Cat Versus Rat

[Blood Sword]

I think you and I have very similar taste and preferences,

yes,mate:wink:

[peringaten]

I don't think Lady Is The Boss goes too far - I'd argue My Young Auntie goes much further with the silliness; the dancing & wig scenes, etc... Lady is the Boss has superfluous stuff like the bike scenes & disco camera stuff, but that's just being entertainingly creative I guess; if anything the ridiculous comedy seems much more satirically purposeful in Lady than it might initially suggest; the silly '80s stylings & characterisations seem more an indictement on that sort of behaviour & the creeping lack of traditionalism & growing irreverence towards kung fu values that comes with commercial westernisation, whilst eventually stressing a need to embrace change. It seems like he's mocking folk who don't take kung seriously with the ridiculous characters in this one, rather than just being comedically ott. Says a lot about his values.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Yeah it is preference, but I agree with you on some.

Executioners- you got me there

36th Chamber- close to a perfect movie in my mind. A couple slow not great scenes right after he leaves the temple.

Legendary Weapons. I can't say I'm a fan of this movie. Some good fights.

Dirty Ho- other than the transvestite and the cripples scene, I think it’s a perfect movie. Love the fights with Liu on a crutch and in the chair.

My Young Auntie- I can’t disagree with you here. Still cool to see Lau Kar Leung in one of his finest moments in the final fight.

Martial Arts Shaolin- I haven’t seen this in awhile but I don’t remember liking anything other than the end fight.

You seen Return to 36th Chamber iron boat? Probably my 2nd or 3rd fav LKL movie.

[peringaten]

Executioners From Shaolin: Everything is fine until Enter the Wing Ding.

I hated Wong Yue in this film before, now I think he is one of the strengths of the film. He is supposed to be somewhat effeminate, he represents the two sides of the ying & yang in one, the soft & the forceful, the tiger & the crane, that make up a pillar of the hung kuen system; the character is pure metaphor embodied. I hate the complaint I sometimes see that he doesn't forcefully stand up to Chen Kuan Tai's character in this film - that isn't the point; CKT playing a legendary founder of the system lacks his evolution. Embrace the "Wing Ding".

[Iron Boat]

I don't think Lady Is The Boss goes too far - I'd argue My Young Auntie goes much further with the silliness; the dancing & wig scenes, etc... Lady is the Boss has superfluous stuff like the bike scenes & disco camera stuff, but that's just being entertainingly creative I guess; if anything the ridiculous comedy seems much more satirically purposeful in Lady than it might initially suggest; the silly '80s stylings & characterisations seem more an indictement on that sort of behaviour & the creeping lack of traditionalism & growing irreverence towards kung fu values that comes with commercial westernisation, whilst eventually stressing a need to embrace change. It seems like he's mocking folk who don't take kung seriously with the ridiculous characters in this one, rather than just being comedically ott. Says a lot about his values.

I actually like the Masquerade Ball scene in My Young Auntie, it was funny. If the movie would of just stayed a comedy it would of been fine. In the case of this film, making it serious was the problem.

[Blood Sword]

Considering in most of his movies there is no killing and relationships between people+comedy are really important to LKL..makes me wonder did he ever feel uncomfortable working in CC movies because those are in different area,people almost always grave serious(except fu sheng and david chiang characters) and rarely all heroes survive.

[Blood Sword]

Martial Arts Shaolin- I haven’t seen this in awhile but I don’t remember liking anything other than the end fight.

Is this the one with Mantis Fist in the end fight?or was it part1?

[Iron Boat]

I hated Wong Yue in this film before, now I think he is one of the strengths of the film. He is supposed to be somewhat effeminate, he represents the two sides of the ying & yang in one, the soft & the forceful, the tiger & the crane, that make up a pillar of the hung kuen system; the character is pure metaphor embodied. I hate the complaint I sometimes see that he doesn't forcefully stand up to Chen Kuan Tai's character in this film - that isn't the point; CKT playing a legendary founder of the system lacks his evolution. Embrace the "Wing Ding".

Well I do understand what Wing Ding represents and how it reflects the teaching that LKL wanted to get across, but for me, you just simply can't take away Chen Kuan Tai and give my Wong Yue. LKL needs to remember that its still a film, it's still an entertainment medium, not everyone who watches it plans to study kung fu. So it is true he doesn't stand up to CKT in this film, but Wing Ding doesn't stand up to the character of the mother either. Its hard to see how He and She could produce a Wing Ding.

[peringaten]

Even 36th Chamber, after he leaves the temple becomes metaphor for characters & legends of the hung system being embraced into it; I guess you have to care more for the background of the art to get more out of it than just the action. LKL really was indulging his system, legends & backgrounds into the creative outlet.

[Iron Boat]

Yeah it is preference, but I agree with you on some.

