Member Alexandra Posted October 2, 2011 Member Share Posted October 2, 2011 I think this is one of the most underrated movies ever, I remember loving the dirty bootleg video copy I got hold of in 1993, the sheer madness of the choreography, how awesome Adam Cheng is (the footwork he unleashes when he has the spear fighting Fu Sheng's nine ring broadsword is mindblowing). Yes it goes a bit mad halfway with the emperor and the trip to Rat island, but it is genuinely funny something you cant say about most kung fu comedy. I also love the fact that this movie is connected to House of Traps as Chin Siu Ho is playing Fu Sheng's character Pai Yu Tang-he even asks a masked Black Fox (Kwok Choy)if he is Chan Chao (Adam Cheng's role). The scene that destroyed me in Cat vs Rat wasn't even a fight, the scene just before the spear vs broadsword fight, with the calligraphy brushes and the holder is the DEEPEST piece of martial arts instruction in ANY kung fu movie EVER made and an example of Pops's directorial genius. As for complaints about Lau si-fu's other movies-come on!! My Young Auntie is the best kung fu comedy (alongside Treasure Hunters) and has my favourite fight ever-Pops vs The Mayor. Eight Diagram Pole Fighter is simply the greatest movie ever made and a perfect example of a "KUNG FU MOVIE" becoming something unique. This movie has been discussed in AFS thread...because there are several opinions about it. I adore this comedy, I think is brilliant, the couple "Fu Sheng-AdamCheng" is absolute astonishig, the rythm of the lines and action is so fast that only good actors and a clever director could carry on, because is very hard to do. I loved too the scene of the destroyed calligraphy with the brush, and all the movie as a whole. Is a masterpiece of kung fu comedy. Just paying attention to the movements of Fu Sheng (prequels of many "Xerox Actors" as I say) he was a predecessor of many comedy touchs, and Adam Cheng is simply sensational. I expressed too many times my opinion about 8 Diagram Pole Fighter not only in AFS thread but in other place, is a masterpiece of kung fu cinema. Understand "comedy" is very hard, the limits between ridiculous or comic is tiny, and not all the people is able to catch the finesse of some comedians. Of course is a matter of taste but c'mon, common sense too. Fu Sheng was a great comedian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member popsjnr Posted October 3, 2011 Member Share Posted October 3, 2011 I read in some of the earlier replies that people are saying that a knowledge of Hung Gar helps in appreciation of Pops's (Lau si-fu) work...CRAP!! I have been learning Hung Kuen for 16 years BECAUSE of my love of Pops's movies, not the other way round-"Oh I've begun Hung Gar NOW I can UNDERSTAND Lau Kar Leung's movies, I was BLIND and now I can SEE....praise be!!" Through watching Pops's movies I decided the style he knew was the one I wanted to learn, at the time I was practising other styles, but my decision had nothing to do with not comprehending the complexities of Pops's movies-good guy meets a bad guy, they fight, bad guy is too tough, good guy does some training and beats him up- WOW TOO COMPLEX!!! I started watching kung fu movies when I was 10, in 1983, and Return to 36 Chamber was my 1st Pops movie, in the following few years I saw ALL the Warner Brothers Shaw releases, but I didn't ONCE think I NEEDED to know Hung Gar to revere the history, choreography, and style of Executioners or 36th Chamber or Martial Club etc etc, I knew they were beautiful hardcore shapes movies long before I started Hung Kuen in 1996. Do you need to ride a horse to love westerns???....no!!! Do you need to be a geek to like Star Wars....hmmm?? I know many kung fu fans who love Pops"s movies and dont train ANY martial arts at ALL is there devotion to this legendary man, any less than a person who trains Hung Gar or a.n.other style?? I dont think so!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member peringaten Posted October 5, 2011 Member Share Posted October 5, 2011 I read in some of the earlier replies that people are saying that a knowledge of Hung Gar helps in appreciation of Pops's (Lau si-fu) work...CRAP!! I have been learning Hung Kuen for 16 years BECAUSE of my love of Pops's movies, not the other way round-"Oh I've begun Hung Gar NOW I can UNDERSTAND Lau Kar Leung's movies, I was BLIND and now I can SEE....praise be!!" Through watching Pops's movies I decided the style he knew was the one I wanted to learn, at the time I was practising other styles, but my decision had nothing to do with not comprehending the complexities of Pops's movies-good guy meets a bad guy, they fight, bad guy is too tough, good guy does some training and beats him up- WOW TOO COMPLEX!!! I started watching kung fu movies when I was 10, in 1983, and Return to 36 Chamber was my 1st Pops movie, in the following few years I saw ALL the Warner Brothers Shaw releases, but I didn't ONCE think I NEEDED to know Hung Gar to revere the history, choreography, and style of Executioners or 36th Chamber or Martial Club etc etc, I knew they were beautiful hardcore shapes movies long before I started Hung Kuen in 1996. Do you need to ride a horse to love westerns???....no!!! Do you need to be a geek to like Star Wars....hmmm?? I know