Member Alexandra Posted July 23, 2010 Author Member Share Posted July 23, 2010 I would like your observation and analysis of Meng Fei's portrayal of Fang Ta Hung in Cheng Cheh's FIVE SHAOLIN MASTERS(1974)... . My friend, I have not qualified for an authorized opinion, just my point of view from acting and the whole movie. First: For me, to love Alexander and Fei Fei never involves to love without conditions all their movies. I am objective. Since Five Shaolin Masters was shot for Alexander Fu Sheng with a constellation of stars around him, that is to say, in first place Ti Lung, David Chiang, Chi Kuan Chun and Meng Fei, this is one of the movies in his filmography that not convinces me totally. Is a good movie of kung fu, but nothing more. The plot? Very simple, lineal, without great moments. The screenplay? Good, with beautiful landscapes, but lineal and simple too, the shaolin's vs the enemies all the time chaining one fight with other and so. The characters: I took the timing for make a resume, because agree with you in the few minutes on screen for Fei Fei. In this movie, first and foremost, Fei Fei is not the gallant, the heartbreaker, the lovely babyface, the comedian kung fu fighter, the terrible conqueror, the fierce young boxer.... is the simple character of a shaolin practicer, without any of the fantastic clothes or wigs and ornaments that he wore in his Taiwan's movies. Of course the five are concerned, tormented by the destiny of the school, but I watched the movie twice, carefully. The first 25 minutes running time (except one or two minutes for the group itself) is dedicated to Ti Lung. From 35 to 45 minutes r.t., is dedicated to Alexander that plays a character NOT comic, is rogue, is the intelligent one that with sympathy, take information from the enemies (character played by Wang Lung Mei)- Alexander do not made all the times the rol of the comic, dumbie or silly guy. He always is smart, intelligent, rogue, gallant (he never was a copy of Jacky Chan for God sake) and of course, Chang Cheh adored him and put all the cameras and the outfits for him. That is clear, observe the clothes he wears...!!! From 35 to 60 minutes r.t., Fei Fei literally dissapears of the screen, a regretable waist of talent, I don't understand very well what was in Chang Che's mind when he made the contract with those superstars... From 105 to 115/120 minutes r.t., Chang Cheh limits his own limited plot for showing the skills of the five shaolins, Ti Lung with the pole, David Chiang with an weapon like a metal lasso (don't remember the name) Chi Kuan Chun of course making his show of Hung Gar, Alexander a mix between Hung Gar and Choy Li Fat, and Meng Fei a mixture of several southern forms. But few seconds on screen for Fei Fei. That is true. From 125 to 145 minutes the final duel, and observe how the director put the actors confronting the enemy, for a better fight: Alexander with Wang Lung Mei, both fought together in many movies, were friends in the personal life and get along very well each other. Ti Lung and David Chiang fighting with great dramatism agaist the worst of the worst enemies of the evil people. Fei Fei fights with a partner of him in several movies in Taiwan (don't remember now the name). Fei Fei is took off of the camera dying, and Chi Kuan Chun too, and the movie ends. For me, Fei Fei only in one moment shows a tormented one, slightly tormented one: when he rescue the character played by Gordon Liu and getaway for take advice to his partners. The rest of the movie he only says not more than 10 lines, few planes sequences, few of his skills, and few of all. Is not one of my favorites movies, but of course I love it because with few minutes or waisting the talent, Fei is acting together with Alexander and the other stars. Resume: Fei shows a slightly tormented one, for me is more concerned and deeply expressive David Chiang with Ti Lung, but is only my opinion. And is not (for me) the most serious or dramatic character he played. I don't find a wide range of expressions along the movie, just few seconds of concerning and worrying about the situation. Maybe is Che's fault, I don't know. Ah.... after watching this movie several times, counting the last one, I noticed that Fei Fei was not comfortable in this rol and in the cast as a whole. Just a feeling. Alexandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Alexandra Posted July 23, 2010 Author Member Share Posted July 23, 2010 Not only from the aesthetical point of view, but in the desciphrement of the image as an icon, with a "text" (read the interesting works of Aby Warburg) you can discover many hidden secrets. Here, Alexander is the "centrifuge" point, in a glance you can detect him in a second. That is a message. Alexandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member slazenger_7 Posted July 25, 2010 Member Share Posted July 25, 2010 My friend, I have not qualified for an authorized opinion, just my point of view from acting and the whole movie. Alexandra Hola Alexandra, That was an insightful, revealing review indeed! I felt an underlyng sense of guilt in Fei's Fang in the scene of the gathering. It