Member FrankBolte Posted November 21, 2008 Member Share Posted November 21, 2008 ok,check this video please..I use this for examples... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lVSLDzSKo8 1.right after the SB Intro,what they do are movements from hung kuen, here LKL used bits and pieces from the fist sets called mui fah kuen,gung gee fook fu kuen..additionally he used a few choy li fut movements (which is another southern chinese style). 2.Fu Sheng goes through the death alley,when he fights the first 2 opponents..he uses plenty of hung kuen blocks..and strikes he uses geng sao ,bong sao (very common blocks in hung kuen), palm strikes from the gung gee hand set...(u wanted to get technically) the next 2 opponents with sticks,same blocks and strikes..here he uses a lot of gwa choi (which is element gold/metal -Gum) this strike is a downfalling sort of strike hitting with the backhand..the arm remains bend while doing this... against the next 2 guys with single butterfly knives (those knives being used in pairs usually)..same again..lots of blocks double buddha palm strikes (seong fat cheong) against 2 opponent with staffs,before they attach Fu shengs does the opening of the handset Gung Gee Fook Fu kuen,thats when the palms going forward..rifgt after that he uses a doubleblock against the staffs.. against the double dagger (seong bei sao) guy he uses tiger tale kick from Gung Gee and crecent jump kick from mui fah kuen... anyway ,the point is that LKL did choreographed and used what he knows best..thats hung gar,its never pure hung gar though and of course the choreography improved from movie to movieso if u compare the first shaolin movie with a later one then yes theres a difference in quality.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member teako170 Posted November 21, 2008 Member Share Posted November 21, 2008 ok,check this video please..I use this for examples... Nice breakdown Franky! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member falkor Posted November 21, 2008 Member Share Posted November 21, 2008 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ok,check this video please..I use this for examples... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lVSLDzSKo8 OK mate; thanks for providing an analysis of that video. I see the palm strikes you are referring to etc. Good work! Those Hung techniques may be effective in real life, but without the Tiger and Crane routines, they provide only average entertainment IMO. In other words, they are showcasing a Shaolin technique without the animal styles that would become the norm in late 70s shapes productions. LKL choreographed many films prior to Men From The Monastery in the "basher" period, but did he feature Hung Gar in any of these? Angry Guest (1972) Delightful Forest (1972) Boxer from Shantung (1972) Four Riders (1972) Man of Iron (1972) Breakout from Oppression (1973) The Pirate (1973) The Delinquent (1973) Police Force (1973) The Iron Bodyguard (1973) The Blood Brothers (1973) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Tosh Posted November 21, 2008 Member Share Posted November 21, 2008 Wow Franky, thanks for the lesson, it's very interesting to know what is authentic KF coming out of these movies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member FrankBolte Posted November 21, 2008 Member Share Posted November 21, 2008 OK mate; thanks for providing an analysis of that video. I see the palm strikes you are referring to etc. Good work! Those Hung techniques may be effective in real life, but without the Tiger and Crane routines, they provide only average entertainment IMO. In other words, they are showcasing a Shaolin technique without the animal styles that would become the norm in late 70s shapes productions. LKL choreographed many films prior to Men From The Monastery in the "basher" period, but did he feature Hung Gar in any of these? Angry Guest (1972) Delightful Forest (1972) Boxer from Shantung (1972) Four Riders (1972) Man of Iron (1972) Breakout from Oppression (1973) The Pirate (1973) The Delinquent (1973) Police Force (1973) The Iron Bodyguard (1973) The Blood Brothers (1973) I have not seen all of these,he most likely used less hung kuen in those..when I remember right he really started to use hung kuen in movies when they had to find an answer to Bruce Lee.. but they used Hung Kuen already way