The Chor Yuen Experience

[Iron Boat]

This isn't my first thread about Chor Yuen, I have attempted to analyze his pictures and filmaking before. Sometimes I have a lot of positive things to say but today negativity consumes me. I really should leave Chor Yuen alone and stop criticizing so much, but darn it I can't help it. So here goes another rant.....

You know as much credit as we give Chor Yuen, I respect his work and all but at the same time I'm dissapointed with a lot of his films. Thing is, whether its a Gu Long adaptation or not, why are so many of Chor's films a drag? With the type of talent at his disposal, action directors, martial artists and actors, his films had the potential of being some of the best ever. In addition, he had other directors around him working simultaneoulsy, Cheng Cheh and Sun Chung were bringing amazing stories and action to their films, yet he churned out so many "Chore" films.

Yes the cinematograpy was often beautiful, the cast were attractive, the wardrobes were excellent, but where's the fun? Adapted from a long novel or not, his films were still suppose to be martial arts pictures but that ironically is where the films suffer. The action in a majority of his films is so so. Swordsmen jump across the camera, a couple of clash cling here and there and the fight is over, or somebody's dead, the choregraphy was too simple. What I hate most however is when a swordsman is defeated and about to give information to hero, some assassin from behind a tree or something kills him with a dart. Okay so why not throw that dart at the hero rather than the guy who was about to spill the beans?

Here's why I'm upset today, the last Shaw I purchased was Pursuit of Vengeance, why and how could this not turn out to be one of the most kick azz films of all time? This is the follow up to Magic Blade which was pretty darn good. You got Ti Lung playing Fu Hung Szeh, a bad azz, Lo Leih, killers for hire, this should be an exciting film, yet I'm sleep 30 minutes in!! Who cares about Goat Milk anyway?? What happened to all the great action that was in Magic Blade, the linear storyline, the great scenery, the achieve my destiny concept? Why did Yuen have to make it all wierd and convuluted? It should of been a straight forward martial arts kick azz flick.

I also dislike that Chor Yuen never includes travel sequences in his films. Character A says go to Happy Mansion, quick cut, next scene Character B is at Happy Mansion. Its like that in too many of his films, no in between sets or transitions. It makes me miss films like Have Sword Will Travel were you actually go on the adventure with the characters. Or Avenging Eagle were there's real horses and a real landscape to explore.

But to say something nice in this rant, when a Chor film is done right, its a pleasure to behold, Films like Killer Clans, Death Duel, and the aformentioned Magic Blade are some of my favorite Shaws. Just wish the rest of his adaptations where on this level.

[wuxiawuxia]

A few things...

- Because most of his films were adapted from wuxia novels, no way a 90 min film can capture hundreds of chapters in the novel. He had to speed them up, showing only important scene to move the story.

- It's not meant to be kungfu, one day if you have a chance to read the novel, you'll discover that the fight scenes in the novel are also quick, imaginative, somewhat superhuman. (definitely did not look one of those Kungfu films with heavy hand-to-hand combat), so he's actually successful in bringing the written fights into the visual format.

- Most target audiences at the time already knew the story from reading the novels, no need to tell them the details.

- Chu Yuan's films are never about the martial arts (go for Lau Kar Leung) for that , he's always about beauty, poetic feel, dreamy wuxia world, color and contrast, great script and powerful (although heavily abridged) script from the original novel itself.

When I watch Chu Yuan's film the main point is always about the stories (I guess it helps that I already know the story from reading the books). If you have sometimes, read the novel (many have been translated into English), you will realize that his approach is different than other directors.

Chu Yuan's films do not revolve around hardcore martial arts scenes like Chang Cheh/Lau Kar leung, the martial arts scenes are rather just one element of it. His focus has always been the overall beauty, the poetic visual representation of the Chinese novels (his source material).

Just my two cents.

[peringaten]

I'm most bemused with how lazy much of Tong Gaai's choreo is with Chor, subpar, considering the greatness of much of his work otherwise.

[xianzai]

Thing is, whether its a Gu Long adaptation or not, why are so many of Chor's films a drag?

One reason is he got burned out directing too many films. The earlier one of his wuxias was made, the more likely it will be good. Certainly anything he made after 1979 is something I expect to be of questionable quality.

The action in a majority of his films is so so. Swordsmen jump across the camera, a couple of clash cling here and there and the fight is over, or somebody's dead, the choregraphy was too simple.

So watch the Shaw Brothers films which are martial arts demonstrations masquerading as movies.

What I hate most however is when a swordsman is defeated and about to give information to hero, some assassin from behind a tree or something kills him with a dart.

If you don't like the genre conventions of the films, obviously you're not going to like the films themselves.

I also dislike that Chor Yuen never includes travel sequences in his films.

