Member GwaiLoMoFo Posted March 21, 2009 Member Share Posted March 21, 2009 It seems the more Venom's films I go back and revisit the more disappointed I become. After a while they all kinda blend in to the same film. Initial viewings of most of the films were really enjoyable. I started to really notice this after I picked up the IVL "5 Element Ninja" dvd. I dont know why a film that I thought I loved so much bored the hell outta me. Its not so much the story/plot lines, but the action choreography. Why they are all great athletes/acrobats, their stiff punch and block style of fighting is just boring. The weapons choreography is better, but even those scenes can look too staged. Sometimes you can almost see them counting during the "routines". During weapons combat they seem to be swinging at each others ankles or a foot above their heads. I have always been a much bigger fan of shapes style choreography like LKL's. Repeat viewings of his films have always held up for me. It might seem like Im baggin on the Venoms, Im more disappointed than anything. To the point Im gettin rid of most of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member falkor Posted March 21, 2009 Member Share Posted March 21, 2009 5 Element Ninjas choreography is about as good it gets in terms of shapes, patterns, arrays and formations. Its like admiring perfectly symmetrical building architecture or something--its just too beautiful! Perhaps you have some of the Japanese "Wabi Sabi" mentality inside of you that appreciates imperfection? "stiff punch and block style of fighting is just boring" I am baffled how you are getting this impression. The only thing I can think of: it might be the fact that Shaw Brothers always use the same type of sound effects unlike independent classics, or, your frontal lobes are overpowered. Mate, when watching a Venoms film you need to be chilled out and relaxed. If something is on your mind then I say don't bother. The films are there for escapism, but maybe you need something more realistic, hence your appreciation of LKL. I don't know... could speculate all day... been analysing kung fandom for years... Markgway is the ultimate case study. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member shaolin drunkard Posted March 21, 2009 Member Share Posted March 21, 2009 5 element ninja is not venomS film..I got a hell lot more out of "flag of iron" when saw full IVL release instead of bastard english dub...Masked Avengers is maybe ultimate cc or kf flick,kid with the golden arm is not that great but it has some cool one-liners in english dub... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Tosh Posted March 21, 2009 Member Share Posted March 21, 2009 I've always seen the Venom fight choreo more theatrical, I mean all the flips aren't very practical when it comes to a fight, but man does it ever look cool . I'm a big fan of variety, if all the fight scenes looked like they came from one person then it would be boring. The thing I like about the Venom acrobatics is it's them, no doubling, very minimal use of wires, I think they held back on what they could of really done as seen in The Daredevils. They also had the misfortune of coming in at the end of Chang Cheh's career, I think a lot of the close up zooms actually took away from what they were doing, I think they did the best with what they had to work with at the time. All in all imo, whenever in doubt, throw in a Venoms movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member shaolin drunkard Posted March 21, 2009 Member Share Posted March 21, 2009 well,if it makes you feel any happier it`s almost certain in our lifetime we never see again such a "just boring choreography...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member GwaiLoMoFo Posted March 21, 2009 Author Member Share Posted March 21, 2009 well,if it makes you feel any happier it`s almost certain in our lifetime we never see again such a "just boring choreography...." Doesnt make me happy at all, thats the whole point of my post. Going back and revisiting these films I once thought I loved and coming away disappointed. I took a break from them for a while and thought that would help, but it didnt. 5 Element Ninjas choreography is about as good it gets in terms of shapes, patterns, arrays and formations. Its like admiring perfectly symmetrical building architecture or something--its just too beautiful! Perhaps you have some of the Japanese "Wabi Sabi" mentality inside of you that appreciates imperfection? The films are there for escapism, but maybe you need something more realistic, hence your appreciation of LKL. You know, I actually think you might be onto something there. Maybe their performances are too perfect (perfectly timed & executed), hence why they seem too "staged" to me. I totally gree with your post falkor. Im not questioning their greatness or ability. I just think over the years my tastes have changed/evolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member teako170 Posted March 21, 2009 Member Share Posted March 21, 2009 I just think over the years my tastes have changed/evolved. Nothing wrong with that. I've only watched my IVLs once (except for 5V). I wouldn't get rid of them though. Unless you need the extra cash or space (which really doesn't amount to much either way), I suggest you just put them away and in a year (or five), give them another go. You just might enjoy them again; if only for the nostalgia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Actually I rather liked FIVE ELEMENT NINJAS. Had a decent story to match its balletic bloodletting and was Chang Cheh's last hurrah to martial arts cinema (nothing he did subsequently came close, though I admit I've not seen a couple of his latter "Baby Venom" films). Shapes and arrangements are all very well but I need to care about who's fighting and why? That's perhaps what seperates me from some fans? To me the fighting arts are the icing on the cake not the raison d'etre. That's where Falkor and I part company. But that's fine because we all get somethng different out of these (or any) films. The choreography of The Venoms (even into the early 80s) was