ties up the loose end as regards what happens to her after she goes back to Japan. Does anybody know if any of the original production team had any input in Dimensions decision, would they need permission to alter anything?

[dionbrother]

When Dimension originally acquired the film in 1995, the HK company screwed them over by only giving them the rights to the English dubbed version. When Dimension inquired about a subtitled print, the studio said "No, you have to buy that version." Working with HK companies back then was often a chore.

So the changes may have been part of the export version, which Dimension worked off of. At the time, it was not unusual for export versions to be somewhat different. Collecting Jackie Chan movies in the old days was often a game of multiple foreign versions that rivaled collecting Jess Franco's work.

[chen lung]

When Dimension originally acquired the film in 1995, the HK company screwed them over by only giving them the rights to the English dubbed version. When Dimension inquired about a subtitled print, the studio said "No, you have to buy that version." Working with HK companies back then was often a chore.

1995 seems a very early date. I would have thought it was around the 'Romeo Must Die' era (1999-2000).

They did tell me a few years ago they only had the rights to the English versions, but that statement contradicted cases of a Cantonese-inclusive (albeit rescored) 'Iron Monkey' and hearing a clip of 'Drunken Master 2' with the Mandarin soundtrack play during the interview of Jackie on their disc (unless they weren't allowed to use it on the main feature). Perhaps the Criterion LD of 'Police Story 3' had the original Cantonese soundtrack because they paid for it (or just had a beef against Dimension exclusively)?

All the same, keeping schtum just doesn't help them. Perhaps there would be more understanding if they had explained, but at the same time, it could be considered a bit unprofessional and could cause friction with the studio they're working with.

However, it still doesn't excuse the appalling treatment elsewhere - crap artwork, terribly cliché soundtracks and improvised translation where Cantonese was included in their releases. If cuts must be made, then integrate seamless branching to accommodate those who wish or demand to see the original. You may want to use the English or rescored version to appeal to an audience that may not appreciate the original, but again, DVDs have another ability - they can carry multiple soundtracks.

With regards to DD, it could have been something similar, they obviously tried to rectify this. The whole thing is odd - 'Tai Chi Master' includes the film uncut (using an export version for its visuals - just a difference in credit language I believe), but rest are Dimension's version with abridged soundtracks, whereas 'My Father Is A Hero' didn't have one at all. Maybe it was budget or something, but I don't think they deliberately excluded it.

So the changes may have been part of the export version, which Dimension worked off of. At the time, it was not unusual for export versions to be somewhat different. Collecting Jackie Chan movies in the old days was often a game of multiple foreign versions that rivaled collecting Jess Franco's work.

They can be different (more in cases of alternating footage though), but it's more likely Dimension changed the ending because I'm not sure if the 'rule' has the hero continue after faking his death in film (could be wrong). Still, it was still a big change and I do protest.

[The Running Man]

It's been a while since I've seen the original Fist of Legend English dub, but I remember thinking that it was closer to the original dialog than the Dimension dub.

[dionbrother]

FIST OF LEGEND was acquired in 1995 by Quentin Tarantino's Rolling Thunder division. The plan was to release a dubbed VHS tape, and a subtitled, Cantonese laserdisc. Laserdisc were still a viable market at the time. A friend of mine was contacted by Gerry Martinez, RT's art director and executive in charge of selecting movies (or something like that), to provide some artwork and photo material, because...get this...RT was given nothing by the HK company! Just a English dubbed print. The frustration led to FIST sitting in limbo until LETHAL WEAPON 4 led to the dubbed FIST getting dumped on Dimension video. I think my friend's laserdisc cover provided the artwork for the VHS and dvd box.

Now my only copy of the film is the HK vcd, so I couldn't tell you how the current DD version differs from what came before. But this is the real history of the movie with Dimension.

Don't be shocked by how long the US release sat on the shelf. Miramax acquired the rights to Jackie Chan's movies in 1991, and sat on them until New Line Cinema rebooted Chan's US market appeal in 1996.

[blue_skies]

That's not what I'm arguing. Your opinion on the dubbing in the Dimension version is your opinion. In terms of the Dimension dub itself, the real problems lie in the alteration of the story which then partly get repeated in the subtitles on the DD release.

Even after I point this out, you don't really acknowledge it or seem to care. That's fine. But that says something for there is nothing to gain from hearing people speak in a language you don't understand and have words being presented to you that are not what is being said.

This is one of the problems with the DD release. It along with the other problems of the presentation of the film results in a screwed up repesentation of it. Therefore, like I said before, the only real value in the DD set is in the extras. Saying there is value in how the film is presented just because the previous DVD you own was worse than this doesn't rectify anything. I can easily say that the old Dimension DVD was a good release because my previous copy was on the inferior VHS format. Obviously that is not so. From an objective point of view the DD is a big misfire on the film presentation front.

