Member falkor Posted December 1, 2008 Member Share Posted December 1, 2008 Clan Of The White Lotus is my 4th favourite Shaw Brothers movie of all-time. 8 Diagram Pole Fighter is my 6th favourite SB movie. They are both great movies, which I would both rate equally, 5/5, but here's why I believe the former to be superior to the latter... Clan Of The White Lotus *Action-packed. Gordon Liu fights White Lotus, the main bad guy, no fewer than 3-4 times! He also takes on Wang Lung Wei twice in equally impressive duels, as well as other henchmen. *First class choreography; It doesn't come better than this! LKL's imaginative ideas behind the fight scenes are absolutely genius, ie. the paper dolls, light technique and pressure points. This is a proper martial arts film about martial arts, with training. *Location (the 100 steps), backgrounds (Chu Yuan gothic style) and sets (reindeers and other props) help create an amazing atmosphere together with 2 great theme tunes: one when Gordon is training "Woman style" with the very flexible Auntie, and another when Gordon visits the White Lotus at his temple each time. *Comedy. The comedy is really good in this, and proves that you can have a good Kung Fu movie without being serious. Jackie Chan could learn a lot from watching this. *Lo Lieh. Well, what I can say... This is Lo Lieh's best ever acting performance--period. He even directed this masterpiece himself, you know? 8 Diagram Pole Fighter *This is what you would call an epic more than anything else, but in this instance, the film also happens to be a classic. However, filming crowds isn't always the best way to go about things, IMO, when it comes to Kung Fu films. Emphasis on duels is more important IMHO... *Choreography. The duel against Philip Ko is very high level, though it wouldn't rank in my Top 10 favourite fight scenes of all-time. Lu Feng's spearwork in several Venoms films, if you really analyse it, is actually somewhat superior to the staff work seen in 8 Diagram. Also, the crowded end fight in 8 Diagram between Gordon, Wang Lung Wei, Pun Mei and the other bad guys--not including the scenes with the monks--is not as good as the aforementioned mid-fight duel with Philip. However, I am comparing very high calibre fight scenes here, and there isn't really much in it between 8 Diagram and Lu Feng based Venoms films, so this doesn't take anything away from the overall movie. *The single best thing about 8 Diagram is the extremely imaginative and genius ideas about incorporating wooden dummies of wolves in training together with the teeth mechanisms. The wolf training and the way its applied to the end fight--together with the philosophy behind it--is really the main thing that stands out in 8 Diagram and makes it what it is together with the great story and dramatics: an epic Top 10 Shaw Brothers classic of all time, one of the best movies ever made (no denying that), albeit somewhat inferior to Clan Of The White Lotus it has to be said. Discuss... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member TibetanWhiteCrane Posted December 1, 2008 Member Share Posted December 1, 2008 i don't much like crowded fight scenes either... prefer a good one on one, or two on one! If your gonna have a lot of people fighting at the same time, then intercut, like the Po Chi Lam courtyard fight in Magnificent Butcher... that is masterclass! Wouldn't put the Gordon vs Philip fight in a top 10 either, but it is most def a hall of famer! I pretty much agree with all your points! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member falkor Posted December 1, 2008 Author Member Share Posted December 1, 2008 Glad you agree... I thought I would try to highlight some things that fans may be unconsciously aware of when they watch these classics (one at a time; never side-by-side). Also, to compliment my Top 10 topic I wanted to show how one might go about ranking 2 very highly rated films, by breaking it down into some of the various components that make up a classic (so to speak). However, maybe Clan of the White Lotus is underated as evident so far from the Top 10 topic, so I hope to have raised some awareness there, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member greenfan Posted December 1, 2008 Member Share Posted December 1, 2008 I would contest the idea that Lo Lieh directed 'Clan of the White Lotus,' but he definitely owns the screen in that film. I think I'm leaning towards Eight Diagram Pole Fighter, in a straight fight between the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member falkor Posted December 1, 2008 Author Member Share Posted December 1, 2008 I think I'm leaning towards Eight Diagram Pole Fighter, in a straight fight between the two. Most people do, as its more of a higher budget, polished production. I think a certain type of Kung Fu fan on the same wavelength as myself might prefer Clan, though they would be a minority. Plus, there's even members here who are fans of Shaw Brothers films in general, regardless of martial arts content (as shown by the Top 10 topic). To try and simplify it somewhat. 