Discovering samurai films

[The Amazing Psycho Per]

Ok, like I said in another post, for now, although i'd like it too, Samurai flicks are not my cup of tea.

So I need you're help to discover the genre based on my likes and don't likes.

Movies I liked so far:

Lone wolf and cub 1 and 2

Seven Samurai

Harakiri

Sword of Doom

Movies I didn't care too much for:

Tenchu

Goyukin

Lone wolf and cub 3,4,5,6

or many of the Chiba/Sanada stuff (8 samurai, Samurai Reincarnation, etc...)

I tried to watch the Samurai trilogy but didn't care too much for it, maybe I should revisit it, but that's another exemple of bad swordplay.

So basically I'm looking for good cinematography, good intricate swordplay (like Sword of Doom) and good story. Seven samurai and Harakiri had pretty weak swordplay but they are such awesome movies that I could overlook that fact. I'm not looking for Hong Kong type choreo. just solid sword skill and no people swinging swords like idiots. For exemple, I didn't think Tenchu or Goyukin had good choreo.

I'd also love to visit the Zatoichi series but with so many movies, maybe someone can give me some hints to wich one are great and wich one may be skipped.

Thanks for your suggestions.

[Stuntman Jules]

There seem to be few samurai films that give the best of both words.

The ones with awesome choreography, action and lots of gore and blood and guts like some of Kinji Fukasaku and Sonny Chiba's jidai-geki films (Legend of the Eight Samurai) or the Lone Wolf and Cub films and other Kazuo Koike-based works are always cheaper, more exploitative and trashier.

However, the artsier and aesthetically far superior ones by people like Masaki Kobayashi, Akira Kurosawa and Kihachi Okamoto are lower on the artsy swordplay and arterial spray and high on the intricate camera work and impressive use of framing and B&W/color.

So it all comes down to taste really. From what you like vs. what you disliked, you seem like you go for the latter category far more often.

[Yakuza954]

Do you really think the swordplay in Seven Samurai is weak? It may not be flashy, but it is very realistic, and matches the tone of the story perfectly. I actually think the overall choreography of that movie (the swordplay and especially the group fight scenes) were decades ahead of their time. With Harakiri, I can kinda see where you're coming from, because the action sequences are a bit slow and sloppy, but again, much of that can be attributed to the creators aiming for realism in those scenes. Take for example when Nakadai becomes completely exhausted in the final fight, or when the wind plays a key part in the duel with Tetsuro Tamba. Again, not intricately choreographed scenes, but getting a high degree of real-life plausibility in action sequences can be just as impressive and difficult as filming a 1 minute continuous take where one guy decapitates a whole army.

[The Amazing Psycho Per]

Yeah ok, "weak" is maybe to strong a word here. It may be not just very "flashy" like you said. But don't get me wrong, I truly love Seven Samurai. Same with Harakiri, the quality of the direction, cinematography and performances far outshadow the lack of intricate swordplay. As for aiming for realism, I understand that's what they wanted to achieve, I just don't think they did it too well. I don't necessarly want to see someone take over an army, just not see a samurai swing his sword aimlessly. I'm all for the quality of the build up to a fight scenes with the atmosphere, the choice of how to cut the scene, the camera angles, etc... An exemple of a well staged fight in Seven Samurai is the duel that occurs in the village when they are recruiting the samurais. It's quick, effecient and achieves the goal of looking realistic, without comprimising the quality of the fight.

Will be watching the first Zatoichi movie tonight, hope it delivers.

[KUNG FU BOB]

Amazing Psycho Per, the film SAMURAI REBELLION is a perfect chanbara film IMO. It has the highest level of artistic expression you could ever hope for in a film, and totally delivers in the swordplay department. The film is light on action for most of the film, but once it comes, it's quite the spectacle!.

I'm a big fan of the Zatoichi films, but personally, I found the first film to be one of my least favorites. A few that I really like are ZATOICHI AND THE CHEST OF GOLD, ZATOICHI'S CANE SWORD, and FIGHT, ZATOICHI, FIGHT.

I'll bet you would also enjoy TANGE SAZEN: SECRET OF THE URN (1966). This is part of a series about a one-eyed, one-armed samurai with a devilish wit, and a deadly katana. The particular title I mentioned has been remade several times, but the "66 version is the one I'd recommend.

[Yakuza954]

I was so busy arguing about the merits of the choreography in Seven Samurai and Harakiri that I forgot what this thread was really about. Judging by your interests, I have two recommendations for you. I may be treading on a slippery slope, because I really like the action in all the Lone Wolf and Cub movies, and in Goyokin, but ah, what the heck, here goes:

For older suff, I think you may like Samurai Wolf. The main character in this one has a really unique "quick-draw" style where he takes his sword out and quickly does an attack on opponent, akin to the quick-draw style used by cowboys with their revolvers in westerns. It creates for some interesting scenarios in fights and is worth watching just to see a different kind of sword style in a samurai movie.