many kung fu fans who love Pops"s movies and dont train ANY martial arts at ALL is there devotion to this legendary man, any less than a person who trains Hung Gar or a.n.other style?? I dont think so!! Are we mocking me for saying hung kuen practice gives a deeper appreciation earlier in thread "blind, now can see" stuff? I'm not trying to claim any elitism. I'm not trying to state a non-practitioner wouldn't enjoy it equally as much. I would however not deny LKL's films have a depth that is only "absolutely" accessible if you practice some, or endeavour further. That's a factor which sets him apart; you can't build a house (or southern stylist) without foundation; hung is his. That foundation props everything he does. I think you're simplifying too much with good/bad/train/fight analogy. Are you telling me you don't gain understanding for your personal practice studying the way he approaches aspects on film? It can be cyclical. It's definitely not necessary to enjoy the work, but when do people ever really question all of the facets - let's take the first chamber of the 36th... what does this tell us about the manner in which they represent training foundation? Surely an outcome derived of this sort furthers appreciation? Subjectively, for me, of course. I'm no better than any others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member RogueWarrior Posted October 5, 2011 Member Share Posted October 5, 2011 not to mention, movies are made to entertain the masses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member popsjnr Posted October 6, 2011 Member Share Posted October 6, 2011 As I say the bottom line of pops's movies is as obvious as I said-good,bad etc-I loved pops movies when I was just a schoolkid in the 80's long before I even knew he was a Hung Kuen si-fu, my ambition to study Hung Kuen was lit when I discovered this. But to say I found any hidden meanings in pops movies after I began Hung Gar is nonsense...I began to recognise techniques certainly definitely. Anyway I understand your enthusiasm with your connection to your si-tai-gung Lau Kar Leung, I feel the same way when I watch movies about my si-tai-gung Lam Sai Wing like Magnificent Butcher-but I know any kung fu fan feels the same and gets the same buzz I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member peringaten Posted October 6, 2011 Member Share Posted October 6, 2011 RW, sure movies are made to entertain... of course, that was Shaws' forte. Have you seen that Red Trousers docu with an LKL interview though? He states first-hand he wasn't so bothered about the commercial side; his primary preoccupation was to exalt martial arts, says if he did that he considered the work a success regardless any other reception or commercial/critical acceptance. Popsjnr, of course the meanings aren't hidden, they're there for all, laid bare, just depends on levels of understanding what you get out I guess, like anything. Some might think "weird funny esoteric training", some might really adapt some principles; everyone wins if they enjoy it. It's like jazz; music speaks to anyone, but maybe musicians will appreciate the theoretical complexities that go into the melting pot of a "Giant Steps" more than most for one analogy, but do you want to explain it as soul or command... there's an enjoyment or appreciation open to anyone if they want to dig deeper, their reaction can grow, positive or negative, if something's genuinely thoughtful & insightful, quality not necessarily at first fully recognised until absolutely mined, positive appreciation can grow. Let's take the beginning of Challenge of the Masters. Characters behind are the 12 Bridges of hung kyun... LKL represents through Gordon his take on their principles over the course of the opening. If I watch it without any kung understanding what do I get out of it; if I watch it with kung understanding what do I get out of it? Both give something. Dig deeper & it's a whole world of meaning. Surely. It's like forms - people don't always get them - anyone can appreciate athleticism, but what can you derive when you understand form operation properly as mnemonic document of technique, drills & application? Some think they're dancing, some know how to use them as conditioning & more... It's not only recognising technique, LKL's films are full of history, principals, application, etc., it's a frequent template. Sure there's training, but how are they training? Or moving? Approach to technique informs nicely. You state good/bad, but LKL wasn't just that simple, not like most of his peers black & white approaches for certain - for instance Martial Club - at which point is Wang Lung Wei actually a villain? At which point is Robert Mak properly a goodie? All the characters/schools have their deliberate motivations & reactions. It's about moral character, fallibility & redemption. LKL's films always dealt with this sort of stuff, Challenge, Heroes ot East, Legendary Weapons, etc.. Good or bad seems more the way your moral character is changeably swayed both polars in LKLs works; particularly through control of the self. Kung fu. What's Gordon's first move in the alley? It's not physical. Most of the characters & situations he uses are based within the history & legend of the systems or present his take on certain