Jackie's Lo Wei pictures...anyone like any of them?

[wmcguire18]

I wasn't even thinking of FEARLESS HYENA as a "Lo Wei" picture, even though it clearly was produced by his company. That film is excellent and feels more his third Seasonal picture than anything.

[WaverBoy]

21 hours ago, starschwar said:

I revisited New Fist of Fury and Shaolin Wooden Men within the past few months, via the 88 Films Blu-Rays.  My previous impressions were the Simitar VHS dubs from about 20 years prior - at the time, I found NFOF to be really bad, and SWM to be merely okay.

 

But with top-notch restoration, better translations, and a fresh reappraisal - I wound up liking them both a lot!  New Fist of Fury isn't really what you'd want or expect out of a Jackie Chan movie per se  - Jackie isn't even the driving force of the plot.  Noria Miao's character is probably the closest we get to a main protagonist, but it's much more of an ensemble piece, with Jackie left to do the heavy lifting.  In my memories, he was just doing a really poor Lee impersonation, but this time around I see his character as much more of a prototype for his persona in the Drunken Master movies.  Brash, but not heartless.  And while the choreography isn't anything compared to what'd come later in his career, the fights are solid.  It's actually a decent sequel to the original.  I'm basing this on the longer Mandarin version, to be clear - I haven't given the re-edited and re-written abridged Canto version a go just yet.

 

Shaolin Wooden Men is terrific, especially for this early phase!  As much as I adore Snake in Eagle's Shadow (still my favorite of his career), this one deserved to have been his big breakout instead.  It's a really cool premise - and not just the titular wooden men.  There's some visual poetry on display, contrasting martial philosophies in ways beyond combat.  This one is much more in line with Jackie's breakout phase - Snake in Eagle's Shadow through Dragon Lord - to the point where I'd even call it kind of a prototype for that era.  Strong recommendation.

 

I look forward to revisiting the rest of the Lo Wei era eventually.  In my memories, they were all poor to mediocre.  But perhaps they were just the victims of exceptionally bad home releases that obscured their actual merit.

Agreed 100% on all counts. Well put. NFoF is much better than its shoddy rep would lead you to believe — it’s a perfectly decent old-schooler on its own terms with a fine ensemble cast and some good kung fu set-tos; it just isn’t a star showcase for Jackie. Conversely, SWM is a wonderful showcase for Jackie and an extremely fine film all round, and should absolutely have been his breakout role. And yes, it’s sad how such abominable home video releases have unfairly sullied the reps of all of Jackie’s films from the Lo Wei period. But here we are, fifteen years after this thread was started (YIKES I’M GETTING OLD FAST), and they’re getting rescued at last and can finally be fairly judged on their own merits. And I’d say they’re doing just fine on that score so far. 🤓😎

I’m so glad to be able to have them in my collection. 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

Edited April 4, 2022 by WaverBoy

[Super Ninja]

I've seen Shaolin Wooden Men only once and it instantly became one of my fave pre-DM Jackie films. On the other hand, I failed to see the quality in Snake & Crane, so watching the new Blu-ray version will, as I expect, change my opinion.

[Beardys Feather]

I think people's attitudes sometimes depend on what order they have watched Jackie's films. I started with these and love them in their own right. If you check them out hoping they are in some way similar to his later stuff you might be disappointed. 

They all have something to recommend them. Shaolin Wooden Men is also the pick for me. 

[northern b]

Picked up a bunch of these on VHS many years ago then the HKLS

Personal faves

Fearless Hyena

Shaolin Wooden Men

Snake and Crane

Dragon Fist

Spiritual Kung Fu

New Fist of Fury

The others i didnt enjoy 

 

 

[dionbrother]

They're fine.  People disregard them because Jackie disses them(he had little creative control on most) and Ric Meyers was cold on them in his very dated book.  I've always found most of the Lo Wei productions to be entertaining, though none are as good as other Lo productions of the time like REBELLIOUS REIGN and BLOODY TATTOO.