You seen Return to 36th Chamber iron boat? Probably my 2nd or 3rd fav LKL movie.

Yes I have seen Return to the 36 Chamber and I think its probably my 2nd or 3rd favorite LKL film as well. I dont like Hsiao Hou's teeth in this film, its annoying to look at but the choreography in this one is brilliant. To be honest, I like it cause its a true Gordon Liu centered film. I realize my favorite LKL films are the ones that LKL are barely in or not at all.

[peringaten]

LKL needs to remember that its still a film, it's still an entertainment medium, not everyone who watches it plans to study kung fu.

He doesn't necessarily. Kung fu is what LKL knows; why should he water it down further for commercial reasons? He's already done this enough, if you can't get on board with the rest that's your issue, of course. There's plenty enough out there to cater for other tastes; why shouldn't he indulge his background as personally & metaphorically creatively as possible, that's where the man's genius stands - Wending is a result, shame you don't feel it in some part.

So it is true he doesn't stand up to CKT in this film, but Wing Ding doesn't stand up to the character of the mother either. Its hard to see how He and She could produce a Wing Ding.

Your perception; not a truth.

[Iron Boat]

Even 36th Chamber, after he leaves the temple becomes metaphor for characters & legends of the hung system being embraced into it; I guess you have to care more for the background of the art to get more out of it than just the action. LKL really was indulging his system, legends & backgrounds into the creative outlet.

You like the lessons, I like the movie making aspects, climatic endings, storytelling, character development, LKL, imo, sacrifices the art of filmmaking, the flow of the story, and substitutes it with a forced lesson of ethics, morality, and values. So I totally understand what his films are teaching and it does serve a good purpose but I think he should detach his own views sometimes and allow the characters to act within their own universe on film. LKL almost comes across as a narcissist and self indulgent.

[Iron Boat]

Is this the one with Mantis Fist in the end fight?or was it part1?

Nah, its the only Shaw film that features Jet Li, and it has some serious undercranking going on

[peringaten]

You like the lessons, I like the movie making aspects, climatic endings, storytelling, character development, LKL, imo, sacrifices the art of filmmaking, the flow of the story, and substitutes it with a forced lesson of ethics, morality, and values. So I totally understand what his films are teaching and it does serve a good purpose but I think he should detach his own views sometimes and allow the characters to act within their own universe on film. LKL almost comes across as a narcissist and self indulgent.

I'd say an auteur with a overwhelming creative respect for his artform & heritage. We'll just have to beg to differ. I don't think it's possible to 'sacrifice the art of filmmaking', when it's such a subjectively wide-spanning creative medium; it is whatever it is. What's wrong with his morals & ethics? Why shouldn't his characters embody them? Can you truly 'totally' understand his films until you look into the background of them or practice hung kuen a bit - probably not - of course this will ostracise, but all things must in some part.

[Iron Boat]

I'd say an auteur with a overwhelming creative respect for his artform & heritage. We'll just have to beg to differ. I don't think it's possible to 'sacrifice the art of filmmaking', when it's such a subjectively wide-spanning creative medium; it is whatever it is. What's wrong with his morals & ethics? Why shouldn't his characters embody them?

Well for one I don't think that his lessons actually come across all that well in his films. For instance you mentioned the character of Wing Ding and the lesson sounds great on paper but his interpretation on film doesn't come across as very artistic or moving. I'd say he probably should of done a movie about Kung Fu that didn't feature combat at all, but just the lessons, teachings, poetry, studies. In a sense he's done that with Challenge of the Masters but then he adds a fight at the end that fails to deliver a satisfying conclusion.

With the lessons he attempts to get across on film why is there even fighting at all in his movies? As a result the fights have no blood, no deaths, no real anger, and to be honest, no real motivations. In a sense I can see why you support his theories because he is focusing on the spiritual, mental aspects of Kung Fu, the fighting without fighting, growing as a person, self control, etc...but his insistence on comedy, and in many cases juvenile hijinks ruins the delivery.

You may be able to verify if this is true or false but wasn't he released of his directorial duties on Drunken Master II in part because of his in somewhat stubborn film making philosophies?

[Blood Sword]

I have not practiced Hung Gar(only chen tai chi 7 years,over here serious lack of kung-fu schools)but I do not get how training hung fist would make me love more LKL movies.

As the old saying goes,for each his own but what LKL movies often lack is tension building and dramatic endings.

Choreography itselt is work of master,in that area LKL is genius.

[KUNG FU BOB]

Blood Sword said:

Is this the one with Mantis Fist in the end fight?or was it part1?

Yes. At the climax of MARTIAL ARTS OF SHAOLIN Jet Li and his teacher each use Mantis Fist to fight the main villain.

Iron Boat said:

Nah, its the only Shaw film that features Jet Li, and it has some serious undercranking going on

True it is Jet's only SB film, but it does have the scene Blood Sword was asking about.