earlier in the black and white Wong Fei Hung movies in which Lau Kar Leungs father ,Lau Jaam, played his own master Lam Sai Wing.Also LKL can be seen in some of those old films so he had an early input... also ,i have an chinese article from 1971 where LKL describes how his training with his father was,its reads almost like a training sequence from the shaolin movies he later made... Breakout from Oppression (1973) some call this the first shapes movie..it has a lot of tiger crane movements Tiger and Crane in a pair fist(Fu Hok Seong Ying Kuen) this is a real good discussion here...Im more on the martial arts side but love the old movies specially from my Sigung (grandmaster) LKL.. so lots of things about the movies I dont know..like I didnt know men from the monastry was the first from the shaolin series... to show how deeply the lau family is connected with hung kuen history check this pic... it show the father of LKL Lau Jaam standing to the right,next to him the 10th son of the real Wong Fei Hung (many hung gar schools used his picture in their school and thought it was wong fei hung himself but theres no picture existing) in front of him the Lady is Mok Gwai Lam the last wife of WFH... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member falkor Posted November 21, 2008 Member Share Posted November 21, 2008 Without the Tiger and Crane routines included, I think Hung Gar could be grouped--for the sake of movies--with any other punch and block martial arts technique, like Karate. There is plenty of bashers that feature palm techniques. When I watch Men From The Monastery I don't see Fu Sheng expressing "shapes"; the only shape-shifter in Men From The Monastery is Chi Kuan Chun, who is a natural to the 5 animal styles starring in his debut film. I think it took Heroes Two to really pioneer the kung fu movie and shift it in a new direction to what Bruce Lee had made popular. Shapes is really synonymous with animal styles at a time when choreographer began to advance. Again, I don't think it's Hung Gar or Shaolin that is strictly defining of "shapes". It took a practitioner like FrankyLau to give an interpretation of Men From The Monastery fights being of the Hung Gar style, otherwise to the average viewer it doesn't really look any different from typical bashers. However, when we witness the arcing movements of the Snake & Crane in JC's masterpiece, we know we are dealing with shapes. Breakout from Oppression (1973) some call this the first shapes movie..it has a lot of tiger crane movements Tiger and Crane in a pair fist(Fu Hok Seong Ying Kuen) I've been unable to ascertain whether this movie was shot in 1973 or perhaps a low budget piece that LKL was involved in as a sideline to his SB work. Unfortunately, I do not have many magazines from the period, which are the main source for resolving movie dates. Indeed, if it was made in 1973 and features Tiger and Crane, then it could quite rightly be given the title of first shapes. It would be interesting to find out if animal styles are featured in any other movies from 1972-1974, including independent productions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member bjv666 Posted November 21, 2008 Member Share Posted November 21, 2008 Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member falkor Posted November 22, 2008 Member Share Posted November 22, 2008 Yeah, I noticed that release date for Breakout' at the HKFA, but the theory is that it was completed a lot earlier. Is it featured in any of your magazines from 1973-1978? The Shaolin theme seems to go hand-in-hand with animal styles, and I'm having trouble finding pre-1976 independent productions that feature either. Kung Fu TV series is one thing I never thought of; thanks for bringing this to my attention. I only ever watched the feature-length movie as David Carradine turned me off watching that crap. The series is probably worth a look in now though! I was actually going to try a keyword search in IMDB for "Shaolin" to see what would come up, maybe a James Bond film or something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member FrankBolte Posted November 22, 2008 Member Share Posted November 22, 2008 shapes were used already in the black and white Wong fei hung movies... search youtube,there you find Kwan Tak Hing using drunken fist against Yuen HsiaoTien using monkey fist...theres even a