Member Flashlegs Pete Jr Posted December 6, 2008 Member Share Posted December 6, 2008 Good The Bad The looser (Letterbox English Dubbed) BruceXploitation FANS I dubbed the Italian print of this SUPER CLASSIC!!! Bruce Against Snake in the Eagle's Shadow AND ITS GLASS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 GBL looks distorted like fake letterbox. I didn't think anyone was still doing that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Flashlegs Pete Jr Posted December 7, 2008 Author Member Share Posted December 7, 2008 looks distorted like fake letterbox Your remark Mmmm!! “looks distorted like fake letterbox” baffles me considering most aspect ratios are adjusted by major companies to adapt for various reasons such as viewers pleasure and are always never the same from county to state and without doubt adjustable where necessary according to necessity and production origin aspect ratio choices. I should imagine you have some expert experience in this field to make such a comment and I appreciate expert analysis even though I have not yet seen your claim verified with analytical facts. I will admit I do make adjustments to aspect ratio’s with many kung fu movies. However to determine “Fake” one has to define the original aspect ratios and in tern determine its fake alterations. My question is how is this done? Aspect ratios are mathematically expressed in essence by way of x-to-y description. The most common aspect ratios used today in the presentation of films in movie theaters are 1.85:1 and 2.39:1. Two common videographic aspect ratios are 4:3 (1.33:1), universal for standard definition video formats, and 16:9 (1.78:1), universal to high definition television and European digital television. Other cinema and video aspect ratios exist, but are used infrequently. In still camera photography, the most common aspect ratios are 4:3 and 3:2, though other aspect ratios, such as 5:4, 7:5, and 1:1 (square format), are used. Converting formats of unequal ratios is done by either cropping the original image to the receiving format's aspect ratio, by adding horizontal mattes letter-boxing or vertical mattes pillar-boxing to retain the original format's aspect ratio, or by distorting the image to fill the receiving format's ratio. Cinematographic aspect ratios are usually denoted as a decimal fraction width to unit height, while video graphic aspect ratios are usually denoted by ratios of whole numbers. The standard used formats are (4:3) Pixel aspect ratio (W:H) and also Anamorphic 16:9. I didn't think anyone was still doing that Sorry to say its still a done thing Markway and maybe always from my analysis this is why we have so many different formats. One can easily change aspect ratio format from their living room by way of an adjustment manually with remote control these days. The question is am I watching a fake conversion when I adjust my TV or is it just preference. This is my analysis below of the many adjustment made by the movie industry. Motion Picture & Cinema Industry Methods The motion picture industry convention assigns a value of 1.0 to the image’s height, thus, an anamorphic frame is described as 2.40:1 or 2.40. In American cinemas, the common projection ratios are 1.85:1 and 2.40:1. Some European countries have 1.66:1 as the wide screen standard. 1.33:1 was used for all cinema films until the 1950s. However, when television, which also had a screen ratio of 1.33:1, became a threat to movie audiences, Hollywood gave birth to a large number of wide screen formats such as Cinema scope and Vista vision. During the 1950s the 1.85:1 aspect ratio became one of the most common cinema projection standards in the U.S. Development of various camera systems must therefore ultimately cater to the placement of the frame in relation to these lateral constraints of the perforations and the optical soundtrack area. One clever wide screen alternative, vista vision, used standard 35 mm film running sideways through the camera gate, so that the sprocket holes were above and below frame, resulting in a larger horizontal negative size per frame as the vertical size was now restricted by the perforations. However, the 1.5 ratio of the initial vista vision image needed to be cropped down to 1.85 and optically converted to a vertical print on standard 4 perforation 35mm film to show in the projectors available at theaters. Though the format was briefly revived by George Lucas film company in the 1970s for special effects work that required larger negative size due to image degradation from the optical printing steps necessary to make multi-layer composites, it went into obsolescence largely due to better cameras, lenses, and film stocks available to standard 4 perforation formats, in addition to increased lab costs of making prints in comparison to more standard vertical processes. The horizontal process was later adapted to 70 mm film by IMAX. Super 16mm film was frequently used for television production due to its lower cost, lack of need for soundtrack space on the film itself as it was not projected, but rather transferred to video and aspect ratio similar to 16:9 Super 16mm was natively 1.66 whilst 16:9 is 1.78. It was also fiesable when blown up to 35mm for theatrical release and therefore is also used for feature films. The 4:3 system ratio generally named as "Four-by-Three" for standard television has been in use since television's origins and many computer monitors use the same aspect ratio. 