is far more effective in Chinese with English subtitles, as you get to hear Fei's real voice. I thought some of the scenes of Fu Sheng could have been shortened and some more of that added on toward Fei's Fang character. Than the film could have been balanced. It seemed that David Chiang and Fu Sheng had the two largest parts in the film. It is clear that Mr. David Chiang had the most screen time in FSM. Maybe some scenes cut from him and added toward Fei also wouldn't have lessened the film. However, Mr. Chiang's performance was excellent, whereas I thought Fu Sheng's characterization was in some scenes a little too light-hearted to properly suit the overall haunting mood of FSM. Nonetheless, it remains my all-time favorite martial arts film along with Enter The Dragon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member MarsHarmony Posted July 27, 2010 Member Share Posted July 27, 2010 Hola Alexandra, That was an insightful, revealing review indeed! I felt an underlyng sense of guilt in Fei's Fang in the scene of the gathering. It is far more effective in Chinese with English subtitles, as you get to hear Fei's real voice. I thought some of the scenes of Fu Sheng could have been shortened and some more of that added on toward Fei's Fang character. Than the film could have been balanced. It seemed that David Chiang and Fu Sheng had the two largest parts in the film. It is clear that Mr. David Chiang had the most screen time in FSM. Maybe some scenes cut from him and added toward Fei also wouldn't have lessened the film. However, Mr. Chiang's performance was excellent, whereas I thought Fu Sheng's characterization was in some scenes a little too light-hearted to properly suit the overall haunting mood of FSM. Nonetheless, it remains my all-time favorite martial arts film along with Enter The Dragon. I agree, Alexandra's review was quite thorough. I think that Meng Fei's character was riddled with guilt and self doubt ( that's close to being mentally tortured!) in the gathering scene after attempting to rescue Gordon Liu Chia Hui's character, and his new brothers are heaping shame upon him as well, so it is a effective study in fortitude and acceptance. Five Shaoin Masters running time is only one hour and forty five minutes, that's not very long. To cut a moment of it, especially any of Fu Sheng's scenes would be a painful blow to me. The answer would have been to just add a few more scenes with Meng Fei!, that would have been wonderful, more interaction between the five masters would have been a dream come true, but I love it for what it is. Please don't cut a second of this film. Meng Fei Five Shaolin Masters (1974) Meng Fei Five Shaolin Masters (1974) Meng Fei Five Shaolin Masters (1974) Meng Fei Five Shaolin Masters (1974) Meng Fei Five Shaolin Masters (1974) Meng Fei Five Shaolin Masters (1974) David Chiang Da Wei, Ti Lung, Chi Kuan Chun, Meng Fei & Fu Sheng Five Shaolin Masters (1974) Meng Fei & Fu Sheng Five Shaolin Masters (1974) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Alexandra Posted July 28, 2010 Author Member Share Posted July 28, 2010 Hola Alexandra, That was an insightful, revealing review indeed! It is clear that Mr. David Chiang had the most screen time in FSM. Nonetheless, it remains my all-time favorite martial arts film along with Enter The Dragon. Hola amigo Thank you for your words but I only made a simple review. It was simple. I put "you know what" in a seat, feel comfy, and prepared for watch the 145 minutes running time, with paper and pencil (all the time I have papers and pencil and take notes of acting, choreographies, direction, cameras used, angles, making stops, zooms, etc). Resume? Chang Cheh waisted Fei Fei's talent. Simple. And no, counting timing, Ti Lung have more minutes, but almost equal with David Chiang, the "fantastic duetto" of Chang Cheh, totally previsible. And of course we have different points of view, is a good movie but not one of my favorites. Alexandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Alexandra Posted July 28, 2010 Author Member Share Posted July 28, 2010 I agree, Alexandra's review was quite thorough. I think that Meng Fei's character was riddled with guilt and self doubt ( that's close to being mentally tortured!) in the gathering scene after attempting to rescue Gordon Liu Chia Hui's character, and his new brothers are heaping shame upon him as well, so it is a effective study in fortitude and acceptance. Five Shaoin Masters running time is only one hour and forty five minutes, that's not very long. To cut a moment of it, especially any of Fu Sheng's scenes would be a painful blow to me. The answer would have been to just add a few more scenes with Meng Fei!, that would have been wonderful, more interaction between the five masters would have been a dream come true, but I love it for what it is. Please don't cut a second of this film. Mars Sometimes I doubt between kill you or adore you! You always got the target showing in images (and words) what I feel, and your screenshots (as usual) are super ultra mega awesome. The only moment (scenic dramatic tension) where we can find Fei