video where u can see the last wife of Wong Fei Hung performing tiger crane..also from the WFH movies... of course at this time they didnt look as good... as for break out from oppression,I doubt that this movie is from 1978.. its probably between 1973-1976 I will ask when Im in Hk early nxt year,I will meet Gordon Liu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member falkor Posted November 22, 2008 Member Share Posted November 22, 2008 Hey Frankie, yeah, I'm aware about the early B&W films, but am concerned with the "modern" type of Kung Fu movie shot in colour after Bruce Lee became popular. In other words, I am interested in the transition between basher and shapes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member FrankBolte Posted November 22, 2008 Member Share Posted November 22, 2008 Hey Frankie, yeah, I'm aware about the early B&W films, but am concerned with the "modern" type of Kung Fu movie shot in colour after Bruce Lee became popular. In other words, I am interested in the transition between basher and shapes. fair enough,i guess then you are on the right track looking at the SB shaolin movies..it makes sense watching them in the right order and see how the choreography develops from film to film...what was the last work of the team chang cheh/lkl before men from the monastry ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member falkor Posted November 22, 2008 Member Share Posted November 22, 2008 Probably Iron Bodyguard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member falkor Posted November 22, 2008 Member Share Posted November 22, 2008 I wonder why LKL held back on using the Tiger and Crane routines in Men From The Monastery even though they decided to use Hung Gar? They used Hung Gar's Tiger and Crane in Heroes Two, but then held back on other animal styles shown in the introduction film, namely Snake and Leopard. Where did they get Chi Kuan Chun from? I would like to know more info about his martial arts background. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member FrankBolte Posted November 22, 2008 Member Share Posted November 22, 2008 Where did they get Chi Kuan Chun from? I would like to know more info about his martial arts background. chikuan chun 1949年 出生於廣東省番禺縣。 Born in Guang Dong Province, Pan Yue county。 1958年 隨家人到香港定居。 Follow his family and settle down in Hong Kong。 1961年 因自小嚮往武術，拜洪拳名師傅趙威門下，勤練武術，從不間斷。 Since his childhood he is interested in Martial Arts and becomes a Hung Kuen disciple under Master Chiu Wai. Since then he practice continuously。 1968年 進入國泰電懋影藝公司(嘉禾的前身)接受武藝班訓練。 Get into the Cathay Movie company (forerunner Jia He) and receive training in Martial Arts。 1972~1973年 參加長弓電影公司招考，經6、7次試鏡，獲錄取主演"少林子弟"。 Join the Chang Gong Movie Company, undergo 6 to 7 times a screen test and get the leading role of “Shaolin Disciple”。 1973~1974年 主演"少林五祖"、"少林寺"、"洪拳小子"。進入演藝高峰期。 Lead actor in „5 Shaolin Masters“, „Shaolin Temple“, „Hung Kuen Fellow“. Get into the high peak show business。 1974~1975年 主演"八道樓子"、"江湖漢子"、"海軍突擊隊"、"鐵二胡"。 Act the leading role of „Ba Dao Lou Zi (7 Man Army)“, “Jiang Hu Han Zi”, “Hai Jun Tu Ji Dui (Naval Commandos)”, “Tie Er Hu”。 1975~1976年 主演"馬可波羅"、"八國聯軍"、"神拳三壯士"。 Lead actor in "Marco Polo","Boxer Rebellion" and "Shen Quan San Zhuang Shi"。 1977年 離開長弓電影公司，進入長年電影公司。主演"胡惠乾血戰西禪寺"。 Leave the Chang Gong Movie Company and enter the Chang Nian Movie Company。Lead actor in "Hu Hui Qian Xue Zhan Xi Chan Si"。 1978~1979年 獨立公司，主演"神刀流星拳"、"鷹爪螳螂"、"癲馬靈猴"、"鐵脖子李勇"、"紅衣冷血金面人"...等片子。 Establish his own Movie Company。Lead actor in in "Shen Dao Liu Xing Quan"，"Eagle Claw and Mantis Fist", Dian Ma Ling Hou "Crazy Horse, Intelligent Monkey", "Iron Neck Li Yong"， "Hong Yi Leng Xue Jin Mian Ren" and other movies。 1980年 自組公司，接拍"身形拳法與步法"、"大惡客"。 Individual Company， direct and shoot movies "Shen Xing Quan Fa Yu Bu Fa"， "Da E Ke"。 1981~1986年 在台灣拍連續劇"神刀"。逐漸轉移重心往幕後工作並投身商界，淡出演藝圈。 In Taiwan shoot TV Series "Shen Dao"。 Gradually shift and concentrate to backstage job ，throw himself into business，fade out from the movie business。 2000年10月 戚冠軍武術洪拳學院成立，為保存中華民國國粹盡一份心力。 Establish the Chi Kuan-Chun Martial Arts Hong Quan Institute，to keep the National Culture of the Republic of China。 2003年5月 《醉馬騮》是邵氏投資了千萬於上海拍攝的中外合作功夫電影鉅製。 Shaw Brother’s company invest ten millions to cooperated with foreign company and shoot the movie of "Drunken Monkey" in Shanghai City. 2004年 星空傳媒集團華語節目製作總監麥當傑的掌舵最新八點檔「魔界」。 