4:3 is the aspect ratio defined by the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences as a standard after the advent of optical sound on film. By having TV match this aspect ratio, films previously photographed on film could be satisfactorily viewed on TV in the early days of the medium i.e. the 1940s and the 1950s. When cinema attendance dropped, Hollywood created widescreen aspect ratios such as the 1.85:1 ratio mentioned earlier in order to differentiate their industry from the TV. 16:9 system generally named as Sixteen-by-Nine" is the international standard format of HDTV as used in Australia, Brazil, Canada, Japan, South Korea, and the United States, as well as in Europe on HDTV and non-HD widescreen television (EDTV) PAL plus. Japan's Hi-Vision originally started with a 5:3 ratio but converted when the international standards group introduced a wider ratio of 5⅓ to 3 (=16:9), invented by Kerns H. Powers in 1984. The 1.78:1 aspect ratio was the compromise between the 35mm US and UK widescreen standard 1.85:1 and the 35mm European widescreen standard 1.66:1 citation needed. Many digital video cameras have the capability to record in 16:9. Anamorphic DVD transfers store the information vertically stretched in a 3:2 aspect ratio; if the TV was capable in handling an anamorphic image, it will horizontally decompress the signal to 16:9. If not, the DVD player can reduce scan lines and add letter-boxing before sending the image to the TV. Wider ratios such as 1.85:1 and 2.40:1 are accommodated within the 16:9 DVD frame by additional black bars within the image itself. After the original 16:9 Action Plan of the early 1990s, the European Union and Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina have instituted the 16:9 Action Plan, citation needed just to accelerate the development of the advanced television services in 16:9 aspect ratio, both in PAL and also in HDTV. The Community fund for the 16:9 Action Plan amounted to €228 million. In Europe 16:9 is being adopted as the standard broadcast format for digital and high definition TV; some countries have even adopted the format for analogue television by means of the Pal Plus standard. Here is a diagram above of the various Aspect Ratios in existence, a total of 5 as depicted by a colour coded diagrams. The ultimate question is which one of them is fake or is it just down to country standards and viewers choice…Frankly I prefer to see a movie in widescreen and as you can see below here is a full screen version of The Good The Bad The Looser……From your expertise in aspect ratio Markway which one is FAKE the fullscreen or the FLK coversion??? Fullscreen FLK Wide Conversion Fullscreen Version FLK Wide Conversion FLK Wide Conversion Fullscreen Version FLK Wide Conversion Fullscreen Version I say its all to do with choice….in fact I do believe this movie was originally made with 35mm from origin…hence the 2 above formats which would you say looks fake from the origin. On the otherhand I could have pushed the fullscreen version and 3 months down the line "BROADCAST THAT I HAVE A NEW LETTERBOX PRINT AND DECEIVE THE FANS" its a known practice by some but NOT FLK we give the best print FIRST TIME!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Flashlegs Pete Jr Posted December 7, 2008 Author Member Share Posted December 7, 2008 Cheung Ching Ching one of my favorite female stars in the above named classic....The movie is quite entertaining IMO!! however letterbox version does a lot more for the movie...It was released some years ago in the US in full screen but the comparison to this print is lame IMO!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member spannick Posted December 7, 2008 Member Share Posted December 7, 2008 the new windowboxed Screens are look too squished. Every Professional will tell you that, too. don't like the windowboxing either. of course there are folks with overscan on their TV, but what about the ones without? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member luckystars Posted December 7, 2008 Member Share Posted December 7, 2008 I can only see the point in windowboxing for inserted footage - example 4:3 inserts (etc.) restoring previous cuts to a Scope print, or 1.66:1 preserved within a 16:9 framing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member HAZ Posted December 7, 2008 Member Share Posted December 7, 2008 The full screen stills look more natural to me than the widescreen. The widescreen image looks stretched out. They make Carter Wong look like he's built like Bolo Yeung. For me, a proper widescreen image would include the missing picture information to the left & right sides of the picture. Regardless of ratio, both images look cropped. Like Pete says, though, you can change the ratio with a click of your mouse/remote, so I wouldn't mind. The only thing is, if I read the word widescreen in a product description, I would assume that the image would be un-cropped, not missing picture information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator KUNG FU BOB Posted December 7, 2008 Administrator Share Posted December 7, 2008 Your remark Mmmm!! “looks distorted like fake letterbox” baffles me