Fei in a deep emotion is there you described and I noticed. Agree with you, more interaction between the five masters and add more scenes with Fei Fei. But you know, I always "fight" with Chang Cheh "conception" of script and rolling... hehehehhe.... Alexandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member slazenger_7 Posted July 29, 2010 Member Share Posted July 29, 2010 Mars But you know, I always "fight" with Chang Cheh "conception" of script and rolling... hehehehhe.... Alexandra I don't know if its fair to call out cinematic grandmaster Chang Cheh for the story and scripting...Because I wonder how much input or decision-making erstwhile Shaw Brothers screenwriter I Kuang had...Or if Shaw production executive Mona Fong influenced I Kuang. Cheng Cheh was one of a kind. Like Hollywood's Sam Peckinpah, he had the propensity to prefer scripts which guaranteed at least half of his heroes, if not all, to be killed off at the end of his films. Of course, the CC and Peckinpah comparison ends there. Peckinpah liked to pick up scripts in which the protagonists were not much better than his villains.Whereas in a CC film, there was no question as to who were the good guys, and who were the bad guys. However, there were a couple of exceptions to this Chang Cheh-I Kuang formula: Blood Brothers(1972) was the most notable. A rare Chang Cheh masterpiece which broke the Shaw Brothers mold. Ti Lung as the refined villain; David Chiang & Chen Kuan Tai as the anti-heroes...A rare gem from Mr. Cheh. However, CC's Five Shaolin Masters had a haunting quality to it which begs proper description, more so than any other Shaw epic, or is it just me...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member slazenger_7 Posted July 29, 2010 Member Share Posted July 29, 2010 I think that Meng Fei's character was riddled with guilt and self doubt ( that's close to being mentally tortured!) in the gathering scene after attempting to rescue Gordon Liu Chia Hui's character, and his new brothers are heaping shame upon him as well, so it is a effective study in fortitude and acceptance. Five Shaoin Masters running time is only one hour and forty five minutes, that's not very long. To cut a moment of it, especially any of Fu Sheng's scenes would be a painful blow to me. The answer would have been to just add a few more scenes with Meng Fei!, that would have been wonderful, more interaction between the five masters would have been a dream come true, but I love it for what it is. Please don't cut a second of this film. Welcome Back! So you do agree that Mr. Fei's character portrayal was guilt-ridden...For a moment there I thought I was reading too much into his performance...To this day, I still think that it is one of the finest Meng Fei performances ever. For the short time slot allotted him, Meng Fei really made the most of his character. OK, I might accept that any Fu Sheng (or David Chiang) scenes needn't be cut, even though his character is really immature, and really doesn't fit in with being called a true Shaolin Master like the other FOUR. In the first scene which Mr. Sheng appears, I found it played out somewhat awkwardly that his character is so nonchalantly playful when he's fighting the Manchus, especially when his fellow Shaolin men were being brutally killed all around him. Revisit that scene again and watch some of the late Fu Sheng's expressions in his opening scene when fellow Shaoliners are being slaughtered behind him...They just seem a little incongruous. That is most certainly NOT Fu Sheng's fault by any means but Mr. Cheh for allowing that, or even prompting it. Or maybe Mr. Cheh was steering the Fu Sheng character in the same direction of Horst Buchholz's immature Chico, in contrast with the older veteran gunmasters like Yul Brynner's Chris; Steve McQueen's Vin; Charlie Bronson's Bernardo; or Jim Coburn's Britt from The Magnificent Seven(1960)... Nonetheless, FSM remains my all-time personal favorite martial arts film. That much hasn't changed in the past 35 years...However, 1 hour and 45 minutes was a perfect running time, otherwise it would have broken the momentum of the film's pace. Also, the film's soundtrack has to be one of the best, if not the best of any martial arts film, with the exception of Lalo Schifrin's Enter The Dragon(1973). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Alexandra Posted July 30, 2010 Author Member Share Posted July 30, 2010 I don't know if its fair to call out cinematic grandmaster Chang Cheh for the story and scripting...Because I wonder how much input or decision-making erstwhile Shaw Brothers screenwriter I Kuang had...Or if Shaw production executive Mona Fong influenced I Kuang. However, there were a couple of exceptions to this Chang Cheh-I Kuang formula: Blood Brothers(1972) was the most notable. A rare Chang Cheh masterpiece which broke the Shaw Brothers mold. Ti Lung as the refined villain; David Chiang & Chen Kuan Tai as the anti-heroes...A rare gem from Mr. Cheh. However, CC's Five Shaolin Masters had a haunting quality to it which begs proper description, more so than any other Shaw epic, or is it just me...? When I write