The second recommendation is a more recent film, and that's The Twilight Samurai. All the choreography in this movie is solid and Hiroyuki Sanada is in top form but this is a drama first and foremost, so don't go in expecting a lot of action. Still, its probably the best samurai movie of the past decade and should be seen at least once. Sanada has always been one of the best physical performers too, so he's able to pull off some quick moves that most of his peers wouldn't be able to.

[jiujitsu77]

try shogun's shadow....that might be your cup of tea

one of chiba's best IMO

and for a little older school...try red lion...awesome story. mifune's presence is always great

[jiujitsu77]

and let me comment again on shogun's shadow

the reason i recommended it is not so much historical accuracy but for the amount of action that will keep your attention..great stuff

im going to finish karate priest tomorrow with katsu and nakadai. good so far

[venom10463]

Like Yakuza said, Samurai Wolf is also a great film to check out. You should also seek out part 2 as well. It's not as great as the 1st film, but it doesn't fall flat on the ground.

Another great titles that uses the quick draw style is Sword Devil.

Here's the synopsis:

From the pen of novelist SHIBATA Renzaburo, creator of the Nemuri Kyoshiro series, comes the story of a superior swordsman with special talents. His father is unknown, but he is the son of a lady in waiting to the Daimyo's late wife. This is the tale of 'Killer' Hanpei, an expert in the art of Iaido. Hanpei's lightning fast draw is put to use by his clan's Chamberlain to keep Shogunate spies from reporting that the clan lord has gone insane. Not having an heir, the clan would be abolished were to truth to get out. A brilliant film from master director MISUMI Kenji, as he utilizes the talents of Japan's most popular samurai actor, ICHIKAWA Raizo.

[kaleyboy]

Ono of my favourite samurai movies is Kill (Kiru). By turns both funny and tragic, after watching I felt I understood a little bit more about the human condition.

[KyFi]

The Zatoichis just get better and better as they go along, IMO. I would highly recommend #5, On the Road, as my favorite, although Chest of Gold, Fight, Zatoichi, Fight, are strong---heck, they're all great. They really maintained an amazingly consistent level of quality throughout that series.

[HAZ]

I recently re-watched the first few Zatoichi films & really enjoyed them. I found a remastered version which is MUCH better than the R1 releases. Actually being able to see what's happening made the movies seem way better lol. I am a fan of Three Outlaw Samurai, the Samurai Wolf series, any samurai films by Kenji Misumi, like Sword Devil. Lone Wolf & Cub was great, but I haven't re-watched those in a while.

[daisho2004]

If you want to see a very good Samurai/Ninja flick check out "Ninja Hunt" excellent movie the Original and the remake. I loved the "Lone Wolf & Cub" series although the last one was a bit disappointing but overall a great series. Next would be "The Sleepy Eyes of Death" series I have the entire collection and it is one of my favorite Samurai series. Zatoichi great series enough said. But if you really want to get an idea check out the sticky thread at the top of the page there are a lot of good reviews there to help you out.

[The Amazing Psycho Per]

Ok, unless I'm more blind then Zatoichi, there is no sticky thread reviewing Samurai movies...

That being said, thanks for the suggestions guys, that should get me going. For the record I enjoyed Zatoichi. Although there is not much action, I loved the build up and how you heard of Zatoichi's legendary skills, but could hardly grasp it until the end. Will definately keep looking for this series.

I think I might also revisit some flicks I didn't like a first time, now that I will be watching them with a new approach, knowing that the fighting choreo. is not what I'm looking for.

You can keep the suggestions coming, I'm all ears and eyes.

[KUNG FU BOB]

I must second the praise for TWILIGHT SAMURAI- an excellent film! My wife and I watched it the day before the academy awards, and were both quite disappointed when it lost for "Best Foreign Film".

[The Amazing Psycho Per]

Yeah, I have seen Twilight Samurai. Good movie, interesting parallells to be made with modern day Japan. The final fight was a bit of a let down though... You have to assume you are making a movie with sword fighting people and in 2002 there were no reason why a fight should look so blend and approximative, especially with Sanada on board. That did not look realistic, just unchoregraphed. But hey, the point of the movie wasn't to show people fighting with swords...

[GwaiLoMoFo]

I must second the praise for TWILIGHT SAMURAI- an excellent film! My wife and I watched it the day before the academy awards, and were both quite disappointed when it lost for "Best Foreign Film".