considering most aspect ratios are adjusted by major companies to adapt for various reasons such as viewers pleasure and are always never the same from county to state and without doubt adjustable where necessary according to necessity and production origin aspect ratio choices. I should imagine you have some expert experience in this field to make such a comment and I appreciate expert analysis even though I have not yet seen your claim verified with analytical facts. Pete, I think anyone can look at the full-frame version and see it's horizontally squeezed. And it's also obvious that the "letterboxed" version has been over-adjusted. It doesn't matter how much technical information you heap on your response, or how far back you tilt your head to look down your nose at Markgway, it looks wrong. I still think you put out a lot of great stuff, but I found all of that yada yada a little hard to swallow. I have x-y scaling on my DVD player so don't think I don't know what you were talking about. But the real question is no more complicated than this: Do they look short and squished in the letterboxed print? Simply, YES. What qualifications do I have that allows me to make such an observation? My head came with eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member silver hermit Posted December 7, 2008 Member Share Posted December 7, 2008 pete had given us a wealth of information as far as aspect ratios are concerned so lets all put it to use for the good of the genre. personaly i would reccomend FLK's lion boxer, funny family or book of heroes prints they look great! as haz pointed out it might be better to list the prints in the aspect ratio instead of widescreen. all of you have good points so lets all get along but i must digress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member HAZ Posted December 7, 2008 Member Share Posted December 7, 2008 The print of Bruce Against Snake in the Eagle's Shadow looks great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Flashlegs Pete Jr Posted December 7, 2008 Author Member Share Posted December 7, 2008 Which movie are you guys talking about??? Good The Bad The looser Real Man Bruce Against Snake in the Eagle's Shadow I ask because I pulled all 3 into letterbox:D I also pulled this one in to letterbox below!! Judy Lee Female Chivalry Letterbox Subtitled Version Can anyone spot the stretched image on this one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member General Kuan Posted December 7, 2008 Member Share Posted December 7, 2008 I wanna get your English-dubbed version, but it is only available to FLK Collectors Chamber Members only. How do I become one so that I can get this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Flashlegs Pete Jr Posted December 7, 2008 Author Member Share Posted December 7, 2008 Go for it my friend its CLEAR!!! and in the norm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member thundered mantis Posted December 8, 2008 Member Share Posted December 8, 2008 OK, the LBX version of GBL looks horizontally stretched, but it DOES contain more image on the right side of the screen than the fullscreen version. So the LBX version wins no contest. You are seeing more film with it, and that´s the important thing. Windowboxing and stretching make it seem to the untrained eye like it´s around 2.00, when it´s really 1.77 or less, but what it counts is that you get more info in this case than you get with the fullscreen release. It would be a great commodity for the fans if FLK would add screenshots to their LBX releases, or info about the aspect ratio. They have some great rare wides, like Mystery of Chess Boxing, but other ones are not rare. Have to give FLK credit as they always inform if asked on the real differences (or not differences) of their prints with the usual widely available ones. But still, info added on the LBX releases would save the asking. BTW Pete, are your "Kung Fu From Beyond the Grave" and "Crystal Fist" versions wide? I need those bits... "Crystal Fist" what aspect ratio would you say? I got a 1.77 version, bad qual., but I´ve seen wider screenshots, around 2.00 Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Flashlegs Pete Jr Posted December 8, 2008 Author Member Share Posted December 8, 2008 Well its refreshing to see someone on fandom who doesn’t want to take a swipe at our efforts at FLK…..Sadly I don’t visit KFF much due to the crazy arguments as oppose to healthy debates….I hate silly arguments because it’s a waste of time however a healthy debate can help us all to improve our Collection. I don’t mine being corrected if I make a mistake or something but being insulted is another thing especially when two people don’t know each other personally and no offensive comments were made from me initially. LETS FACE FACTS NONE OF THE MAJOR COMPANIES care about kung fu much anymore with exception of a few…..hence we the fans are the backbone of Asian kung fu cinema’s future…We started a CLUB a while back on our forum with over 24 Club fans including the late Linn Haynes named Asian Movie Restoration Society where these fans come together and revive RARE and POPULAR titles in a format acceptable to all its members such as: 1.English Subtitled 2.English Dubbed 3.Mandarin & English Audio 4.Special Features-Bio’s & Filmographies - Anamorphic widescreen 5.Original trailers 6.Totally UNCUT!! 