8 Diagram has the edge on movie/production values, storyline, drama, epic style as you might get in a classic war movie. It's also great for fans who prefer weapons over hand-to-hand. BUT, there's no way the choreography is quite on the same level as White Lotus. Just imagine 10 judges at the Olympics... you cut out the fight scenes of 8 diagram and pit them against White Lotus. Regardless of weapons vs. hand-to-hand, based on what I said about Lu Feng films and Clan's exceptional hand-to-hand fights, the judges are going to hold up higher score cards everytime for Lotus. And I'm sorry, but the acting is actually superior in Clan Of The White Lotus as well. It's not just Lo Lieh who acts well, but also Lam Fai-Wong. In 8 Diagram, Fu Sheng plays plays his role well, but there wasn't the opportunity here for Fu Sheng to play his usual charismatic type of character. Gordon Liu is Gordon Liu. As an actor, Wang Lung Wei doesn't get to shine in either Clan or Pole Fighters. In Pole Fighters, the person playing the bad guy isn't a famous actor. To be honest, I have watched Pole Fighters more than most of you have had hot dinners (though you've probably seen it more than me), yet I had forgotten who the bad guy/traitor was and what he looked like! I just could not picture his face, until I saw him again after the intro... "PPPPUUUUUUNNN MEEEEEEEIIIIIII, YOU TRAITOR!!!!!!!!!!" You have to really analyse what it is about 8 Diagram and martial arts films that you like... One aspect comes down to how pure you like your martial arts movies or whether you prefer elements from other movie genres mixed in. If you are from a solid Hollywood background and watch a lot of general TV then the chances are you might not be a "pure" Kung Fu fan, or you may be from a Spaghetti Western background, but then I don't want to start labelling everyone and putting them in imaginary pigeon holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Iron Boat Posted December 3, 2008 Member Share Posted December 3, 2008 Wouldn't put the Gordon vs Philip fight in a top 10 either, but it is most def a hall of famer! I pretty much agree with all your points! I WOULD put Gordon Liu vs Philip Ko Fei in the top 10 best one on one pole duel's in film history. I certainly can't think of many that are better..... I find 8 Diagram to be superior to Clan of the White Lotus in every way, also did Lo Lieh truly direct Clan of the White Lotus, cause it feels too much like a Lar Kar Leung movie to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member FrankBolte Posted December 3, 2008 Member Share Posted December 3, 2008 I find 8 Diagram to be superior to Clan of the White Lotus in every way. same here ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member falkor Posted December 3, 2008 Author Member Share Posted December 3, 2008 It would help this topic immensely if you guys could please provide an explanation as to why you think 8 Diagram is superior. SB was the largest studio in HK with a big reputation, and you know how much pride the Chinese have, so why doubt the director credit? Lo Lieh has obviously based the film almost entirely around his own talents; you can tell he's the main man in Clan. LKL was Action Choreographer. Remember: Kung Fu films are only as good as their bad guys! Therefore, going by this rule alone, 8 Diagram is lucky to be in anyone's Top 10. How many other films with crappy villains can be made to be this good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member FrankBolte Posted December 4, 2008 Member Share Posted December 4, 2008 Remember: Kung Fu films are only as good as their bad guys! Therefore, going by this rule alone, 8 Diagram is lucky to be in says who ? i do not agree here,i dont watcha kung fuflick for its badguy alone..a kung fu flick should offer some good kung fu,it should have a nice story if possible..of course the main character, so to speak hero, should be likeable.. of course the bad guy should be a real bad ass... lots of kung fu flicks have just a average bad guy but still rock because of the kung fu in it... It would help this topic immensely if you guys could please provide an explanation as to why you think 8 Diagram is superior. well to me clan is a rather average movie,nice to watch,good to have in the collection but it doesnt reach anything for me like 8 diagram does... 8 diagram has this melancolic feeling which LKL suffered from due to fu shengs death..its almost like that LKL used Gordon to express his feelings.. they are all connected,fu sheng baisee'd to LKL so he became LKL's disciple...when fu sheng died LKL was heartbroken..since then until now he accepted only 2 or 3 students ..so all those feelings he put in that movie.. its not about the fake backgrounds in the battle scene its about the tension about the emotions that the movie expresses...sorry but clan doesnt come anywhere near to that imo. again its only my opinion but obviously also to quiet a lot people so that actually kills the therory that a movie is only as good as its bad guy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member falkor Posted December 4, 2008 Author Member Share Posted December 4, 2008 If I want to experience those emotions you describe then I can go off and watch a Hollywood melodrama. I watch movies for completely different reasons to you, to be entertained by amazing feats of martial arts peformed by wise old men with white hair who have to train hard throughout the movie to justify their skill, so this helps explain our differing opinions. The "bad guys" saying is not a strict statement to be taken 100% literally. I simply quoted it to try and make people see things from other perspectives. In other words, its not some smoking gun statement to dismiss 8 Diagram; its simply another of the many points I've raised in this discussion to explain why I believe Clan to be overall superior. Just because Fu Sheng died and you feel sad about this because 8 Diagram was his last movie he appeared in, which had to be completed during a very traumatic time for all other cast and crew involved in the production, and this is reflected on-screen reminding you of the whole tragedy, it doesn't make it a superior film. I feel its a great shame that Fu Sheng is no longer with us and wonder what classics he would have gone on to produce, but I am not going to pretend 8 Diagram is the greatest film ever made simply because it has this dramatic event attached to it. Bruce Lee's death was used in the same way to try and make him and his movies seem like the best thing since sliced bread, but as much as Bruce was a great martial artist and actor, I still think Hwang Jang Lee is the real God (and he's still alive somewhere in Korea). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Tosh Posted December 4, 2008 Member Share Posted December 4, 2008 I've only seen CotWL once and it was a old vhs so it's hard for me to really compare the two, but I do remember thinking something lacking in CotWL compared to Executioners of Shoalin, I compare those two because I watched them back to back for the first time back in the day. 8DPF though I have to disagree on, I thought the villains were very real and more historical compared to Lo Lieh's villain which seemed more based on fantasy, certinaly nothing wrong with that(hey I love Battle Wizard for christ sake), but 8DPF I took more seriously. Once again I'd like to give CotWL another veiw, but I do agree on the sets, top notch from the Shaw artisans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member FrankBolte Posted December 5, 2008 Member Share Posted December 5, 2008 whole text Hi, i dont think u can compare bruce lee and fu sheng or the way they used their death's..while they obviously used Bruce's death to sell the movies,FuShengs death overshadowed 8 diagram but wasnt used..his character became a random figure..but knowing that he died u can feel the difference..the darker tone to this flick..i dont think it was on purpose but directors are artists so that was LKL's feeling expressed through a movie.. Why u bring in Hollywood ? This is still a kung fu movie,nothing but a kung fu movie with a bit of melancolic undertone... and its in most peoples list for a reason,if its not in yours thats alright ..i also like the movie clan but in comparison to 8 diagram i prefer 8 diagram any day.. u wanted reasons why..i gave them..now u challenging my reasons ?..haha u cant make me like clan more than 8 diagram hahaha;) just jokes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member falkor Posted December 5, 2008 Author Member Share Posted December 5, 2008 Its not so much about making you like it more, its more about analysing in detail and pointing out what we each like about our favourite movies. "Melancolic undertone" isn't what makes a martial arts movie good for me, and that is something that is used more in other genres; these type of emotions is what mainstream audiences are trying to get out of mainstream television. They don't understand what they are missing regarding kung. Being kung fans we get to witness amazing feats of choreography that are seen only by us few. We experience things like adrenaline rushes beyond what hollywood fans might get from seeing some big explosion in a mainstream action movie (doesn't have an affect on me). Again, we watch movies for different reasons, depending on how we were brought up. I stopped watching mainstream TV at the age of 13 after I discovered kung and I prefer to have no elements from those movies whatsoever in mine. I like it "pure"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 It's not even a contest. Eight-Diagram Pole Fighter wins by first round knockout. Why? It's a terrific film. Why? It just is. Clan is fine... but you guys know I don't judge a film purely by its martial content. Pole Fighter has the whole package - story, acting, character, drama, training, weapons... it's all good. Plus no silly comedy. It's a dark, serious movie. I love it. I rarely give full marks to any film but Pole Fighter is one of the few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member falkor Posted December 5, 2008 Author Member Share Posted December 5, 2008 Mark, in your tastes, you have always been a real enigma. I'm surprised you even like 8 Diagram... but remember: I like it too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member ironfistedmonk Posted December 5, 2008 Member Share Posted December 5, 2008 Nothing wrong with having a good storyline in a kung fu movie, I love the shapes but if they had those along with the kind of storylines in the old SB swordplay stuff then these movies would be a million times better. There's no reason why good kung fu shouldn't be accompanied by a good story. I'm still undecided which out of Clan and 8DPF I prefer, Clan does have Lo Lieh in fox mode and some nice action but it doesn't have that special feeling that 8DPF has, that you are watching a truly great kung fu movie. I don't know how to describe Clan, the film feels quite sparse although Lo Lieh's mansion/temple thingy is a great set, there's only really Gordon and Lo Lieh, no other major characters and they are the only ones who really get to face off in the movie. On the flip side Fu Shengs role in 8DPF for me was poor, it didn't fit in well with the rest of the story and I know they probably kept his part in out of respect but he played a very unconvincing mad man, I thought he was quite poor in the film TBH. The action though is superb and has that edge which the films dark tone gives it, there are tons of great kung fu films with great fight scenes which are let down by a lighthearted/comedy storyline, a serious story lends more gravitas to a fight scene IMO, they feel more important, more life and death and that final scene in 8DPF is immense. I need to watch Clan again as it's been a while but thinking about it I'd have to go with 8DPF, that final fight scene is brilliant and the film just feels more epic, I like the darkness about it which is a lot different to all of LKL's other films. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Mark, in your tastes, you have always been a real enigma. I'll take that as a compliment... I'm surprised you even like 8 Diagram... but remember: I like it too! It would be in my Chinese martial arts top ten alongside Heroes of the East. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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