[RebelIntruder]

On 4/4/2022 at 3:43 AM, Super Ninja said:

I've seen Shaolin Wooden Men only once and it instantly became one of my fave pre-DM Jackie films. On the other hand, I failed to see the quality in Snake & Crane, so watching the new Blu-ray version will, as I expect, change my opinion.

Snake and Crane Arts of Shaolin has always felt generic and mediocre to me even remastered.

[Super Ninja]

3 hours ago, RebelIntruder said:

Snake and Crane Arts of Shaolin has always felt generic and mediocre to me even remastered.

It is on account of its choreo that I'm expecting to find new respect for this movie. Judging by some of the opinions I've read here, there's more to see than I have seen. I'm especially looking forward to Jackie's fight with the three spearmen.

[DrNgor]

[facetious] People who do not like Snake and Crane Arts of Shaolin cannot be my friend. [/facetious]

[starschwar]

I finally got around to watching the shorter Cantonese version of New Fist of Fury.  I don't know how widespread that cut of the film is, but it has to be partially responsible for the movie's bad reputation.  Dispensing with much of the sequel-y nature of the film, it focuses much more on Jackie, to the near exclusion of the rest of the cast.  And it really suffers for it.  The arc Jackie's character goes through means so much less without the context of the bigger struggle portrayed in the original version.  He has this big defining character moment involving a bundle of chopsticks - the meaning of which was clearly lost on whoever recut the movie.  By excising the circumstances surrounding Jackie's character, his transformation from vagabond to hero feels very hollow.  It's very sloppy, too.  I can't say with certainty, but I'm pretty sure there are jump cuts and plot holes where none existed before.  I think they also shortened the training sequence?  The music is choppy and warped so I imagine so.  You'd think a post-SITES recut would want to keep that element intact!  Lo Wei is still credited as an actor in the new opening credits, even though he's been cut out of the movie entirely.  These movies - sometimes, the plots are just excuses for kicking.  This movie was not designed to be one of those, and trying to reshape it into that just makes for an empty experience.  Kudos to 88films for even including it for completion's sake, but I strongly recommend that anyone interested in the movie go for the original longer Mandarin cut. 

Edited May 15, 2022 by starschwar

[starschwar]

Speaking of alternate Lo Wei movie versions, I watched through Shaolin Wooden Men's alternate Cantonese soundtrack option.  It... really isn't an alternate soundtrack.  Not in the same sense as Young Master and Wheels on Meals.  It's more of an alternate song.  Just one song that kicks in every so often, with the rest of the music being unchanged from the original Mandarin.  The song itself is disco infused with alternating Japanese and English lyrics.  The rhythm of it fits what's happening onscreen... sometimes.  But it always seems to fade out abruptly and awkwardly.  It clashes so much with the sound of the traditional Chinese sounding music of the rest of the movie, it draws an almost humorous amount of attention to itself.  I can only assume this was done for a Japanese release of the movie, but I'm really not sure why they would take such a half-measure when it came to altering the soundtrack.  Does anyone know what the backstory is on this?

[thehangman]

The Shorter New fist of fury is better then the longer cut i thought.

Snake and crane and Fearless hyena prob best 2.

didn't like Killer Meteors or to kill with intrigue a tall

 

[Killer Meteor]

On 5/19/2022 at 10:50 AM, starschwar said:

Speaking of alternate Lo Wei movie versions, I watched through Shaolin Wooden Men's alternate Cantonese soundtrack option.  It... really isn't an alternate soundtrack.  Not in the same sense as Young Master and Wheels on Meals.  It's more of an alternate song.  Just one song that kicks in every so often, with the rest of the music being unchanged from the original Mandarin.  The song itself is disco infused with alternating Japanese and English lyrics.  The rhythm of it fits what's happening onscreen... sometimes.  But it always seems to fade out abruptly and awkwardly.  It clashes so much with the sound of the traditional Chinese sounding music of the rest of the movie, it draws an almost humorous amount of attention to itself.  I can only assume this was done for a Japanese release of the movie, but I'm really not sure why they would take such a half-measure when it came to altering the soundtrack.  Does anyone know what the backstory is on this?