Xing Kong mass media company’s director-general of the Chinese Show steer the newest TV show： Evil Boundary. 2005年 於2005年參加導演徐克所拍攝之電影七劍。 Join the movie “Seven Swords” directed by Tsui Hark (Xu Ke). taken from http://www.chikuanchun.com/ I wonder why LKL held back on using the Tiger and Crane routines in Men From The Monastery even though they decided to use Hung Gar? They used Hung Gar's Tiger and Crane in Heroes Two, but then held back on other animal styles shown in the introduction film, namely Snake and Leopard. well,did he really hold back ? Or was it just part of the development... ok,hung kuen has 4 main sets Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen taming the tiger within an I shape this is what Chi Kuan tai performs in 3 hung styles it has already all 5 animals (tiger,crane,snake,leopard and dragon and all 5 elements) they are just not as obvious Fu Hok Seong Ying Kuen (tiger crane double shape fist this emphasizes more on tiger and crane obviously but features still the other 3 animals...within this set u have a section where you perform 10 tiger movements in a row..(guangdong sap fu) the crane part is rather short..there are single crane movements all over the set... Sap ying kuen 10 shape fist this is the 5 animals and 5 elemnts combined..it has the same tigerand crane parts from the Tiger Crane set... Tit sin kuen iron thread fist this is what Fu Sheng performs with iron rings in in the intro of Hung Boxing Kid...this is an internal set,lots of breathing and dynamic tension..this is mostly dragon. This set comes from Tit Kiu Saam (Ti Lung played this character in opium and the kung fu master) those 4 forms are the core of hung kuen...you see movements of those in all shaolin films..in the first one they didnt use a lot of the crane and tiger moves..but I guess since this was the beginning of the shaolin cycle the ideas were not yet fully unfolded.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member teako170 Posted November 22, 2008 Member Share Posted November 22, 2008 ....... 2005年 於2005年參加導演徐克所拍攝之電影七劍。 Join the movie “Seven Swords” directed by Tsui Hark (Xu Ke). taken from http://www.chikuanchun.com/ Glad to see that someone added English to his site. Some years back that site had a separate URL "www.chikuanchun.com/english" but it was long abandoned. I tried contacting CKC way back when through that site but he never responded. Don't if he's able to read English or not (or maybe he was just ignoring the Gweilo - haha). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member falkor Posted November 22, 2008 Member Share Posted November 22, 2008 Nice one, Franky! That's just the kind of info I needed: a timeline with an overview of Chi's background. Thanks for posting that. I didn't know Chi had a website. 1961年 因自小嚮往武術，拜洪拳名師傅趙威門下，勤練武術，從不間斷。 Since his childhood he is interested in Martial Arts and becomes a Hung Kuen disciple under Master Chiu Wai. Since then he practice continuously。 I should have guessed he was Hung based. :S 1968年 進入國泰電懋影藝公司(嘉禾的前身)接受武藝班訓練。 Get into the Cathay Movie company (forerunner Jia He) and receive training in Martial Arts。 That's interesting...I wonder if he appeared in any Cathay movies. I know they had an actor training programme, where they produced short films. 1972~1973年 參加長弓電影公司招考，經6、7次試鏡，獲錄取主演"少林子弟"。 Join the Chang Gong Movie Company, undergo 6 to 7 times a screen test and get the leading role of “Shaolin Disciple”。 "Shaolin Disciple" is Men From The Monastery, so that confirms his debut. Was it just a co-incidence Chi appeared on the scene when LKL was making the first shapes film? Maybe LKL knew Chi personally and recruited him for his new Shaolin/Hung Kuen choreographed movie? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member teako170 Posted November 22, 2008 Member Share Posted November 22, 2008 Was it just a co-incidence Chi appeared on the scene when LKL was making the first shapes film? Maybe LKL knew Chi personally and recruited him for his new Shaolin/Hung Kuen choreographed movie? There was a nice jpg of CKC & LKL on here a few months back. Believe it was Franky who originally posted it. No date though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member teako170 Posted November 22, 2008 Member Share Posted November 22, 2008 I've been unable to ascertain whether this movie was shot in 1973 or perhaps a low budget piece