7.Original trailers and MORE!!! All involved contribute at the highest level of commitment. There contribution is as follows:- 1.Members offer a version of the movie in its best possible condition 2.Others offer support by way of research Bio’s and Filmographies 3.One member does all our cover art and he is absolutely fantastic as a graphic designer IMO. 4.Another member spends his time doing our Star Gallery with his design art skills. 5.Most members are so enthusiastic they send all the material they have such as STILLS LOBBY’S to help without the batter of an eyelid. 6.So far 2 members spent spare time doing dub subs (Subs by way of English dubbed audio) for our Mandarin tracks and this is time consuming. 7.2 members spends time going to his local library searching for info on reels for possible projects and one member has recently found From The Highway on reels during his research. 8.We all vote each project in democratic manner and final decisions on future projects are on this basis. 9.FLK Edit Team does all the editing and Authoring of the DVD’s In all every single member offers something to the cause and so far we have managed to finish 4 projects as a TEAM EFFORT the titles are:- 1.Ming Patriots – UNCUT Anamorphic widescreen duel audio Mandarin with English subtitles and English Dubbed with added features. 2.4 Real Friends- UNCUT Anamorphic widescreen duel audio Mandarin with English subtitles and English Dubbed with added features. 3.Tormentor - UNCUT Anamorphic widescreen audio Mandarin with English subtitles. 4.Hitman in The Hand Of Buddha - UNCUT Anamorphic widescreen duel audio Mandarin with English subtitles and English Dubbed. 5.Wolf Devil Woman – This is our most recent project in completion now. 3 audios 2 different English dubs with Mandarin and English subtitles Who said fans cant come together and do something constructive as oppose to bickering and slagging each other for a pecking order or worst still superiority in knowledge over movie industry the original Asian community don’t care for much these days. The AMRS has gone as far as dedicating all our projects to the LATE LINN HAYNES and all our DVD’s are displaying a dedication signature at the end of the DVD’s in memory of a good friend and fellow member Linn Haynes. Our thread displaying members posts are invisible to FLK members however we have rules and tenants in joining this club hence we do not display the AMRS club open to all. All our present members are overjoyed to play a part in the effort and are all serious as to the existence of the club being a non-profit making initiative and its all FAN based…. Why bother with the text wars and fights when we can do something for ourselves….The fact remains that life is a short experience and some of our friends have died and this is a reminder LIFE IS SHORT!!!...3 members so far died on our forum and they were all very good fans. AMRS is no secret its just that we only seek to have members who want the best for the genre and maintain the hobby in a civil manner. I want to thank Thundered Mantis for his kind words and I hope the negativity stops with his last post…The answer to your question in regards to "Kung Fu From Beyond the Grave" and "Crystal Fist" versions wide?...These are such masterpieces these 2 movies and damn!! They need the full works IMO such as re-mastered and the extra’s but sadly I don’t have the proper widescreen prints for these..But from time to time I receive many new letterbox prints and I keep a vigilante eye for letterbox prints always…if I come across these I will PM you ASAP!!! In the meantime check this out!!! The best we have for Crystal Fist: Not much but its ok IMO!!!...but not full letterbox.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member HAZ Posted December 8, 2008 Member Share Posted December 8, 2008 I think this thread has been civil on all counts. I haven't seen a text war at all. FLK is a great resource for fans. Personally, I'm a big fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member spannick Posted December 8, 2008 Member Share Posted December 8, 2008 KUNG FU FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE shouldn't be so hard; the JP VHS in in wonderful 2.35, isn't it? it pops up on ebay from time to time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member thundered mantis Posted December 8, 2008 Member Share Posted December 8, 2008 Pete, I´m sure most of fans here do highly regard FLK efforts to bring us so many classics and rare new waves in great presentation, with menus, covers, etc. As far as I know, thanks to FLK, LBX versions of Mystery of Chess Boxing, Young Avenger, Blood Tears, Snake on Monkey Shadow, Shaolin Temple vs Lama, etc. are there, easy for the fans to get. So I´m happy we have FLK and Rarekf as complement for Celestial, Joy Sales, VV, Rarescope and Greenfan. The more the merrier! LETS FACE FACTS NONE OF THE MAJOR COMPANIES care about kung fu much anymore with exception of a few….. So true man About the Crystal Fist, thanks for the screens, your version is better qual. than mine, although they seem similar aspect ratio. I´ve tried to upload an screen of same moment than yours to compare: My source is a like fifth hand spanish VHS. I am sure I´ve seen at someplace nice screenshots, like 2.00 and very good