traditional in style compared to what Sammo Hung was doing elsewhere... It's probable that Gwailomofo prefers the high impact action in Sammo's films to the more flowery, acrobatic style employed by The Venoms. But that's just a guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Chinatown Kid Posted March 22, 2009 Member Share Posted March 22, 2009 Fights have become a little to stagey for you in the traditional style choreography ala the Venoms films huh, sounds like you need a shot of Bruce Lee or Sonny Chiba in the Mas Oyama films. In those films the fights don't look like dancing like alot of the peking opera style choreography does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member shaolin drunkard Posted March 22, 2009 Member Share Posted March 22, 2009 Fights have become a little to stagey for you in the traditional style choreography ala the Venoms films huh, sounds like you need a shot of Bruce Lee or Sonny Chiba in the Mas Oyama films. In those films the fights don't look like dancing like alot of the peking opera style choreography does. yes,ballet is far from those..Instead you see wooden dummy punched or kicked:kiss: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Monk Sante Posted March 22, 2009 Member Share Posted March 22, 2009 They say variety is the spice of life......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Killer Meteor Posted March 22, 2009 Member Share Posted March 22, 2009 I think the Venoms work better with the campy English dubs. The phoney Chinese dubbing just makes them feel artifical and lifeless. A bit of open air or modern day setting might have helped too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Chinatown Kid Posted March 22, 2009 Member Share Posted March 22, 2009 yes,ballet is far from those..Instead you see wooden dummy punched or kicked:kiss: Ha ha well maybe so but they look more like a real fight than when you have two people fighting with move after move of strikes and blocks without anyone landing a blow, but to tell you the truth I appreciate both styles of choreography. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Li Ho Posted March 22, 2009 Member Share Posted March 22, 2009 Chiang Sheng is rolling over in his grave as we speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member GwaiLoMoFo Posted March 22, 2009 Author Member Share Posted March 22, 2009 It's probable that Gwailomofo prefers the high impact action in Sammo's films to the more flowery, acrobatic style employed by The Venoms. But that's just a guess... Yes, very much so. Give me the brief (but beautiful) alley fight from "Martial Club" (Gordon V WLW) over anything the venoms ever put together. Fights have become a little to stagey for you in the traditional style choreography ala the Venoms films huh, sounds like you need a shot of Bruce Lee or Sonny Chiba in the Mas Oyama films. In those films the fights don't look like dancing like alot of the peking opera style choreography does. Chiba is probably my favorite all around genre actor. From karate, samurai, and even his exploitation work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Iron Boat Posted March 22, 2009 Member Share Posted March 22, 2009 I just prefer to say the venoms films became a bit cheesy over time. A lot of people seem to like Masked Avengers, Flag of Iron, and Golden Arm, but those are very cheesy to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member lillippa328 Posted March 22, 2009 Member Share Posted March 22, 2009 Venom films are somthing u just sit back and enjoy....open your mind, and just enjoy.... i love the venom films Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member teako170 Posted March 22, 2009 Member Share Posted March 22, 2009 I think the Venoms work better with the campy English dubs. The phoney Chinese dubbing just makes them feel artifical and lifeless. I prefer the subs (overall) but I have to agree that the V flix work better w/ dubs (IMO). A bit of open air or modern day setting might have helped too That's why I enjoy Life Gamble. It gives us the chance to see what the V-boys looked like in a real environment and what their flix might have been like if CC didn't use the sound stage. Then again, many feel the artificial sets added to the overall campiness of their films and to take that away would have ruined it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member shaolin drunkard Posted March 22, 2009 Member Share Posted March 22, 2009 Yes, very much so. Give me the brief (but beautiful) alley fight from "Martial Club" (Gordon V WLW) over anything the venoms ever put together. I did not like that very much..it has it`s moments but it became silly when Northern Master did those agility scenes(I am 99% sure someone doubled Wang Lung Wei in that).Scenes orchestrated by Lu Feng,Kuo Chui and Chiang Sheng are top notch always.Have to say there has been moment or two when I thought they take acrobatism too far in cost of realism though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member shaolin drunkard Posted March 22, 2009 Member Share Posted March 22, 2009 Ha ha well maybe so but they look more like a real fight than when you have two people fighting with move after move of strikes and blocks without anyone landing a blow, but to tell you the truth I appreciate both styles of choreography. Not much disagreemet there.it seems most people in Bruces movies are waiting to be hit by Little Dragon but I guess if pick random thugs from street and put them against someone who has speed of Lee Jun Fan hardly they would do any better than those wooden dummies in movies:S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member vengeanceofhumanlanterns Posted March 22, 2009 Member Share Posted March 22, 2009 "Scenes orchestrated by Lu Feng,Kuo Chui and Chiang Sheng are top notch always.Have to say there has been moment or two when I thought they take acrobatism too far in cost of realism though. Well said SD and spot on. The vemons busted there ass' to bring you what you see in their films. They obviously loved the acrobat element and were having a great deal of fun applying it to there choreographs. Not to mention the