viewpoints. If you get them, it's very telling. If not, it's probably a bit esoteric, yet entertaining all the same. Look at Executioners - is hung hei goon fully a hero? As presented he's obstinate, stubborn & refuses to adapt to the relaxed technical principles his wife & others understanding offers; toils away breaking himself down. He has to die to make way for new understanding & development. And not only hung hei goon is open to interpretation in that one. Everything is always. Are not characters sometimes metaphorical? Depends which way you read it, either way anything creative is fully open to subjective interpretation - look at the source which derived it for one. Surely? LKL's a fucking well of good stuff, these movies are a hung based contribution derived from one proper helmsman's deepest understanding, whether he's my dai sigung or not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member RogueWarrior Posted October 6, 2011 Member Share Posted October 6, 2011 FYI, I know Hung Ga pretty well. This is me (I am with the spear and in black long sleeves on the 2 man sets) and yes, I still train till this day. (coming on 30 years) Yes, LKL movies are very deep for those in the know and yet entertaining for the non martial artist. Nice post peringaten. You explained it well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3NIWJq4Xok http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1kcTEzx5Mw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member peringaten Posted October 6, 2011 Member Share Posted October 6, 2011 Nice videos RW! Just checking out some of your others - you have very good technique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member clfnole Posted October 6, 2011 Member Share Posted October 6, 2011 Always liked YC Wong's hung kuen. Also nice that you guys have some pek kwar in your system from Gan Dak Hoi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member RogueWarrior Posted October 6, 2011 Member Share Posted October 6, 2011 My Sifu is a good man. Good skills too. Wow, I had a nice head of hair back then!!! Thanks for the kind words. I must train harder! (I just did Pek Kwar Do this Am too!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member popsjnr Posted October 6, 2011 Member Share Posted October 6, 2011 I see you mention Executioners and the presentation of Hung si-jo's staid character, our lineage doesn't make any mention of Hung Wen Ding and that the combination of Fu Hok was Hung si-jo's work (although the actual form was created by Wong Fei Hung). I dont recall any mention of Hung si-jo's son in any lineage chart, and my teacher has never spoke of a son or his influence. Mark Houghton, Lau si-fu's English disciple, also states the Fu Hok technique comes from Hung si-jo and that si-jo succeeded in killing Pak Mei, although si-jo died from his injuries incurred in the battle and also asks why the son isnt on any lineage chart?? (this is on the audio commentary of the U.K release of Kickboxer/Once Upon a Time a Chinese Hero). I believe that Executioners from Shaolin is an stunning movie, but I dont take the story as gospel truth. Again I love pops movies (ALL OF THEM-I wouldnt have written an article dedicated to him in the last Eastern Heroes magazine if I didnt or even bothered to learn Hung Kuen) and I love to see how he utilises the Hung Kuen in his choreography...but hidden deep meanings only for Hung Gar stylists??...no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member peringaten Posted October 6, 2011 Member Share Posted October 6, 2011 Of course Executioners isn't gospel truth; I don't think it matters if any of the characters ever even existed. Hung folklore, extrapolation & creative licence. My point is I see how they work metaphorically as principles that work in practice; subtle or obvious, doesn't matter - they are in part representative hung tenets in this presentation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member RogueWarrior Posted October 6, 2011 Member Share Posted October 6, 2011 I mentioned this somewhere else on these boards. Notice Gordon Lius character in Executioners uses Dragon, Snake and Leopard but not the other 2 Hung animals in the opening? I thought that was clever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member 18JadeArafats Posted October 10, 2011 Member Share Posted October 10, 2011 Whoooaaa, that is clever. And as good an excuse as any to go back and watch that movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member gravedigger666 Posted October 11, 2011 Member Share Posted October 11, 2011 Again I love pops movies (ALL OF THEM-I wouldnt have written an article dedicated to him in the last Eastern Heroes magazine if I didnt or even bothered to learn Hung Kuen) and I love to see how he utilises the Hung Kuen in his choreography...but hidden deep meanings only for Hung Gar stylists??...no. I am not sure do I have last eastern heroes..Was it one where was article about Fu Sheng too? If you are Chris I enjoyed lot reading your reviews in EH, tho now thx to dvd-time and getting actually hold of them (shaws), disagree some(not many) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member popsjnr Posted October 11, 2011 Member Share Posted October 11, 2011 Yes I am Chris who used to write for Eastern Heroes (and the last issue was the one with my Fu Sheng and pops pieces in it-the Fu Sheng piece has been posted on the Alexander Fu Sheng thread recently)-as for not agreeing with some of my reviews--good, everyone is entitled to their own opinion just as I am, some people love Jet Li movies, I cant stand him or his films!! One man's classic is anothers piece of shit!!It would be a boring world if we all liked the same movies and this forum would be dull too!