[Iron Boat]

Yes. At the climax of MARTIAL ARTS OF SHAOLIN Jet Li and his teacher each use Mantis Fist to fight the main villain.

True it is Jet's only SB film, but id does have the scene Blood Sword was asking about.

Oh thanks for the correction, I can only remember the bad guy with a sword, they used mantis fist against that? I have it sitting on the shelf I may have to rewatch it. Got to admit, I didn't like the film but I did like the scenery, those on location shots are amazing.

[Blood Sword]

Those mainland china locations are indeed breathtaking.I have only part2,might be I pick parts 1&3.

[KUNG FU BOB]

Part one is fantastic!

Part 3 is strangely bland. But there are some breathtaking action scenes (and I agree- scenery) including that end fight. The guy that plays the villain there does usually use a sword (and is in fact a master swordsman in real life), but I kind of remember him losing the sword before or shortly after the start of this big fight in this one.

[Blood Sword]

Part one is fantastic!

Part 3 is strangely bland. But there are some breathtaking action scenes (and I agree- scenery) including that end fight. The guy that plays the villain there does usually use a sword (and is in fact a master swordsman in real life), but I kind of remember him losing the sword before or shortly after the start of this big fight in this one.

I remember it`s girl who delivers last strike but besides that(and mantis thing) not much memories of movie....

[peringaten]

I have not practiced Hung Gar(only chen tai chi 7 years,over here serious lack of kung-fu schools)but I do not get how training hung fist would make me love more LKL movies.

Because that's what his movies are about much of the time.

Well for one I don't think that his lessons actually come across all that well in his films. For instance you mentioned the character of Wing Ding and the lesson sounds great on paper but his interpretation on film doesn't come across as very artistic or moving. I'd say he probably should of done a movie about Kung Fu that didn't feature combat at all, but just the lessons, teachings, poetry, studies. In a sense he's done that with Challenge of the Masters but then he adds a fight at the end that fails to deliver a satisfying conclusion.

With the lessons he attempts to get across on film why is there even fighting at all in his movies? As a result the fights have no blood, no deaths, no real anger, and to be honest, no real motivations. In a sense I can see why you support his theories because he is focusing on the spiritual, mental aspects of Kung Fu, the fighting without fighting, growing as a person, self control, etc...but his insistence on comedy, and in many cases juvenile hijinks ruins the delivery.

You may be able to verify if this is true or false but wasn't he released of his directorial duties on Drunken Master II in part because of his in somewhat stubborn film making philosophies?

Interesting points. But in respects his kung fu is hardcore, absolutely about kicking ass, no holding back with applications from forms, etc., quickest takedown possible it seems. With that you have to teach responsibility & humility, that's one reason I find the end fight in Challenge satisfying, in difference to yourself. I'm not saying I find all his comedy entertaining, but he's not CC, canto humour is one of his things... So far as DM2, main reason I heard he left is because he thought Wong Fei Hung should do the style he actually did in real life, Jackie not so much. I don't think this is unreasonable on LKL's part. Wish I had more time to type now, good discussion going on in here, must get to work...

[popsjnr]

I think this is one of the most underrated movies ever, I remember loving the dirty bootleg video copy I got hold of in 1993, the sheer madness of the choreography, how awesome Adam Cheng is (the footwork he unleashes when he has the spear fighting Fu Sheng's nine ring broadsword is mindblowing). Yes it goes a bit mad halfway with the emperor and the trip to Rat island, but it is genuinely funny something you cant say about most kung fu comedy.

I also love the fact that this movie is connected to House of Traps as Chin Siu Ho is playing Fu Sheng's character Pai Yu Tang-he even asks a masked Black Fox (Kwok Choy)if he is Chan Chao (Adam Cheng's role).

The scene that destroyed me in Cat vs Rat wasn't even a fight, the scene just before the spear vs broadsword fight, with the calligraphy brushes and the holder is the DEEPEST piece of martial arts instruction in ANY kung fu movie EVER made and an example of Pops's directorial genius.

As for complaints about Lau si-fu's other movies-come on!! My Young Auntie is the best kung fu comedy (alongside Treasure Hunters) and has my favourite fight ever-Pops vs The Mayor. Eight Diagram Pole Fighter is simply the greatest movie ever made and a perfect example of a "KUNG FU MOVIE" becoming something unique.

[gravedigger666]

^I would not say it`s underrated...Movie is most of time good but kinda direish end fights at island make it did not enter premier league in my book...Very well worth checking out but not top list stuff, just my 1 cent.

[jmungus]

cat vs rat to me is a selection of many fun scenes, charmingly cartoonish crap stage designs, some great fu and a lot of attempts in humour that just wouldnt work. at all.

totally disjointed effort, good time killer any day i dont mind annoying editing and mind numbing senseless staccato shenanigans tho.