As I said before I would prefer an accurate translation of the movie (which would obviously correct any alteration to story) but as far as this goes the story isn't massively altered (as far as I can remember from reading this thread).

Having loved the film since seeing the dimension dub, in spite of an awful English dub, I have always enjoyed the story, the action and of course rated it as one of my all-time favourite Jet Li films... If not one of my favourite all-time martial-arts films. So I suppose I'm not awfully fussed because this is how I know the film. Repeating myself again, if at the time of purchase of the Dragon Dynasty edition I had known of and been able to get hold of a better English friendly version I would have.

Regardless that the film hasn't been completely re translated it is still an extremely solid release. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Could and should Dragon Dynasty have made the effort/spent the extra money making sure the film was uncut and properly translated? Yes.

I still believe there is value in how the film has been presented this time over my previous DVD. This has to be true if I gain extra enjoyment out of my new DVD over the previous. The same could be said about watching my region 2 Dimension DVD was more pleasurable than my old recorded off the telly (digital TV) VHS tape. The same as can be said of said copy off the telly over my previous copy recorded on to VHS from a less impressive analogue signal. Each and every time an improvement on the last presentation.

Clearly we have different viewpoints and there is little point in rehashing this over and over, so let's agree to disagree.

[Killer Meteor]

As I said before I would prefer an accurate translation of the movie (which would obviously correct any alteration to story) but as far as this goes the story isn't massively altered (as far as I can remember from reading this thread).

Having loved the film since seeing the dimension dub, in spite of an awful English dub, I have always enjoyed the story, the action and of course rated it as one of my all-time favourite Jet Li films... If not one of my favourite all-time martial-arts films. So I suppose I'm not awfully fussed because this is how I know the film. Repeating myself again, if at the time of purchase of the Dragon Dynasty edition I had known of and been able to get hold of a better English friendly version I would have.

Regardless that the film hasn't been completely re translated it is still an extremely solid release. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Could and should Dragon Dynasty have made the effort/spent the extra money making sure the film was uncut and properly translated? Yes.

I still believe there is value in how the film has been presented this time over my previous DVD. This has to be true if I gain extra enjoyment out of my new DVD over the previous. The same could be said about watching my region 2 Dimension DVD was more pleasurable than my old recorded off the telly (digital TV) VHS tape. The same as can be said of said copy off the telly over my previous copy recorded on to VHS from a less impressive analogue signal. Each and every time an improvement on the last presentation.

Clearly we have different viewpoints and there is little point in rehashing this over and over, so let's agree to disagree.

I don't think the dub changes the story other then the final outcome.

[andy338]

I don't think the dub changes the story other then the final outcome.

I agree with Meteor it's a tiny thing really & it really doesn't affect what we've seen on screen in the rest of the film, I feel to disregard the entire DD release because of an incorrect subtitle translation at the end is a little harsh.

[chen lung]

I agree with Meteor it's a tiny thing really & it really doesn't affect what we've seen on screen in the rest of the film, I feel to disregard the entire DD release because of an incorrect subtitle translation at the end is a little harsh.

It is unfortunate that the release is half-baked, but I don't consider this change in character motive to be tiny - will he:

1) continue to fight invasion?

2) give up and be with his woman?

[HAZ]

I agree with Meteor it's a tiny thing really & it really doesn't affect what we've seen on screen in the rest of the film, I feel to disregard the entire DD release because of an incorrect subtitle translation at the end is a little harsh.

I felt wholly cheated by the change. You don't even have to speak Chinese to hear the name of the city that Jet Li is going to next. It's just a matter of taste. Ghosting, interlacing, PAL to NTSC, etc... never really get on my nerves. I find DVD so cruddy compared to 35 mm that watching one "good" DVD vs another makes no significant difference for me. I'm picky about subtitles, though. I'm funny that way I guess.

[andy338]

It is unfortunate that the release is half-baked, but I don't consider this change in character motive to be tiny - will he:

1) continue to fight invasion?

2) give up and be with his woman?

I guess this type of thing will bother some people more than others & I agree it's best to have subs as accurate as possible but that said chinese speaking friends often tell me that as the languages are so different to english there is often alot lost even in the best translations. I'm sure most readers on the forum are aware that both mandarin & cantonese are tonal languages with many slight nuances in delivery that can change meaning so the subs are never going to be 100%.

[HAZ]

I guess this type of thing will bother some people more than others & I agree it's best to have subs as accurate as possible but that said chinese speaking friends often tell me that as the languages are so different to english there is often alot lost even in the best translations. I'm sure most readers on the forum are aware that both mandarin & cantonese are tonal languages with many slight nuances in delivery that can change meaning so the subs are never going to be 100%.

That's all true, but he says the name of the city that he's going to. Vancouver, Melbourne, New York. You can speak any language you like, but a name of a city is a name of a city.