Several of the JC-Lo Wei films, and for that matter the Bruce Lee films, had random pop-songs stuck on for their Japanese releases.

On 5/15/2022 at 12:20 PM, starschwar said:

I finally got around to watching the shorter Cantonese version of New Fist of Fury.  I don't know how widespread that cut of the film is, but it has to be partially responsible for the movie's bad reputation.  Dispensing with much of the sequel-y nature of the film, it focuses much more on Jackie, to the near exclusion of the rest of the cast.  And it really suffers for it.  The arc Jackie's character goes through means so much less without the context of the bigger struggle portrayed in the original version.  He has this big defining character moment involving a bundle of chopsticks - the meaning of which was clearly lost on whoever recut the movie.  By excising the circumstances surrounding Jackie's character, his transformation from vagabond to hero feels very hollow.  It's very sloppy, too.  I can't say with certainty, but I'm pretty sure there are jump cuts and plot holes where none existed before.  I think they also shortened the training sequence?  The music is choppy and warped so I imagine so.  You'd think a post-SITES recut would want to keep that element intact!  Lo Wei is still credited as an actor in the new opening credits, even though he's been cut out of the movie entirely.  These movies - sometimes, the plots are just excuses for kicking.  This movie was not designed to be one of those, and trying to reshape it into that just makes for an empty experience.  Kudos to 88films for even including it for completion's sake, but I strongly recommend that anyone interested in the movie go for the original longer Mandarin cut. 

NFOF definetly could do with a trim, but 20min max - not 40mins as they did with the Cantonese version!

[WaverBoy]

This afternoon’s viewing: SPIRITUAL KUNG FU (1978), via the 88 Films Blu-ray. My first time with this one. I watched it with the original Mandarin track. Yet another criminally underrated film from Jackie’s Lo Wei period; I think this one is definitely a hidden gem, and yet another nail in the coffin of the myth that the magic all began with SNAKE IN THE EAGLE’S SHADOW and DRUNKEN MASTER. There are three standout set pieces that really make this one a winner: the theft of the book, the pole & baton fight, and the final battle with the evil baddies involving the ghosts. The fight choreography is superb throughout, a testament to Jackie’s talents. The comedy is perhaps not as well integrated as it is in the later films SNAKE IN THE EAGLE’S SHADOW, DRUNKEN MASTER, THE FEARLESS HYENA and THE YOUNG MASTER, but I think it still works fine, and the wonderfully goofy ghost costumes and endearingly primitive special effects add to the charm. Georges Méliès would be proud. Nice sets and locations, and imaginative camerawork too; looks great for what must have been a very low budget. Highly recommended.

Also…is that Yuen Biao as the Tiger Ghost?

Edited May 28, 2022 by WaverBoy

[Killer Meteor]

Although Jackie's "autobiography" has SKF made prior to the Seasonal films, it appears it was actually Lo Wei's response to the success of SNAKE IN THE EAGLE'S SHADOW.

[WaverBoy]

35 minutes ago, Killer Meteor said:

Although Jackie's "autobiography" has SKF made prior to the Seasonal films, it appears it was actually Lo Wei's response to the success of SNAKE IN THE EAGLE'S SHADOW.

I’m sorry — I had just got done watching Rick Baker’s video clip where he states that it was started along with DRAGON FIST prior to the Seasonal films, then shelved and not finished until after the Seasonal films were released, but upon double checking Will Blaik’s essay in the Young Master book, he says just what you wrote above. I stand corrected, and so does Rick. (Regarding the language tracks — Will B says that SKF was a Cantonese production, but the lip movements match the Mandarin track >much< better. Thoughts?)

Although, SNAKE & CRANE ARTS OF SHAOLIN and HALF A LOAF OF KUNG FU are kung fu comedies that definitely predate the Seasonal films, so my larger point stands — Jackie’s kung fu comedy persona was there before the Seasonal films.