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member gravedigger666 Posted October 11, 2011 Member Share Posted October 11, 2011 Yes I am Chris who used to write for Eastern Heroes (and the last issue was the one with my Fu Sheng and pops pieces in it-the Fu Sheng piece has been posted on the Alexander Fu Sheng thread recently)-as for not agreeing with some of my reviews--good, everyone is entitled to their own opinion just as I am, some people love Jet Li movies, I cant stand him or his films!! One man's classic is anothers piece of shit!!It would be a boring world if we all liked the same movies and this forum would be dull too!! I`m not huge fan of Jet Li..Shaolin temples are decent, ouatic#1 too.Besides those I like only dragon fight and kiss of the dragon.Have not bothered to check out all tho, too much wires and storylines do not appear interesting either often..I remember in one EH when you applaused sword stained with royal blood, it took me actually 2 years to get vhs copy of it, but worth the wait.Now on dvd/internet era did found out there are better ones but during time it was still one hell of a movie.And still is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member popsjnr Posted October 11, 2011 Member Share Posted October 11, 2011 Yeah those old Malaysian bootleg prints going around in the early 90's were great...I remember it took me 3 or 4 watches of Sword Stained thru the fuzz and blotches on the vhs print to figure out the story so I could write the review. Never thought back then there would be a crystal clear version on vhs (let alone vcd, or DVD which didnt exist then). Now Sword Stained is my no1 Venoms movie, Kwok Choy was never better, and its no longer painful to have multiple viewings, which you could never say about the tape!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member gravedigger666 Posted October 11, 2011 Member Share Posted October 11, 2011 ^I do not have mag at hand but I think it was toby russel short review in EH who made me to track down The Young Avenger.EH was truly great mag, I miss so badly those days of EH and MIHK video label.Of course I cannot complain thing almost everything available easily these days. but it was experience 20 years ago to get hold of new EH or video tape of kf movie... Well, did you teach jackie drunken fist?I recall there was one photo of you and jackie posing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member popsjnr Posted October 11, 2011 Member Share Posted October 11, 2011 No I certainly posed Drunken style, then I heard a rush of wind, that genuinely sounded like a shapes movie, and suddenly Jackie was doing it too...Toby put the video footage of the whole thing on his rarescope release of Cub Tiger From Kwangtung. Yeah those days were good except for working in the shop which was 90%bad, the best time there was just before it shut down, and meeting Kwok Choy about 10 times while he was making the Bond movie. I preferred it when DVD took off and all the companies were releasing stuff, and you coukd buy stuff in Chinatown-and when the Shaws came out I was there every fortnight until 2007 when EVERY DVD shop shut??. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Alexandra Posted January 6, 2012 Member Share Posted January 6, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Eastern Evil Posted January 7, 2012 Member Share Posted January 7, 2012 Lung Tien Sheng has a small part in this, right? I'll have to watch it again. he is becoming one of my tope 5 favorite Shaw Brothers actors. Fan mei Shen is on the list also for his crazy eyes Well, that is 3 Shengs on my list. 1 Alexander Fu Sheng 2 ku Feng 3 LungTien Sheng 4 Phillip Kwoc 5 Goo Goon Chung 6 Fan Mei Sheng 7 Bruce Tong 8 Lu Feng/Chiang Sheng (4 Shengs, I guess!) It's 4:30 AM & I need sleep. back to this later. Glad to see a few threads bumped today/yesterday. This is a great site, but I wish people would post more often!!!! Goiod night & Happy New Year to all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member MarsHarmony Posted January 7, 2012 Member Share Posted January 7, 2012 Lung Tien Sheng is in Cat vs. Rat and I think he was having fun with his part. I like him too, he's in four of Fu Sheng's films and he has a great part in Boxers Adventure with Meng Fei, and many others of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member popsjnr Posted July 10, 2012 Member Share Posted July 10, 2012 Here's my Thai original poster for the movie autographed by Lau Kar Leung in 2002 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaEgb_4iP5o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Eastern Evil Posted July 10, 2012 Member Share Posted July 10, 2012 'The Avenging Eagle'. Nice touch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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