something about Chang Cheh, some misurestandings appears. I respect him as director and godfather of Kung Fu Cinema but I am not a blind fan of him. He made great movies indeed, as you pointed up, Blood Brothers is a masterpiece without doubt. If you watch his way of filming you will find the same formula repeated until boring: the same plane for the guy dying, zoom over the offended one, a long plane sequence waisting time of shot running showing a character leaving a place walking on a route, screen tinted in red when a hero fall death, long plane sequence (often in slowmotion) of the hero in agony, that is wonderful because is HIS style of filmmaking but... I have my point of view. Humble, simple, but I have an critical spirit. Concerning FSM I respect your opinion, but I insist in the acting (not kung fu acting but real acting with actoral work that involves gestures, expressions, etc) I pick up KFo8D. Agree with you in the triangle Ni Kuang - Chang Cheh and Mona Fong, and the interactions between them. I repeat, nobody offends here, I respect Chang Cheh, his career, his talent, etc. Just an opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member slazenger_7 Posted July 30, 2010 Member Share Posted July 30, 2010 When I write something about Chang Cheh, some misurestandings appears. I respect him as director and godfather of Kung Fu Cinema but I am not a blind fan of him. I repeat, nobody offends here, I respect Chang Cheh, his career, his talent, etc. Just an opinion. Hola Sweet Alexandra, Are you and Mengfan, secretly related? Your frame by frame description of Mr. Cheh's directorial style was so accurate, that it almost hurts. LOL... A good title for a possible Chang Cheh book & filmography could be: Heads You Die, Tails I Kill You: The Chang Cheh Experience ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Fang Shih-yu Posted July 30, 2010 Member Share Posted July 30, 2010 Five Shaolin Masters is reasonably put together as a film, and it's (arguably) one of the more accessible movies in Chang Cheh's "Shaolin" cycle where the backstory isn't overly involved! With that in mind, I cast these impressions and observations of what I saw.... There's no doubt Meng Fei did well here; that nice, quiet moment where he plays with the children is a highlight for him, and I'd guess that bit was done by [writer] Ni Kuang, given Cheh's nature. (Was every last "unusual" idea in a script by Kuang and Cheh the concoction of Kuang? It's too easy to say it is, so I won't go there.) Still, I say not only was Fei underused, the same could be said for Ti Lung! Think about it; he was basically extra brawn, and the core of the five (brainy David Chiang and the off-beat duo of Fu Sheng and Chi Kuan-chi) were getting more on-screen time and action! Fei and Lung could've exchanged roles easily and not hurt the picture.... Another notable thing would be the training scenes with the five prior to the final confrontation; in a rare twist, it's like the five are picking through their own brains to work on refining their techniques, and there's no sifu around to guide them! Considering they're heading into a "life or death" situation, some adrenaline rush went deep into their memories, and -- well, we know the rest!... Finally, it seems odd this title wasn't picked up for distribution by an American company for DVD; yeah, that could be said for several of these movies, but this one has that [previously mentioned] quality of an accessible storyline and strong performances from all the players, especially in the fighting scenes! It's an essential buy for Meng Fei fans, most of all; despite the overwhelming forces of the people who put the film together, he shines here, regardless! On first look, his showdown with "Beardy" was a surprise in many ways! (NO SPOILERS!) Too bad the Shaws didn't try to keep him around for a while.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member slazenger_7 Posted July 30, 2010 Member Share Posted July 30, 2010 "Beardy" was a surprise in many ways! (NO SPOILERS!) Too bad the Shaws didn't try to keep him around for a while.... Excellent review of FSM. This was Meng Fei's only Shaw Brothers film, I believe. I remember when I first saw FSM in '75 at Kim Sing theatre in CT L.A., believe it or not, I still remember the audience that night gasping the most when Fei's Fang Ta Hung character (literally) bites the dust in his showdown with Beardy Liang Cha Jen... I mean, there were a lot of key guys dying in that one, Tang Yan Tsan, Gordon Liu, and of course CHI KUAN CHUN's Li Shih Kai...But I vividly remember the audience's gasp at Fei's Fang from that night. You made a very interesting point in that the five have no sifu to improve their skills. They must brainstorm their shortcomings themselves. This, of course, set up rather ambiguous expectations for the film audience of the outcome of these five masters. No one is really sure if these guys can win from the bad guys...And what a collection of villains! Wang Lung Wei, Chiang Tao, Fung Hak On, Tsai Hung, and last but not least, Beardy Leung Kar Yan... These guys looked they slept on beds of nails... I wonder if there were MORE Meng Fei and Ti Lung scenes actually filmed that were later cut out of the final edit. If there were, what a terrific extended version it would make for a special edition reissue of Five Shaolin Masters. If they exist, then they must be locked up in the Shaw Brothers vault or archives. That would be an additional way to make a profit out these SB classics for whoever owns their current copyright...Reissuing extended versions with added scenes to them! I remember they did that with Bruce Lee's Enter The Dragon, in some TV reissues from back in the 80's and 90's...There were a few never-before-shown scenes of Bruce Lee that I saw in ETD... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Fang Shih-yu Posted July 30, 2010 Member Share Posted July 30, 2010 I remember when I first saw FSM in '75 at Kim Sing theatre in CT L.A., believe it or not, I still remember the audience that night gasping the most when Fei's Fang Ta Hung character (literally) bites the dust in his showdown with Beardy Liang Cha Jen...I was definitely surprised, too; a real twist went down in that instant!... You saw it when it first came out? Awesome! Wang Lung Wei, Chiang Tao, Fung Hak On, Tsai Hung, and last but not least, Beardy Leung Kar Yan... These guys looked they slept on beds of nails...The more I see of these guys in movies, the more they impress me. Yeung Kar Yan fares as well in heroic roles as he does playing villains! Fung Hak On? He's quite the utility man! I wonder if there were MORE Meng Fei and Ti Lung scenes actually filmed that were later cut out of the final edit.It's hard to guess about this possibility; I'd theorize from the standpoint of FSM being a Chang Cheh film that this might not be the case. I'd love to be proven wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Alexandra Posted July 30, 2010 Author Member Share Posted July 30, 2010 Hola Sweet Alexandra, Are you and Mengfan, secretly related? Your frame by frame description of Mr. Cheh's directorial style was so accurate, that it almost hurts. LOL... A good title for a possible Chang Cheh book & filmography could be: Heads You Die, Tails I Kill You: The Chang Cheh Experience ... Slazenger! Don't confuss me with others! I am what I am! Ironic huh? Heww, well, I can handle it! Hug Alexandra (Alexandra) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Alexandra Posted July 30, 2010 Author Member Share Posted July 30, 2010 [still, I say not only was Fei underused, the same could be said for Ti Lung! Think about it; he was basically extra brawn, and the core of the five (brainy David Chiang and the off-beat duo of Fu Sheng and Chi Kuan-chi) were getting more on-screen time and action! Fei and Lung could've exchanged roles easily and not hurt the picture.... You noticed something really impressive, this underusing of Ti Lung's character, or at least, vanished in the group, and the absence of sifu meanwhile the three are demonstrating their skills. AHHH! I forgot to say, I love Tang Yen-Tsan, with a friend of mine (I never will say the name) I call him "kissable lips".... Alexandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member slazenger_7 Posted July 31, 2010 Member Share Posted July 31, 2010 . AHHH! I forgot to say, I love Tang Yen-Tsan, with a friend of mine (I never will say the name) You know Mr. Tsan was completely miscast by Mr. Cheh in Seven Blows Of The Dragon/The Water Margin(1972)... I could never see Tang Yan Tsan as a villain. Chang Cheh should have cast him in the role played by Wang Chung... Also, Mr. Tsan is in a bit role in Jackie Chan's The Big Brawl(1980)...Totally wasted in that film... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Fang Shih-yu Posted July 31, 2010 Member Share Posted July 31, 2010 You noticed something really impressive, this underusing of Ti Lung's character....I think the moment the film was cast with two of Chang Cheh's great pairings, the newer, hotter commodity (Fu Sheng and Chi Kuan-chi) would be favored over the "old timers" (David Chiang and Ti Lung). Then, if one goes with the idea that it's believed Cheh favored Chiang over Lung, the result is how the five heroes were used in FSM! I feel there's nothing symbolic about who survived at the end of the movie, as well; the script was probably filmed as is. (I don't envision who would live and who would die was decided the day of shooting or that "alternate endings" were shot, and that's not because of the budget, which couldn't have been very big.