He like to shoot on interior sets, which don't lend themselves to travel sequences.

But to say something nice in this rant, when a Chor film is done right, its a pleasure to behold, Films like Killer Clans, Death Duel, and the aformentioned Magic Blade are some of my favorite Shaws. Just wish the rest of his adaptations where on this level.

I too wish all directors' films were as good as the ones I liked the best.

I'll second wuxiawuxia's point that reading the original novels (even in fan translation) will give one a deeper appreciation of the film adaptations.

OTOH, it's perfectly OK to not like Chor Yuen's films, or only like a few of them, or whatever. For example, I consider myself a big fan, but there are a number of his films I don't like.

[ironfistedmonk]

I read somewhere that he didn't like directing martial arts films but because the first few he did were such a success Shaws made him churn them out which would probably explain why his latter films are not as good as his earlier ones such as Killer Clans and Magic Blade.

I agree it's frustrating watching his films and seeing guys like Yuen Wah pop up and not get to throw down properly, a quick clash of swords an they die, vexing

[Iron Boat]

So that explains it then, he didn't like directing martial arts films and it shows. You cant do films about the "martial world" with super fighters and have poor martial arts, its ridiculous.

[BaronK]

CY and Chang Cheh were the Shaw house directors with the highest output. CY would shoot 3 movies at a time and CC was shooting 2 at a time.(one of the reasons for their movies having a strong sense of formula) I always thought of CY in the Hitchcock sense. He loved the glamour and gloss(costumes, class, color). He shot his pictures as visual frames. Each shot was a perfectly still frame with beautiful flowers, branches, trees, fog, cliffs, etc. Where someone like Sun Chung had cameras moving and was creating movement in his camerawork. He used that studio to the hilt.

With CY shooting so much at a time, it also affected Tong Gaai's work. With so much to do, his stuff with CY usually comes off extra generic. The choreography, the set ups and execution, all became cut and paste. Even a movie like Duel of the Century which had many fights. They were all lifeless an uninspired. Tong Gaai and Sun Chung made art. They were like Leone and Morricone together. TG and CY did too much and it ended up coming off tired.

As I've been around, I've found out that there was a lot a martial tv back in the day. From what I've come to learn, martial, kung fu with a singular focus is best for movies. Wu xia stories, esp. the novels are best suited for tv, where they can be fleshed out over episodes. If a wu xia story is focused, it can easily be made into a movie(Lu Chun Ku's stuff, Sun Chung).

Funny thing with CY is, it doesn't matter if you watch his stuff in choronological order or not, they almost all end up being the same. If you've seen 3, you've pretty much seen them all. For me personally, Death Duel, Magic Blade and Killer Clans are the ish. The rest all run together. SS was one of the movies that got me into swordplay movies but the whole smartass, know-it-all-ness of it wore on me, esp. after watching other CY movies.

I do like his stuff in the visual, classy, sense, but it suffers way too much from formula and the fact that those stories were better suited for tv.

[Yang Wu Liang]

A few things...

- Because most of his films were adapted from wuxia novels, no way a 90 min film can capture hundreds of chapters in the novel. He had to speed them up, showing only important scene to move the story.

- It's not meant to be kungfu, one day if you have a chance to read the novel, you'll discover that the fight scenes in the novel are also quick, imaginative, somewhat superhuman. (definitely did not look one of those Kungfu films with heavy hand-to-hand combat), so he's actually successful in bringing the written fights into the visual format.

- Most target audiences at the time already knew the story from reading the novels, no need to tell them the details.

- Chu Yuan's films are never about the martial arts (go for Lau Kar Leung) for that , he's always about beauty, poetic feel, dreamy wuxia world, color and contrast, great script and powerful (although heavily abridged) script from the original novel itself.

When I watch Chu Yuan's film the main point is always about the stories (I guess it helps that I already know the story from reading the books). If you have sometimes, read the novel (many have been translated into English), you will realize that his approach is different than other directors.

Chu Yuan's films do not revolve around hardcore martial arts scenes like Chang Cheh/Lau Kar leung, the martial arts scenes are rather just one element of it. His focus has always been the overall beauty, the poetic visual representation of the Chinese novels (his source material).

Just my two cents.

Well said mate.

If you don't like wuxia films go and watch Lau Kar Leung or a Venoms film!

I'll concede that Tong Gai could have upped his game a bit on some of CY's films though.

[Iron Boat]

Well said mate.

If you don't like wuxia films go and watch Lau Kar Leung or a Venoms film!

I'll concede that Tong Gai could have upped his game a bit on some of CY's films though.

