Cheng Cheh vs Lau Kar Leung

[venoms5]

There really shouldn't be a comparison between the two, or better yet, it's difficult to make a fair comparison of the two artists. Both directors bring something totally different to the table. However, if not for Chang Cheh, then possibly LKL's career may not have taken off or may have taken a different trajectory than the path he ultimately took.

LKL was seemingly fiercely independent and seldom ever strayed from his "safety zone". CC was constantly trying new avenues for exploration and laying down ground rules that sometimes would cement themselves within the genres parameters, and other times, would be improved upon, or expanded by other filmmakers from Shaw's or outside their studio.

LKL was evidently a very stubborn, yet righteous man, whom I would assume is very much like the characters he plays in all his movies. CC on the other hand was incredibly loyal and just reveled in the fact that he was allowed to continue working and making movies, something he clearly loved doing despite his downward spiral in popularity during the latter part of the 70's and into the early 80's.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Great post venoms5. You make very good points.

I do think a Cheng Cheh vs Sun Chung comparison would be interesting though.

That would be a good one. Also Chor Yuen vs Sun Chung.

[Iron Boat]

agree, good post venom5

[bjv666]

If You're gonna Delete my comments, delete ALL them..

[Iron Boat]

Wow, this is the post to end all posts, good job bjv, now I need read it again just to make sure I comprehend all your points!!

[FrankBolte]

standing applause to bjv666

great, great post, can I use u as my online lawyer evertime someone says something against my sigung ?:D

[venoms5]

Despite some interesting points, I don't agree with any of it. You say GOLDEN SWALLOW was CC's only film with a female lead? Cheng Pei pei is not the lead here, Wang Yu is. She is also second billed under him in the credits. CC even said he had no desire to continue in the direction that King Hu did.

Also, regardless of whether Liu Chia Liang was CC's choreographer had little to do with how well his films did, IMO. The man had an average of 5 films in a theater in a given year. Most of CC's movies fluctuated between a little under a million and close to 2 million and these movies were loaded with violence unlike the comedies or dramas of the day which were doing more business. Then, SNAKE IN THE EAGLE'S SHADOW comes along and now you can bring your children to a kung fu flick without a lot of gory violence. The end of CC was pretty much cemented here, IMO.

You mention Pao Hsueh Li. How many HIT films did that director have? Has his legacy endured? If you mention his name to the average Chinese person, do they know who he is? Even the younger Chinese that think these older movies are poor, at least know who CC is. Nothing against Pao's career, but the man had lasting effect on the genre. Most all of those CC films you mentioned were hits whether minor or otherwise and that's just the Hong Kong figures.

Changing trends was what led to his demise at the BO. Those big super productions of his were mangled and severely truncated lessening their impact. Not only that, but his experimental period during the 1975-1977 years ('77 being his worst movie year, IMO) helped immensely in displaying him as old hat. When the kung fu comedy rolled around, he failed at that as well save for some good moments in some of the venom movies, but you'd be hard pressed to find any Asians that know who those guys are or even remember them, that is, ALL FIVE OF THEM.

Both CC's and Liu Chia Liang's styles are the polar opposite of one another and making a comparison of their strengths and weakness makes for a far better analysis than who was better.

[gorhama]

Everyone has brought up great points!!

I have a hard time choosing. I will say as a complete filmaker CC is more skilled.

From a pure martial arts movie standpoint in terms of choreography and why people are fighting...LKL is tops for me.

I do feel that without CC, it may have taken LKL longer to become a director or even become a director as CC changed everything with One Armed Swordsman and the male lead in martial arts movies. Also CC really started the tradition in HK cinema of working with the same group of actors and developing a rapport with them and he got great performances out of them.

Granted that could have been a SHAW BRO'S thing since they were under contract with them. But he did put the right people together in his movies.

Again it's hard to compare as they had 2 different views on filmmaking and martial arts movies.

[shaolin drunkard]

I am not sure should these VS topics exist(have poll maybe),liu followers have strong issues to side him...but I know what I like most..CC movies with venoms.Their choreography(amazing weapon skills with acrobatics)appeals most to me.

[BaronK]

"I am not sure should these VS topics exist" "I know what I like most" "appeals most to me"

That's it there. Vs, polls, etc. They all lead to ripping and end up denigrating. Vs and polls are basically asking you to choose when you have no reason at all to do so. You can like what and who and however many. The only time you have to make a choice is when you have money but can only get one thing. That's a choice. LKL and CC? What vs? What choice? There is none. There is only both.

[The Dragon]

Definetly a thread to read.

[shaolin drunkard]

DONE WITHOUT LIU CHIA-LIANG

============================

HAVE SWORD, WILL TRAVEL

WANDERING SWORDSMAN

VENGEANCE

KING EAGLE

*wandering swordsman is so-so movie I am not sure would even lot better choreography made it overall to be considered great.All others are fine for me.

SPECIFICALLY DONE BY LIU CHIA-LIANG

------------------------------------

5 SHAOLIN MASTERS

DISCIPLES OF SHAOLIN

5 shaolin masters is masterpiece in all areas.acting,sets,fighting,even music.

fights in disciples are good,but nothing spectacular.Power of movie is in characters particularly fu shengs which is not too far from one bruce played in big boss.