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member slazenger_7 Posted July 31, 2010 Member Share Posted July 31, 2010 To cut a moment of it, especially any of Fu Sheng's scenes would be a painful blow to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member slazenger_7 Posted July 31, 2010 Member Share Posted July 31, 2010 To cut a moment of it, especially any of Fu Sheng's scenes would be a painful blow to me. I just finished watching Five Shaolin Masters(1974)...Again. To refresh my memory. And I must reflect that compared to when I saw it as a 9-year-old when it first came out, I have really revised my reaction to Fu Sheng's Ma Chao Hsing character...To a pre-adolescent mind, that character portrayal is the most appealing of the five shaolin masters; he's charming, colorful, and mischievous, while the others were almost dour. But to an adult's perspective, he's almost downright annoying. With all due respect to the late, great Fu Sheng fans out there, and also keeping in mind that this is just a film performance not to be taken personally... Take for instance the scene before Fu Sheng's Ma Chao Hsing gets caught by Wang Lung Wei's Ma Fu Yi...He goes about town openly showing the secret contact code for a bowl of rice or noodles, hoping he might get a free meal as one of the underground patriots opposing the Manchu regime. Another excruciatingly bad moment from Fu Sheng's Ma Chao Hsing character is when the mountain outlaw patriot Kao Fung comes to rescue him from Wang Lung Wei's Ma Fu Yi in the dungeon; instead of helping the Kao Fung character fight off Ma Fu Yi, Fu Sheng's Ma taunts Wang Lung Wei like an immature, silly adolescent. Worst of all, that the very reason Fu Sheng's Ma was captured, because he knew the contact codes of the patriots, is ridiculously revealed three times in a comical manner by Fu Sheng's Ma during the fight...With Ma Fu Yi just a few feet away battling the actor who played Kao Fung. I mean the cocky Kao Fung character and FSM's fight choreographer--Lau Kar Wing--among others, all end up dying to save Fu Sheng's Ma Chao Hsing...And yet it is David Chiang's Hu Te Ti that feels the greatest remorse at Kao Fung's death to save Fu Sheng's Ma, so he won't talk under torture and give away the secret contact codes of the Ming patriots. Chang Cheh and I Kuang should have made the Ma Chao Hsing character a little more mature and responsible rather than the almost annoying, immature lightweight he winds up being in the film. They should have had Alexander Fu Sheng extend his acting range to suit a more mature Ma Chao Hsing, rather than limit and relegate that Shaolin character to cater to Fu Sheng's playful, carefree, and light-hearted screen persona... In sharp contrast, this makes one yearn for more of Meng Fei's Fang Ta Hung character in FSM. Fei's Fang also shows a light-hearted side in that gem of a scene with him playing hopscotch with the little boys and then he allows one of them to ride upon his back like a horse as he gets down on all fours...In that scene, Fei's Fang is appropriately playful and light-hearted and it fits right into the scene. And look at the complexity of Fei's Fang character...In the immediately following scenes, Fei's Fang Ta Hung is riddled with being self-sacrificing; having self-doubt; sense of guilt; sense of resolve and purpose; all rolled into one...And yet Meng Fei's Fang Ta Hung has the least screen time in Five Shaolin Masters...Even less than the Ti Lung character... In re-assessing FSM and my earlier ideology regarding its 1 hour 45 minute running time, this film should have been extended to 2 hours. An additional 15 minutes with the inclusion of more Ti Lung and MENG FEI scenes would have certainly improved the film. In conclusion, in spite of FSM's only real weakness--the Ma Chao Hsing character portrayal--it STILL remains my all-time favorite martial arts film along with Enter The Dragon(1973)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member slazenger_7 Posted July 31, 2010 Member Share Posted July 31, 2010 I think the moment the film was cast with two of Chang Cheh's great pairings, the newer, hotter commodity (Fu Sheng and Chi Kuan-chi) would be favored over the "old timers" (David Chiang and Ti Lung). Then, if one goes with the idea that it's believed Cheh favored Chiang over Lung, the result is how the five heroes were used in FSM! I feel there's nothing symbolic about who survived at the end of the movie, as well; the script was probably filmed as is. (I don't envision who would live and who would die was decided the day of shooting or that "alternate endings" were shot, and that's not because of the budget, which couldn't have been very big.) That is interesting you mentioned the newer, hotter commodity of Chi Kuan Chun and Alexander Fu Sheng... Their Shaw Brothers established screen persona were really a continuation of the screen persona of David Chiang and Ti Lung. Ti Lung was the stoic, serious member of the duo, while David Chiang was the mischievous and colorful member. This formula was virtually repeated with Chi Kuan Chun and Fu Sheng. And one curious thing I wondered about as I just saw FSM again: Did David Chiang's Hu Te Ti actually sacrifice that shaolin courier to the villains? I mean his character Hu literally bows down to his knees in front of the shaolin courier...Did he do this because he knew he was going to sacrifice him to the Manchu bunch, so the courier would be bait in throwing off the villains from going to the mass rendezvous at Red Pavilion with a large army, where the new patriot leader arrived from Taiwan? This way, the courier would steer the villains on to the trail of the five shaolin masters instead... If Mr. Chiang's Hu did do that, then that was a brilliantly ultra-realistic moment in FSM. That courier was sacrificed as bait without his very own knowledge of it...That's the clear impression given in the English-dubbed version of Five Shaolin Masters(1974)... I don't have access to the Cantonese version with English subtitles, right now, to know any different... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member slazenger_7 Posted July 31, 2010 Member Share Posted July 31, 2010 Don't confuss me with others! I am what I am! You meant C-O-N-F-U-S-E...Not, CONFUSS...Even though "confuss" sounds cuter.. I might think you want to CONFESS...As in confession in church...Do you? A kiss and tell confussion maybe ? You know my avatar is the sleeping tiger...Is it wise to awaken him? Hugs always...Slazenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Alexandra Posted July 31, 2010 Author Member Share Posted July 31, 2010 You meant C-O-N-F-U-S-E...Not, CONFUSS...Even though "confuss" sounds cuter.. I might think you want to CONFESS...As in confession in church...Do you? You know my avatar is the sleeping tiger...Is it wise to awaken him? Hugs... You know my spanglish, I write the best I can... I do not need to make any confession. Try you to write zillions messages in castillian, that would be nice! And do you know that I am dragon in chinese zodiac, you dare to provoke him? Heeeew.... Alexandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member slazenger_7 Posted July 31, 2010 Member Share Posted July 31, 2010 You know my spanglish, I write the best I can... I do not need to make any confession. Try you to write zillions messages in castillian, that would be nice! And do you know that I am dragon in chinese zodiac, you dare to provoke him? Heeeew.... Alexandra I know your spanglish, its cute and I wasn't really poking fun at it at all, if thats what you thought. I was just expressing an affectionately frisky appreciation for it, that's all... Also, I could care less if anyone was a dragon or dragoness...First of all, I don't believe in that medieval nonsense. I never did. I just brought it up in this thread for fun...For light conversation. FYI, in the historicity of the so-called Chinese zodiac, it is not nearly as old as people think or what some want everyone to think, even going so far as falsifying its history...It was originally devised in 1227 A.D. by the northern Chinese of the conquered territories of the Jin dynasty, to appease their Mongol overlords, Tolui & Ogodei Khan, sons of Genghis Khan. The original 12 animals were part of Mongol shamanism and did not include the ancient Chinese symbol of the dragon. That was a slightly later addition and replacement, during Kublai Khan's reign (1260-1294 A.D.); this grandson of Genghis Khan embraced Chinese culture unlike his fellow Mongols (especially the ruling Temujin family). Kublai Khan welcomed the inclusion of the dragon symbol into the Mongol-originated animal zodiac, along with other elements from ancient Chinese folklore. The Chinese dragon symbol was introduced in the Mongol-originated animal zodiac in 1268 A.D., with the new reconfigured animal zodiac cycle that commenced from 1264 A.D. The dragon symbol in Chinese culture dates as far back as the Eastern Zhou dynasty (770-256 B.C.). The symbol of the dragon in Chinese folklore was directly derived from the saltwater crocodile of the South China Sea. That is why the Chinese dragon symbol is very strongly associated with water and does not breathe fire, unlike its Western counterpart. In Chinese culture, the saltwater crocodile had gradually evolved into the mythical dragon symbol during the Eastern Zhou dynasty (770-256 B.C.). In Chinese folklore, the dates attributed to the origin of the misnamed Chinese zodiac ranges anywhere from the 1st Century A.D. to the year 2367 B.C. (when China was still in the stone age)...Because of the Chinese resentment of the Mongols, to whom they were subjugated, the Mongolian shaman origin of the so-called Chinese zodiac is virtually forgotten. Consequently, Chinese legends of "their" zodiac origins include the traditional folk tale of when just before Lord Buddha died, he had summoned all animals to pay him their final respects. Only 12 showed. The Chinese zodiac was based upon the order these 12 animals arrived. That is the Buddhist Chinese version. The Daoist Chinese version has it that it was the celestial Jade Emperor who had summoned all the animals to a banquet but only 12 arrived. Consequently, he named a month to honor each of them; the Chinese lunar year is in fact a month, while their 'year' is equal to 12 civil calendar years. It was with the establishment of Kublai Khan's Yuan dynasty, that the Sino-Mongol zodiac ended up being a fusion of cultures; along with the yin & yang principles, the ancient Feng Shui philosophy of the 5 elements of ancient Chinese folklore (earth; metal; water; wood; fire) were fused with the 12 original animal guardian spirits from Mongol shamanism. The order of the elemental cycle originally began with earth, but was later transferred to wood. However, it was from the year 1228 A.D., that the original twelve animal symbols were incorporated into the Chinese lunar calendar which runs