Well its not a matter of liking or hating it that's the problem, its that I see a lot of these films as being wasted opportunities. Afterall, the stories are taken from a novel correct? That means there should be a lot of interesting things in that novel from which to make a film. Considering the talent available to Chor Yuen these movies should have been a lot better. The least they could be are exciting. For those who say his films aren't technically martial arts films, I disagree, because what is common in his movies is a fight every five minutes. Literally everywhere the hero goes he gets in a fight. With that said the action should have been better. We all know Shaw Brothers can produce better fight sequences than what Chor Yuen settled for. Its all about whose best in the Martial World is it not? Whose sword is the fastest. I'll tell you whose sword is the fastest, someone in Cheng Cheh, Sun Chung, or Lar Kar Leung's films!!

Look at the material Fu Sheng was given in Chor Yuen's films, Proud Twins, Heroes Shed No Tears!! What a downgrade for someone of his talents. Ti Lung probably should of said no to some of those scripts as well.

But to change the topic, though Murder Plot had the same problems I've been reffering to, I actually think David Chiang fits the role of this mystery inspector/detective swordsman much better than Ti Lung. DC had the witty type of know it all persona anyway. The quick one hit kill swordfighting also fits him. I probably would of enjoyed Clans of Intrigue, and even the Sentimental Swordsman films much better with DC in the lead.

[wuxiawuxia]

Well its not a matter of liking or hating it that's the problem, its that I see a lot of these films as being wasted opportunities.

Not quite, I think you ought to know what Gu Long's novels are all about. Then you'll learn how to appreciate these Chu Yuan's films like the Chinese folks would. I'll tell you why…

Afterall, the stories are taken from a novel correct?

Correct.

That means there should be a lot of interesting things in that novel from which to make a film.

Unlike most other wuxia novels, Gu Long's novels are very unique in that it plays out like detective stories, every plot, every word, every tongue twisting conversation are important (although somewhat overly philosophical), they're exactly like you normally see in those Chu Yuan's films, a lot of double and triple crosses, but the novel is much much better because you get to read the conversation, that's the best part, you ought to understand the language to appreciate it. The martial arts in Gu Long's novels are actually not the pivotal points so Chu Yuan's direction was actually spot on, in fact the martial arts are often choreographed too much but it is understandable to entertain the audiences with some fights.

As I said , Gu Long and Chu Yuan are not about martial arts, martial arts is just an element of it. The story and plots are what matters most.

Let me give you an example … this is a typical Gu Long's scene with a fight in the end.

Swordsman A : "Why are you here ?"

Killer : "To kill you"

Swordsman A : "Oh, you dare ?"

Killer: "Hmph… "

Swordsman A : "But to kill me you must be out of your mind, do you know who I am ?"

Killer : "Hmph.."

Swordsman A : "Leave now and I will spare your life, you won't be able to kill me with that rusty blade. Save your reputation."

Killer : "I don't trust the words of the living, I only trust dead people"

Swordman A : "Really, why?"

Killer : "Because dead people cannot talk."

Swordsman A : "Hahahaha with that rusty blade?"

Killer : "With this rusty blade."

Swordsman A : "I defeated 3 swordsmen of yellow river with their treasured swords in half a move, you want to defeat me with that rusty blade ?"

Killer : "Because I am not a swordsman like them."

Swordsman A : "Huh ? Why ?"

Killer : "Because I am sword."

Killer : "Not only I am a sword, sword is me."

Suddenly there was a flash of light, the sparks are brigther than the stars.

Even the brightest star in the darkest night seems pale in comparison to this light.

Suddenly there's a dead man.

One dead man and one killer.

The Killer snorted : "I told you I only trust dead people."

Dead people certainly can be trusted.

The night is dark, but the sky is illuminated with bright stars.

Only dead people's eyes are certainly darker than the night.

Considering the talent available to Chor Yuen these movies should have been a lot better. The least they could be are exciting.

They're very exciting to me, he basically brought the novel to life.

For those who say his films aren't technically martial arts films, I disagree, because what is common in his movies is a fight every five minutes. Literally everywhere the hero goes he gets in a fight. With that said the action should have been better. We all know Shaw Brothers can produce better fight sequences than what Chor Yuen settled for. Its all about whose best in the Martial World is it not? Whose sword is the fastest. I'll tell you whose sword is the fastest, someone in Cheng Cheh, Sun Chung, or Lar Kar Leung's films!!

As I said, you really have to know the source material he's doing, then you know why a lof of Gu Long's fans considered Chu Yuan a God, he brought the novel to life.

Look at the material Fu Sheng was given in Chor Yuen's films, Proud Twins, Heroes Shed No Tears!! What a downgrade for someone of his talents. Ti Lung probably should of said no to some of those scripts as well.

I guess if you don't know the story then the answer would be yes, but if you visit wuxia forums like spcnet or wuxiasociety, Alexander Fu Sheng's portrayal of the Little Fish in The Proud Twins (for example) is considered the best portrayal of the Little Fish character from the novel. "The Legendary Twins"

I could not have agreed more…

However, I do agree with you, that if I don't know anything about the novel then I'd probably won't like Fu Sheng's character too much, but that's how the character is in the novel.