individual charisma each venom had working off one another. Magnificent Ruffians aka The Destroyers, I feel would be a great start for anyone looking to check out a venom's film. It really captures each actors real life character IMO. They look like they're just being themselves with their roles in MR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member The Amazing Psycho Per Posted March 22, 2009 Member Share Posted March 22, 2009 It may sound obvious, but to me it's only a matter of taste and what you are in the mood for. The fact that the Venoms choreo. is very Peking opera like and may sometime look too stage does not bother me at all. The end fight in Crippled Avengers were Chiang Sing and Kuo Chui fights Lu Feng with the metal rings might be the best exemple of the action looking too stage. Still, it's acrobatic and spectacular and that's what I like about it. I might tend to agree about the weakness of their hand to hand choreography though, to me the Venoms were at their best with the weapon work. But basically, like I said, it all comes down to what type of action you're in the mood too watch. Sometimes you just get bored with a specific type of choreo. Not so long ago, I couldn't watch any of the early 90's wired kung fu extravaganza anymore. Anytime I tried watching one I was bored out of my mind... And yet now I'm rediscovering it all over again. There was also a phase were all I wanted to see was 80's modern kickboxing type of action. If you are in the mood for a specific type, or not in the mood for a specific other, there's no point in forcing yourself as you are sure not to enjoy it. See, now I'm in my 90's wired kung fu again and I couldn't be bothered watching any old school flick for now... But it'll be back. Only a matter of rediscovering why a particular genre of choreo. is so great, and being able to see it with fresh eyes. They're all great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Stuntman Jules Posted March 22, 2009 Member Share Posted March 22, 2009 I've always had issues with Chang Cheh in general. The fighting in his films is always great, there's always an ample amount of gore on hand but his style is sloppy as all get out. Most of Shaw's directors were like this but Chang was the worst: zooms every 30 seconds, dirty lenses, some shots not even focused properly, etc. He's like Lucio Fulci in that regard: great fun violence and eye candy but poor production values. Whenever people aren't going on kung fu killing sprees in his films it gets boring as all hell, also. His David Chiang/Ti Lung period stuff is the most tolerable and his best work. The One Armed Swordsman has some great moments but is very uneven, but I do love Vengeance, Boxer From Shantung and The Blood Brothers. Easily his three best films with good characterization and balls-to-wall finales. His Venoms stuff is his worst. The Venoms lack all the charisma, to me, of people like Wang Yu, Chiang, Ti Lung, Chen Kuan Tai, etc. His movies really started to suffer once he parted ways with Lau Kar Leung. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member KyFi Posted March 22, 2009 Member Share Posted March 22, 2009 I've always had issues with Chang Cheh in general. The fighting in his films is always great, there's always an ample amount of gore on hand but his style is sloppy as all get out. Most of Shaw's directors were like this but Chang was the worst: zooms every 30 seconds, dirty lenses, some shots not even focused properly, etc. He's like Lucio Fulci in that regard: great fun violence and eye candy but poor production values. Whenever people aren't going on kung fu killing sprees in his films it gets boring as all hell, also. His David Chiang/Ti Lung period stuff is the most tolerable and his best work. The One Armed Swordsman has some great moments but is very uneven, but I do love Vengeance, Boxer From Shantung and The Blood Brothers. Easily his three best films with good characterization and balls-to-wall finales. His Venoms stuff is his worst. The Venoms lack all the charisma, to me, of people like Wang Yu, Chiang, Ti Lung, Chen Kuan Tai, etc. His movies really started to suffer once he parted ways with Lau Kar Leung. While I don't feel quite as strongly, I think Stuntman Jules' points are valid. I appreciate CC's artistic vision, but I think he was more of a "vibe" director rather than a "details" director, and I agree that his earlier works were stronger. While I still enjoy the Venoms movies, I do have to say I wasn't hit with the "wow" factor as much compared to when I first saw the widescreen Celestial versions of a bunch of other 60's-mid 70's Shaw films. Maybe it had to do with the more artificial sets and lack of outdoor shots, but the venoms movies didn't seem to benefit as much as others from the widescreen restoration, to me at least. That being said though, I do enjoy their films, and as mentioned earlier sometimes I'm just really in the mood for that style of choreography. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member teako170 Posted March 22, 2009 Member Share Posted March 22, 2009 While I still enjoy the Venoms movies, I do have to say I wasn't hit with the "wow" factor as much compared to when I first saw the widescreen Celestial versions of a bunch of other 60's-mid 70's Shaw films. Maybe it had to do with the more artificial sets and lack of outdoor shots, but the venoms movies didn't seem to benefit as much as others from the widescreen restoration, to me at least. Similar feelings. Earlier CC work (and films by others during that period) really stood up when seeing them remastered. It was like watching these films for the first time. Venoms... I tend to like better when they're in their muddy BootlegScope with awkward dubs. The Venom flix always had a mythical feel about them and seemed to be work well in that fog or haze. Think of that "Claritin" commercial when they pop their little pill and the world goes from hazy to clear. The Celestial discs were like taking that pill which then stripped the Venoms of their surreal world as we clearly saw the make-believe reality of a Shaw set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.