Kung Fu Movies and Japan

[Jesse Smooth]

Does anyone here kinda find it odd that many kung fu movies (bashers) were popular in Japan although many portray them (Japanese) as the scum of the earth?

Fist Of Fury

Hapkido

Lady Whirlwind

King Boxer

One Armed Boxer

etc...

[Killer Meteor]

I understand that Imperial Japan was quite loathed by the Japanese people of the 70s

[prometheus126]

well, I guess I CAN clear a little bit on this. my wife told me that in japan, it's similar to white people loving blaxploitation films, like shaft and foxy brown, where white characters are portrayed as villianous characters and evil. theres a big guilt trip with japanese people about that they did in pre- and post-ww2 and alot of groups in japan (mostly koreans,) who are constantly gripping about the situation. but like the fellow who posted before me said, the characters are usually the imperials or government-based, which is as foreign to them as say a millioaire tycoon trying to poison the blacks water supply is to a regular white guy in blaxploitation films. so though the racism is prevelant, it's targeted at a group you personaly are not a part of.

[SamuraiDana]

well, I guess I CAN clear a little bit on this. my wife told me that in japan, it's similar to white people loving blaxploitation films, like shaft and foxy brown, where white characters are portrayed as villianous characters and evil. theres a big guilt trip with japanese people about that they did in pre- and post-ww2 and alot of groups in japan (mostly koreans,) who are constantly gripping about the situation. but like the fellow who posted before me said, the characters are usually the imperials or government-based, which is as foreign to them as say a millioaire tycoon trying to poison the blacks water supply is to a regular white guy in blaxploitation films. so though the racism is prevelant, it's targeted at a group you personaly are not a part of.

Kind of in the same way that WWII movies showing the allies kicking the Nazis' asses, e.g. THE DIRTY DOZEN, THE LONGEST DAY, PATTON, etc. were popular in Germany. (I'm guessing the counterparts where the allies fought the Japanese were popular in Japan as well.)

[SlothStyleKungFu]

Yeah, I mean the source of contention would be kinda' hard to justify. Any semi-sensible Japanese viewer would probably sit back and go, "Yeah, I guess we kinda' were d***s."

The real puzzler is why homegrown Japanese karate/martial action films didn't take off or, relative to how long old school martial films exploded in other Asian territories throughout the 70's and 80's, flourish a bit longer.

[SamuraiDana]

Yeah, I mean the source of contention would be kinda' hard to justify. Any semi-sensible Japanese viewer would probably sit back and go, "Yeah, I guess we kinda' were d***s."

The real puzzler is why homegrown Japanese karate/martial action films didn't take off or, relative to how long old school martial films exploded in other Asian territories throughout the 70's and 80's, flourish a bit longer.

Good question and my immediate off-the-top-of-my-head answer would be that the kinds of energy and resources that went into kung fu movies in HK and Taiwan went into the live action sentai series like "Go Ranger" and tokusatsu superhero series like "Ultraman" and its various offshoots that flourished on Japanese TV in the 1970s and 80s. Sonny Chiba's Japan Action Club recruited and trained actors for these series, which used a lot of martial arts scenes, particularly the sentai series. Chiba's partner in the last season of "Shadow Warriors" was Kenji Ohba (his onscreen partner in the sushi shop in KILL BILL VOL. 1), who got his start on sentai and tokusatsu series like "Battle Fever J" and "Space Sheriff Gavan," where he fights a lot.

One could also argue that the Zatoichi and Lone Wolf and Cub films (and TV series) amounted to Japanese equivalents of HK kung fu films.

Also, while a lot of Taiwan-produced kung fu films were independent productions made outside of the big studios like Shaw and Golden Harvest, and you saw companies like Goldig and Seasonal flourish for a time, Japan did not have a big tradition of independent production. Filmmakers worked for Toho, Toei, Shochiku, Daiei and Nikkatsu and whatever TV networks existed back then. (Toei did both movie and TV production.) You didn't work outside of the system and expect to get much distribution.

Personally I would have loved to see more straight martial arts films like Chiba's THE KILLING MACHINE from Japan in that era. I would have loved to see more Yakuza films get U.S. distribution back then. (And I'd love to see more of them come out on DVD here now.)