in a sexagenary cycle; the Chinese lunar calendar itself was said to have been implemented in the year 1523 B.C., by China's very first official dynasty--the Shang (1766-1122 B.C.); the Shang had previously observed a fundamental tropical calendar. The Mongols left behind two souvenirs sealed upon Chinese culture: the shaman animal zodiac & the dish, Mongolian beef. The original twelve animal guardian spirits were the yang & yin forces of the following six houses of life from Mongol shamanism: Rat (yang) & Ox (yin) = House of Health Cat (yang) & Hare (yin) = House of Wealth Tiger (yang) & Snake (yin) = House of Fertility Horse (yang) & Sheep (yin) = House of Travel Monkey (yang) & Rooster (yin) = House of Wisdom Dog (yang) & Boar (yin) = House of Family What the above represented in Mongol shamanism had nothing at all to do with anyone taking on the personality or characteristics of any of the animal symbols; that was a later Chinese cultural interpretation. It had to do with what one would find success in life. For example, if born during the House of Health, then whichever animal symbol whose year it was, would consequently be the guardian spirit from which to seek success in that aspect of life (i.e. to lead a healthy life). In Daoist Chinese folklore, how the Dragon/Crocodile symbol ended up in their zodiac and how the Cat was excluded is thus: There were originally 13 animals that answered the Jade Emperor's invitation to a banquet, but the Cat was tricked by the Rat, who took the Cat's place in the banquet. The inclusion of the Dragon/Crocodile was never explained, and the subsequent reconfiguration of the Chinese zodiac was also never explained. The Dragon/Crocodile replaced the Tiger's position, while the Tiger was moved to the Cat's position, which was consequently eliminated. In the Vietnamese adaptation of the Sino-Mongol zodiac, the Cat was moved to the Hare's position, while the Hare or Rabbit was eliminated. All unscientific nonsense to me...But some people actually believe in this stuff, so I respect their beliefs...It's just that I don't believe in its credibility... Also, I'll playfully provoke anyone, anytime, or any place...Here or on the moon. Who will stop me? If I act out of line, than the KFCF admin will ban me, that's all. Everyone who joined this thread [with the exception of Ms. Oropesa] was to probably share in their hobbies and past times which happened to be martial arts films...For pleasant diversion. Not to take things personally or over-react to comments and opinions. No one has ownership of any particular thread. That's just silly. We're all adults. We're all having fun here, with the freedom of expressing our thoughts and opinions...No need for ultra-sensitivity, just as long as proper social etiquette is observed. And I don't think that I have violated that particular rule or guideline... And finally... Dragons are a myth. They never existed. Tigers are no myth. They are very real... But its time the sleeping tiger wake up and exit this thread for awhile...Or maybe even permanently... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Alexandra Posted July 31, 2010 Author Member Share Posted July 31, 2010 I know your spanglish, its cute and I wasn't really poking fun at it at all, if thats what you thought. I was just expressing an affectionately frisky appreciation for it, that's all... Everyone who joined this thread [with the exception of Ms. Oropesa] was to probably share in their hobbies and past times which happened to be martial arts films...For pleasant diversion. Not to take things personally or over-react to comments and opinions. No one has ownership of any particular thread. That's just silly. We're all adults. We're all having fun here, with the freedom of expressing our thoughts and opinions...No need for ultra-sensitivity, just as long as proper social etiquette is observed. And I don't think that I have violated that particular rule or guideline... And finally... Dragons are a myth. They never existed. Tigers are no myth. They are very real... But its time the sleeping tiger wake up and exit this thread for awhile...Or maybe permanently... Well, I played a game, I failed, sorry. I wont to talk so far, the people on this thread (that anyone is the owner) is free for post feelings or sharing experiences, we are human beings, we need the interaction. Ultra sensitive? Maybe, so, sorry again. But not more words for me, very interesting your details about chinese zodiac. Alexandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Alexandra Posted August 3, 2010 Author Member Share Posted August 3, 2010 I am posting here the movie's versions of Chu Liu Hsiang interpreted by Meng Fei, character created by Gu Long and popular in several television series: (Taiwan) Everlasting Chivalry (1979) (俠影留香) (Taiwan) The Sun Moon Legend (1980) (新月傳奇) (Taiwan) Legend of the Peach Blossom (桃花傳奇) (Taiwan) Meng Fei (not translation of this name)(1982) 楚留香之彈指神功 0SGQA4AH8DU If someone have more information about those versions, welcome! Alexandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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