that LKL was involved in as a sideline to his SB work. Unfortunately, I do not have many magazines from the period, which are the main source for resolving movie dates. Umm, you looking for something like this m8? ...MilkyWay Pictorial #188 (Nov '73) ..props to Carol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member falkor Posted November 22, 2008 Member Share Posted November 22, 2008 Splendid! That's a real high level contribution... hope others appreciate it as much as I do! Thanks!! On that note, I am leaving the forum to go and watch the movie, but not before posting some images in the "Rare SB w/ MA" topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member FrankBolte Posted November 23, 2008 Member Share Posted November 23, 2008 I tried contacting CKC way back when through that site but he never responded. Don't if he's able to read English or not (or maybe he was just ignoring the Gweilo - haha). I contacted him also earlier this year,he doesnt speak english,he even replied in chinese to me..i used google translate to understand hehe..he said If i ever go to taiwan he will be meeting me ...i mailed him back in chinese (a friend translated for me) but never got a reply again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Winfred Posted November 23, 2008 Member Share Posted November 23, 2008 CKC is very friendly and also said he will meet me when I go to Taiwan. However how will we communicate in person? Although I am a Chinese, he does not speak my dialect and I can't speak Mandarin or Cantonese, just Hokkien. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member FrankBolte Posted November 23, 2008 Member Share Posted November 23, 2008 CKC is very friendly and also said he will meet me when I go to Taiwan. However how will we communicate in person? Although I am a Chinese, he does not speak my dialect and I can't speak Mandarin or Cantonese, just Hokkien. oh i guess you both need to bring pad and a pen..hehe hokkien is that the same like Fukkien,or similar ? I live in Manila's Chinatown most chinese are fukkien..so all the cantonese i learned is useless :quiet: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member falkor Posted November 23, 2008 Member Share Posted November 23, 2008 I wonder what order these were produced in? A 1) Breakout From Oppression 2) Men From The Monastery 3) Heroes Two B 1) Men From The Monastery 2) Breakout From Oppression 3) Heroes Two C 1) Men From The Monastery 2) Heroes Two 3) Breakout From Oppression Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member teako170 Posted November 23, 2008 Member Share Posted November 23, 2008 I contacted him also earlier this year,he doesnt speak english,he even replied in chinese to me..i used google translate to understand hehe..he said If i ever go to taiwan he will be meeting me ...i mailed him back in chinese (a friend translated for me) but never got a reply again... Thanks for the heads up. Would love to hang with CKC. Even if we couldn't communicate verbally, it would be amazing just to see him. I wonder what order these were produced in? Now, that's the $64000 question isn't it? I looked through some of my stuff but nothing to show reasonable cause. They all seemed to have been produced in late 73. Linn seemed sure that MFTM was done b4 HT. Its too bad Hong Kong has such a temperate climate otherwise even the slightest outdoor conditions might provide some clues. I wonder what made LKL go and work on this project in the first place? He just came off a run of roughly 15 films for SB & CC and then he was right back in with CC again for a bunch of new flix (though afterwards he would begin to branch out by working on other films). Maybe when Franky hooks up with Gordon, he can pick GL's brain for some clues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member falkor Posted November 23, 2008 Member Share Posted November 23, 2008 Terry, I reckon if somebody had a complete collection of HKMN, SS and Cinemart for the 2nd half of 1973*, he/she would be able to figure out the order. Anyway, the main problem was confirming Breakout being 1973, which is now solved thanks to you. Just this last puzzle remaining... *I remember bjv once resolved a movie date problem for Heaven and Hell via his magazine collection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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