Edited May 29, 2022 by WaverBoy

[starschwar]

@Cognoscente posted a very well-researched timeline of Jackie's Lo Wei / Seasonal era work about a year ago.  I don't have a link to that handy, but I did make a spreadsheet for my own purposes.  Assuming that it is correct (and that I made no errors in transcribing it)

 

Half a Loaf of Kung Fu was filmed before, during, and after SITES.

Spiritual Kung Fu's filming overlapped with Half a Loaf.  SITES had finished filming by the time SKF began.

Drunken Master's filming overlaps with Spiritual Kung Fu, as well as Dragon Fist.

 

SITES was released before filming began on Spiritual Kung Fu, Drunken Master, and Dragon Fist

Drunken Master was released after everything else had wrapped, other than Fearless Hyena.

 

In other words - it is very likely that the experiences of making the Seasonal Films influenced the later Lo Wei productions.  But their success was still unknown at that point.   Only Spiritual Kung Fu, Dragon Fist, and Fearless Hyena could have been motivated by the box office side of things.

 

[WaverBoy]

2 minutes ago, starschwar said:

@Cognoscente posted a very well-researched timeline of Jackie's Lo Wei / Seasonal era work about a year ago.  I don't have a link to that handy, but I did make a spreadsheet for my own purposes.  Assuming that it is correct (and that I made no errors in transcribing it)

 

Half a Loaf of Kung Fu was filmed before, during, and after SITES.

Spiritual Kung Fu's filming overlapped with Half a Loaf.  SITES had finished filming by the time SKF began.

Drunken Master's filming overlaps with Spiritual Kung Fu, as well as Dragon Fist.

 

SITES was released before filming began on Spiritual Kung Fu, Drunken Master, and Dragon Fist

Drunken Master was released after everything else had wrapped, other than Fearless Hyena.

 

In other words - it is very likely that the experiences of making the Seasonal Films influenced the later Lo Wei productions.  But their success was still unknown at that point.   Only Spiritual Kung Fu, Dragon Fist, and Fearless Hyena could have been motivated by the box office side of things.

 

Will B says HaLoKF was in the can by the end of 1977 — not true then?

[starschwar]

4 minutes ago, WaverBoy said:

Will B says HaLoKF was in the can by the end of 1977 — not true then?

Again, it is possible I made an error. My spreadheet has Half a Loaf's production ranging from August 1977 to April 1978

[Killer Meteor]

Half a Loaf is interesting in that some of its comic set-pieces had been used by Chen Chi-Hwa several years earlier on Dragons Never Die.

 

Snake & Crane is rather straight-faced (downright brutal at times) so it feels like the weird comic tics (the two-syllable guy, the wacky beggars) were improvised during production.

[FightingFool]

Dragon fist is terrific, jackie does not add much extra value to it but it`s well written and fought adventure(and Jackie has some swift hand strikes). It`s been ages since saw magnificent bodyguards and think if see it today (waiting 88 releases it) I think still like it. To kill with ingtrigue is interesting, good action, costumes, sets and lovely villain female.

Rest are ok or bad.

Edited May 29, 2022 by FightingFool

[WaverBoy]

10 hours ago, FightingFool said:

Dragon fist is terrific, jackie does not add much extra value to it but it`s well written and fought adventure(and Jackie has some swift hand strikes). It`s been ages since saw magnificent bodyguards and think if see it today (waiting 88 releases it) I think still like it. To kill with ingtrigue is interesting, good action, costumes, sets and lovely villain female.

Rest are ok or bad.