Good choreography do not make great movie,legendary weapons is prime example,it`s better if balanced with interesting plot.Liu Chia Liang of course made it with at least 8 diagram,shaolin mantis(he really got chiang perform well),heroes of the east,36th chamber.Their approach is different,Liu did not seem to like violence so much but cc was opposite.it`s not fair to say one is better than another but what suits you most,go for it then...I am pretty sure all in this forum agree 5 element ninjas is enjoyable at very least and it`s CC movie with one venom only(personally I think lo meng is not most important guy in ccs 2nd team.Kuo Chui,Chiang Sheng and Lu Feng are because most end fights are between them and they have greatest skills with weapons and tricky aerial moves).And of course it helped cc had Yu Tai Ping,Chu Ker and Wang Li as supporting actors their skills I dare to say is better at least onscreen fighting than wong yus,mai te lo,hsaio ho(great acrobat) or other liu chia liang regulars.Liu Chia Liangs movies are maybe more easily to approach by mainstream people.If had to choose which one to show my friend who is not into martial arts cinema heroes of the east or heroes two,would go for heroes immediately.very likely novice would like more film which compares styles of 2 different countries than hung si kwan delivering tiger claw to manchu throat.If I do not remember wrong,heroes was big hit in japan too and japs liked thing their men are not really baddies in movie just misunderstanding.

[falkor]

5 shaolin masters is masterpiece in all areas.acting,sets,fighting,even music.

I'm not really a major fan of this film to be honest, and would give it an average 3/5, though I do like the music.

[shaolin drunkard]

I'm not really a major fan of this film to be honest, and would give it an average 3/5, though I do like the music.

it`s movie I have watched maybe 30 times.same playtime have gotten only shaolin temple(cc`s) and snake in the eagles shadow.For some reason highly acclaimed Heroes Two did not appeal fully for me,for that I would give 3/5.

[venoms5]

I'm not really a major fan of this film to be honest, and would give it an average 3/5, though I do like the music.

I've never thought a great deal about this one, either. I can understand why people seem to like it because it's mostly all action and not much else. DISCIPLES OF SHAOLIN is far superior to this movie in every way, IMO. For his Shaolin films that deal with the arts of the temple as the focus, SHAOLIN MARTIAL ARTS is the best for me.

[oldeschool17]

I've never thought a great deal about this one, either. I can understand why people seem to like it because it's mostly all action and not much else. DISCIPLES OF SHAOLIN is far superior to this movie in every way, IMO. For his Shaolin films that deal with the arts of the temple as the focus, SHAOLIN MARTIAL ARTS is the best for me.

Ditto. I thought 5 Shaolin Masters had a glorified "indie" feel to it. I was bored to tears with this one. Disciples of Shaolin and Shaolin Temple are miles better in my opinion.

[shaolin drunkard]

surprising.for me it`s perfect movie.moment I maybe like most is at the end when shaolin fighters look at dead mantis fist fighter and then see blood in his fingers.

[falkor]

Here's how I would rank some of LKL's Shaolin films:

1) Clan of the White Lotus (1980)

2) The 8 Diagram Pole Fighter (1984)

3) The 36th Chamber of Shaolin (1978)

4) Shaolin Martial Arts (1974)

5) Executioners from Shaolin (1977)

6) Return to the 36th Chamber (1980)

7) Heroes Two (1974)

8) Five Shaolin Masters (1974)

9) Men from the Monastery (1974)

Obviously, not many people are going to agree with me about Clan of the White Lotus being ahead of 8 diagram and 36th chamber, but I feel its more action packed and is rather popular with me and my friends even though I've watched 8 diagram many more times.

[falkor]

One of the best things about Lotus that blew me away was the backgrounds and atmosphere:

Likewise, I rate Shaolin Intruders ahead of diagram and chamber for similar reason (mainly more action packed).

[shaolin drunkard]

"you must learn embroidery kung fu to counter fists of the white lotus".great movie I like it more than executioners from shaolin.I have seen only dub version from dutch warner vhs tape it`s time to pick ivl one.

[falkor]

"you must learn embroidery kung fu to counter fists of the white lotus".great movie I like it more than executioners from shaolin.I have seen only dub version from dutch warner vhs tape it`s time to pick ivl one.

Ideally, you need to trade for one that is audio dubbed, unless there is an official release with the English audio track.

[FrankBolte]

as for the best shaolin films my list goes like that

8 diagram pole fighter - 5/5

36th chamber - 5/5

hung boxing kid (its actually not really a shaolin film) 5/5

shaolin martial arts 4/5

shaolin temple 4/5

return to 36th chamber 4/5

5 shaolin masters 3.5/5

executioner from shaolin 3.5/5

heroes 2 3.5/5

shaolin avengers/men from the monastry 3/5

[Kwok Choi]

Falkor you really dig " shapes " I see what you mean,entertainment value-wise regarding Fists Of The White Lotus & 8 Diagram Pole Fighters though the latter oozes class in all respects.8 Diagram is so well planned that even the dialogue is choreographed

[shaolin drunkard]

I just came into conclusion all LKL`s SB films excluding Shaolin Mantis(which is perfect) which do not have Gordon Liu as lead star suck more or less.

[FrankBolte]

i gotta say all my favie LKL movies are with Gordon Liu but films like

mad monkey kung fu

my young auntie

executioner from shaolin

the lady is the boss

spritual boxer

legendary weapons..

dont suck ! They might be not top material but they still above average...