[prometheus126]

Kind of in the same way that WWII movies showing the allies kicking the Nazis' asses, e.g. THE DIRTY DOZEN, THE LONGEST DAY, PATTON, etc. were popular in Germany. (I'm guessing the counterparts where the allies fought the Japanese were popular in Japan as well.)

pretty much. the discussion actually came up when she told me john waynes pacific war movies were popular back then. I found that pretty hard to believe and she went on and told me the entire situation. but I also heard the film the rebel did pretty well in france.

[prometheus126]

Good question and my immediate off-the-top-of-my-head answer would be that the kinds of energy and resources that went into kung fu movies in HK and Taiwan went into the live action sentai series like "Go Ranger" and tokusatsu superhero series like "Ultraman" and its various offshoots that flourished on Japanese TV in the 1970s and 80s. Sonny Chiba's Japan Action Club recruited and trained actors for these series, which used a lot of martial arts scenes, particularly the sentai series. Chiba's partner in the last season of "Shadow Warriors" was Kenji Ohba (his onscreen partner in the sushi shop in KILL BILL VOL. 1), who got his start on sentai and tokusatsu series like "Battle Fever J" and "Space Sheriff Gavan," where he fights a lot.

One could also argue that the Zatoichi and Lone Wolf and Cub films (and TV series) amounted to Japanese equivalents of HK kung fu films.

Also, while a lot of Taiwan-produced kung fu films were independent productions made outside of the big studios like Shaw and Golden Harvest, and you saw companies like Goldig and Seasonal flourish for a time, Japan did not have a big tradition of independent production. Filmmakers worked for Toho, Toei, Shochiku, Daiei and Nikkatsu and whatever TV networks existed back then. (Toei did both movie and TV production.) You didn't work outside of the system and expect to get much distribution.

Personally I would have loved to see more straight martial arts films like Chiba's THE KILLING MACHINE from Japan in that era. I would have loved to see more Yakuza films get U.S. distribution back then. (And I'd love to see more of them come out on DVD here now.)

yeah, you pretty much took my answer with that samuriadana. japan had pretty much alot of other outlets of media to look towards and japans answer to martial arts films of that era were tokusatsus which were weekly and cost alot less money to make and japans national action film style was chambara, as the western was ours and kung fu was chinas.

also, most karate movies back then were made on the fly, cheap, quick and exploitative, so japanese martial arts movies looked alot less polished then HK kung fu movies and the choreography wasn't up to par with hong kongs stuff at the time, since chinese choreography goes hand in hand with peking opera style and japans opera style, kabuki, always went towards samurais (probably on account that karate came from okinawa rather then the main islands.)

though I would have loved to have seen more karate movies from japan, especially more technical martial arts from sonny, etsuko, hiroyuki and the gang before they went to the katana themselves. plus I'd love to see more yakuza films get distributed over here!!

[Jesse Smooth]

Interesting. I've always wondered about that. I do agree with the rest of you as far as wishing more 'karate' films were made. Considering the fact that back then, karate was still a relatively 'new' martial art, I feel that they could have been very creative with the art and choreography. perhaps, we shall see a new wake of Japanese karate movies...wait, who am I kidding? I do wish that BCI would put out more Etsuko movies. I also wish that she would come out from obscurity for at least an interview.

I've never seen any yakuza films (except for The Yakuza LOL!). Seriously, I know there's good stuff out there that I'd love to see someday.

[SamuraiDana]

I've never seen any yakuza films (except for The Yakuza LOL!). Seriously, I know there's good stuff out there that I'd love to see someday.

A good place to start is the Yakuza Papers/Battles without Honor and Humanity box set of five Yakuza films directed by Kinji Fukasaku (MESSAGE FROM SPACE, BATTLE ROYALE, etc.). I found this set at a reasonable price at a local video store. But Amazon's selling it for about $90. You might be able to rent the individual films.

But Fukasaku did not direct traditional Yakuza films. The style is very different from the more ritualized, formal style of most Yakuza films. Fukasaku was more realistic and more critical of the traditional ethos. Still I want to see more of the traditional ones, but they're only at Japanese video stores without subtitles.