All the films in that triolgy were fine films (Twilight Samurai, Hidden Blade & Love & Honor). But am I the only one who thought that "The Hidden Blade" was the best of the three? Ive heard alot of praise for "Twilight" and "Love & Honor", but "Hidden Blade" seems to have gotten the least praise. But I enjoyed that one the most.

[GwaiLoMoFo]

I cant believe you didnt enjoy "Goyokin" or "Tenchu"!! Those are two of my all time favorites. So your taste may be a bit suspect.....(jk)

Check out:

"Hidden Blade" & "Love & Honor" (to complete Twilight Samurai trilogy)

"Satans Sword" (Trilogy) *A must if you liked "Sword Of Doom"*

"Kill!!" (aka Kiru!!)

"When The Last Sword Is Drawn"

"Whirlwind"

"Shogun's Samurai" (aka Yagyu Clan Conspiracy)

"Zatoichi And The Chess Expert"

"Zatoichi And The Festival Of Fire"

"The Betrayal"

"Kiru"

"Sword Devil"

"Three Outlaw Samurai"

[Tosh]

Well I never heard of someone liking the first two Lone Wolf and Cubs but not the rest:o It's kind of hard to gauge what your looking for.

I think you'll like the Zatoichi movies, if your looking for swordmanship you picked the right movie.

[The Amazing Psycho Per]

Ok, for the record I did not genuinely dislike the rest of the Lone Wolf and Cub series. I just thought that as the series move along, things I don't know how to say it but, it fades away... It's not that they are that bad. Maybe it's because the novelty aspect of the serie is not there as you watch the rest, I don't know. I enjoyed them a bit, just not as much.

As for Goyukin and Tenchu! I think I should watch them again... I wasn't in a very Samurai mood when I watched them. I remember the cinematography was great.

It's simple I want a good movie, with good swordplay.

Good swordplay:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObuvfQKPCsA

In this Mifune is fast and crisp. His feet are sturdy, he doesn't swing his sword with one arm like an idiot, and he strikes with assurance. That's what I'm looking for.

If the swordplay is not good, the movie has to reach the heights of a Harakiri or Seven Samurai, you know, the direction has to do rest, great story, great editing and great cinematography.

[Yakuza954]

All the films in that triolgy were fine films (Twilight Samurai, Hidden Blade & Love & Honor). But am I the only one who thought that "The Hidden Blade" was the best of the three? Ive heard alot of praise for "Twilight" and "Love & Honor", but "Hidden Blade" seems to have gotten the least praise. But I enjoyed that one the most.

After I saw Hidden Blade, I was torn on whether I liked it more than Twilight or not. The big reason I give Twilight Samurai the advantage is for being the "first" and original in the trilogy, and also perhaps because of Sanada's performance. That many not be fair though, as Masatoshi Nagase's performance is also top of the line stuff. To its credit, I think the Hidden Blade is the most rewarding of the three for fans of older martial arts movies because of the lead character's killer special technique and the training sequences with the "old master" type character.

[jiujitsu77]

Ono of my favourite samurai movies is Kill (Kiru). By turns both funny and tragic, after watching I felt I understood a little bit more about the human condition.

kiru is awesome. been looking to purchase that one for years after i rented it. can't find it anywhere. Nakadai is a great actor...almost underrated IMO.

if i remember correctly, kiru is a remake of sanjuro. i almost like it better than sanjuro.....almost

[Alex]

Kill! is not a remake of Sanjuro, but they are both based on the same novel called "peacefull days"

[venom10463]

Check out Mute Samurai and Bounty Hunter series... both stars Tomisaburo Wakayama. The swordplay is fast and well cheorograph. I would start off with Mute Samurai because it's more plot-driven. Be warned, 26 episodes and 45 mins ea episode.

[Yakuza954]

Good swordplay:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObuvfQKPCsA

In this Mifune is fast and crisp. His feet are sturdy, he doesn't swing his sword with one arm like an idiot, and he strikes with assurance. That's what I'm looking for.

So in Seven Samurai when Mifune is swinging his sword with one arm and his feet aren't sturdy, that is bad swordplay choreography? Again, Mifune's character in that movie wasn't even a real samurai and by swinging his sword like that, it is a realistic depiction of how a person who wasn't a real swordsman would fight. In fact, the only character in that movie who would even be considered a "master samurai" by movie standards would be Kyuzo. The rest were mostly just normal samurai, so when you see one of them with a stance too wide, or with a sword swing that seems too slow, it's because they lack the technique of a Miyamoto Musashi. Being able to show this on film is very good choreography in my opinion. Sure, part of it is because the actors aren't real swordsmen themselves, but here it lends itself nicely--it suits the kind of rough, ugly look of a real fight that Akira Kurosawa was aiming for.