I think SHAOLIN WOODEN MEN, SNAKE AND CRANE ARTS OF SHAOLIN, SPIRITUAL KUNG FU, DRAGON FIST and THE FEARLESS HYENA are all great. I’d put TO KILL WITH INTRIGUE at the bottom of Jackie’s Lo Wei period films, as the story is a complete mess and Jackie’s character isn’t remotely likable or even compelling, but I do still like it because of the kung fu set pieces and the interesting villainess. NEW FIST OF FURY is pretty decent, but it’s Nora’s film, not Jackie’s. Haven’t seen HALF A LOAF OF KUNG FU, KILLER METEORS or MAGNIFICENT BODYGUARDS 3D yet. I really wish Diabolik would ship my preorder of HaLoKF!!!

There definitely seems to be confusion/differences of opinion regarding the production timeline of Jackie’s films for Lo Wei. In the Dragon’s Rules featurette on the DRAGON FIST Blu-ray, David West says that DF and SPIRITUAL KUNG FU were shot before Jackie was loaned to Seasonal for SNAKE IN THE EAGLE’S SHADOW and DRUNKEN MASTER. Rick Baker says on the SKF Blu-ray that both DF and SKF began filming before Jackie started working on the Seasonal films and were finished after he returned to Lo Wei. In his essay in the book included with THE YOUNG MASTER Blu-ray, Will Blaik says that both DF and SKF were both entirely shot and finished after the Seasonal films were already in the can, and that SKF was made entirely in response to the box office success of SitES. And, Will B also says HALF A LOAF OF KUNG FU was in the can by the end of 1977, but others seem to say that it was still in production during the first half of 1978. Help!

[starschwar]

I found that timeline I mentioned earlier!  Again, I cannot vouch for the veracity, but Cognoscente really seems to be speaking with authority.

 

Quote

Filming dates...

New Fist of Fury:                            March - April 1976
Shaolin Wooden Men:                      June - July 1976
The Killer Meteors:                       Sep '76 - Jan '77
Snake & Crane Arts of Shaolin:   Nov '76 - Jul '77
To Kill with Intrigue:                     Dec '76 - Mar '77
Magnificent Bodyguards:                 Jul 5 - 20 '77
Half a Loaf of Kung Fu:                Aug '77 - Apr '78
Snake in the Eagle's Shadow:      Nov '77 - Jan '78
Spiritual Kung Fu:                         Apr '78 - Jun '78
Drunken Master:                          Apr '78 - Sep '78
Dragon Fist:                                   Jul '78 - Aug '78
Fearless Hyena:                            Oct' 78 - Dec '78

 

[Cognoscente]

It should be noted that S&C was shelved prior to the release of SITES...

SITES: March 1 - https://hkmdb.com/db/movies/view.mhtml?id=5863&display_set=eng

S&C: March 8 - https://hkmdb.com/db/movies/view.mhtml?id=5864&display_set=eng

This contradicts what Jeff Yang had Jackie said in his first book about how S&C came out during a time when Jackie desperately needed good reputation despite not having hit status (or star status rather).

The below Japanese site is a handy guide (scroll down to the red bars for the Lo Wei years).

https://kungfutube.info/mystery

It would appear that Loaf had either reshoots or extended filming done around the same time as DF because Jackie has the same bruise under his right eye which can be also seen in DM.

[WaverBoy]

<<Filming dates...

New Fist of Fury:                            March - April 1976
Shaolin Wooden Men:                      June - July 1976
The Killer Meteors:                       Sep '76 - Jan '77
Snake & Crane Arts of Shaolin:   Nov '76 - Jul '77
To Kill with Intrigue:                     Dec '76 - Mar '77
Magnificent Bodyguards:                 Jul 5 - 20 '77
Half a Loaf of Kung Fu:                Aug '77 - Apr '78
Snake in the Eagle's Shadow:      Nov '77 - Jan '78
Spiritual Kung Fu:                         Apr '78 - Jun '78
Drunken Master:                          Apr '78 - Sep '78
Dragon Fist:                                   Jul '78 - Aug '78
Fearless Hyena:                            Oct' 78 - Dec '78>>

 

By that timeline, Jackie was filming SKF and DF for Lo Wei in South Korea the same time he was filming DM for Seasonal in HK. I’m confused.

Edited May 29, 2022 by WaverBoy