But to change the topic, though Murder Plot had the same problems I've been reffering to, I actually think David Chiang fits the role of this mystery inspector/detective swordsman much better than Ti Lung. DC had the witty type of know it all persona anyway. The quick one hit kill swordfighting also fits him. I probably would of enjoyed Clans of Intrigue, and even the Sentimental Swordsman films much better with DC in the lead.

Again I have to disagree, the character Chu Liuxiang in the Clans of Intrique were made for Ti Lung. Even Gu Long had Ti Lung in mind when he wrote the novel for subsequent novels. The character is supposed to be a tall, very handsome, suave, very heroic type, a perfect fit for Ti Lung.

I guess this proves that culture and understanding of certain genre can be misleading, it is apparent that those who are familiar with the novels really loves Chu Yuan's movies while those who don't know the background of these stories probably don't dig them. Understandable, completely makes sense to me.

[Iron Boat]

Well wuxiawuxia, you certainly no wuxia. More specifically Gu Long, that passage you printed is exactly what I imagine his books to be like. Poetic, abstract, dreamy (if thats a word). Now in terms of literature thats excellent material. To read these stories I would be impressed, I wish they were available in English, (I read that they weren't as of yet). Thing is, does a great novel always make for a great film? Being so familiar with Gu Long, wouldn't you like to see his stories be done properly? Not saying Chor Yuen films are improper, but the cut and pastyness of them are apparent.

Another person posted that Gu Long novels would of been best suited for TV and I can see that. My mother is totally into Korean, Chinese series,(Emperor of the Sea, My Lovely Sam-Soon, etc) Would you say TV would be the right way of doing Gu Long?

On another note, a poster Lang Wu Liang wrote, if you dont like wuxia dont watch...thing is, I like wuxia. The majority of films out there I'd say are wuxia. There really are no limits placed on artistry and imagination in wuxia, thats what I love about it. In fact, I'm sure that each Gu Long novel was different and unique, the problem is that the Chor Yuen adaptations tend to feel the same. Probably not his fault though, it may be what the studio demanded.

[kami]

Regarding Chor Yuen I´m really torn apart. On one hand he directed some marvellous movies like CLANS OF INTRIGUE or KILLER CLANS, on the other hand he´s responsible for nearly incomprehensible stuff like MURDER PLOT.

He really deserves kudos for his visual style (some kind of a chinese Mario Bava) and his ability to create atmosphere, but often he isn´t able to condense the novels into a good movie. And maybe he should have chosen a more chanbara-like approach to the action, short, but effective, and highly stylized.

Generally I appreciate Sun Chung's wuxia movies more than Chor Yuen's, because he successfully combines visual beauty, interesting plot and spectacular action, maybe because he didn´t shot 3 movies in one year.

[Yang Wu Liang]

On another note, a poster Lang Wu Liang wrote, if you dont like wuxia dont watch...thing is, I like wuxia. The majority of films out there I'd say are wuxia. There really are no limits placed on artistry and imagination in wuxia, thats what I love about it. In fact, I'm sure that each Gu Long novel was different and unique, the problem is that the Chor Yuen adaptations tend to feel the same. Probably not his fault though, it may be what the studio demanded.

No offence meant mate, it was a bit of a glib remark really - I always get defensive when 'kung fu' film fans criticize wuxia without really thinking about the cultural / literary background etc. I can see your posts are more balanced and open minded than that though.

I agree with your final remark though, I'm sure he must have got a bit jaded after making so many wuxia films, it probably turned into a bit of a routine for him after a while.

[wuxiawuxia]

Yes, I have to admit later Chu Yuan's adaptation of Gu Long's novels sucked.

I fell asleep watching Full Moon Scimitar (the beginning was great, followed the novel greatly, but it started to drag after 30 minutes, the ending with colorful cheap club lights were just horrible) and Murder Plot was just awful, David Chiang is definitely not Shen Lang (the character Gu Long wrote in his book "Mission of the Warrior" or "The Outside Tale of Martial World" or sometimes called "The Martial Art Chronicles"). Ching Li here was another miscast.

[shaolin drunkard]

I like about all Chu Yuen movies but have to say today when watching Death Duel grow almost bored.beginning is so good one can easily think is watching classic now but after 7 mins or so it falls to mediocere level....in the very end it fixes though,some nice swordplay there but still falls to usual OK division.watchable,nothing special.sets are sooo lovely so extra points from that.

[Iron Boat]

I didn't find David Chiang to be the problem with Murder Plot, as a matter fact its his presense that makes the film watchable. Ching Li I admit seemed a bit out of character.