video qual. Maybe german source? Will search and if I find, I´ll PM you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member spannick Posted December 8, 2008 Member Share Posted December 8, 2008 German CRYSTAL FIST VHS is Widescreen (don't remember Ratio, but surely not 2.35), but most likely cut. sadly no 35mm Print appeared yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member thundered mantis Posted December 8, 2008 Member Share Posted December 8, 2008 Spannik I heard you. Thanks a lot. Which ebay? ebay.jp? Hope not, japanese character sites are the hardest for me to surf. I can cope with german, french, italian, whatever, but japanese is too much. :l I´ll begin looking for the japanese title of the VHS... Seems we crossed messages again about Crystal Fist. On OFDB there are not specs posted on the exact aspect ratio of the german versions. It´s incredible that this high caliber film has been neglected a proper release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member spannick Posted December 8, 2008 Member Share Posted December 8, 2008 well no, last time i saw it online on www.ebay.com (it went SKY-HIGH btw) it was on offer with the English Title, so there's no problem finding it when it's on. very fine Print; i think the Subs are even in the Letterbox, so nothing is inside the Picture if i remember correctly. maybe i can find my Version and post some caps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Flashlegs Pete Jr Posted December 8, 2008 Author Member Share Posted December 8, 2008 German CRYSTAL FIST VHS is Widescreen (don't remember Ratio, but surely not 2.35), but most likely cut. sadly no 35mm Print appeared yet. Spannick we use to deal good exchanges about 3 years ago....we could have done a lot of good projects together, but we never got things off the ground my friend....Believe me if we want to flourish as fans we have to work together and DO FOR OURSELVES its the only way NOW!!! German CRYSTAL FIST VHS is Widescreen (don't remember Ratio, but surely not 2.35), but most likely cut. sadly no 35mm Print appeared yet. I think we can splice these scenes back on and make it look good. I did it with Hitman In the Hand Of Buddha I used the Korean print and spliced scenes back in the letterbox (Raw) VCD print and damn! it looked OK.. About the Crystal Fist, thanks for the screens, your version is better qual. than mine, although they seem similar aspect ratio. I´ve tried to upload an screen of same moment than yours to compare: Thundered Mantis... listen my friend send me a e-mail and I will send you a FLK print of Crystal Fist FREE!! its not a big deal my e-mail is flashlegskungfu@easynet.co.uk You are right here we are chasing RARES!!! when the classics such as Crystal Fist and Kung Fu Beyond the Grave need the REAL MCKOY JOB!!! Pete, I´m sure most of fans here do highly regard FLK efforts to bring us so many classics and rare new waves in great presentation, with menus, covers, etc. Well I must say I refuse to send anyone a movie without the FLK treatment because its all about presentation with us and I also believe the FANS DESERVE MORE....We fans a like a beacon of light that keeps the GENRE ALIVE PERIOD!!! The companies out there read our posts and utilise them as GOOD ADVICE IN SOME CASES BUT THEY STILL HAVE NO IDEA!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member spannick Posted December 8, 2008 Member Share Posted December 8, 2008 i got enough work here doing DVDs for Germany with rare Martial Arts Stuff - i'm one of the few guys in the Business here (hell, maybe the ONLY one except cmv, who have not much on offer lately in this Section) who cares a lot about these Movies (doing them for DVDs that are avaiable widely in Stores) and offer really worthy Presentations for them - but without Help from countless Friends it wouldn't work either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member HAZ Posted December 8, 2008 Member Share Posted December 8, 2008 i got enough work here doing DVDs for Germany with rare Martial Arts Stuff - i'm one of the few guys in the Business here (hell, maybe the ONLY one except cmv, who have not much on offer lately in this Section) who cares a lot about these Movies (doing them for DVDs that are avaiable widely in Stores) and offer really worthy Presentations for them - but without Help from countless Friends it wouldn't work either I only wish you guys would have added subs to Shaolin Mystagogue. Germany makes some of the best DVD's out there. Also, I'm really excited about FLK's Wolf Devil Woman. Finally, a subbed version! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member thundered mantis Posted December 8, 2008 Member Share Posted December 8, 2008 Thundered Mantis... listen my friend send me a e-mail and I will send you a FLK print of Crystal Fist FREE!! Thank you very much my friend that´s really kind of you, but there´s really no need. Tell you what, I´ll email you sending you my list of "rare" movies (not too rare, but anyway there could be something there you might be interested in ) and we´ll see if we could trade so it´s not a complete waste of your time. Will contact you as soon as I sort out some trades I´m currently into. Spannik, I´ve sent you mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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