Why Old School is better than Modern!

[falkor]

Please post your reasons why you think none of the martial arts movies to come out of Hong Kong in the last 10 years can match Old School KF classics such as 7 Grandmasters or The Victim.

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...unless you disagree!

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[Way of the Dragon]

* No annoying use of CGI

* Well developed story-lines

* Great costumes and characters

* Well Cherographed fights

* Skilled fighters, the use of modern techniques means you dont have to be (CGI, wire work)

* Entertaining and creative

[falkor]

* No annoying use of CGI

Not all new films seem to have this, yet they are still crap.

* Well developed story-lines

Hmmm... sometimes true (moderns sometimes have good storylines), but maybe not defining.

* Great costumes and characters

Getting there I think... Ask yourself: when is it appropriate to dress differently to how today's society expects you to dress? And when is it appropriate to play a Silver Fox character?

* Well Cherographed fights

Spot on, but can you elaborate?

* Skilled fighters, the use of modern techniques means you dont have to be (CGI, wire work)

I don't know about that... Bloodfist and US films seem to always star Kickboxing champions, yet they turn out crap for the most part. Not all modern day films used wire work.

* Entertaining and creative

Obviously.

Take a fight sequence from The Forbidden Kingdom with Jet Li that doesn't use CGI/wire work. Why is it that these fight scenes just do not compare to Old School? It's 2008 for Christ sakes, and proper KFs were made 30 years ago, so why can't they make 'em as good now!?!?!?!?! Its truly baffling...

[peringaten]

The scene the old school actors came out of was different, the old school film companies/industry massively populated by opera school fellows particularly. Nowadays fame is more about looking pretty; people are more likely from slick pop chart groomed backgrounds rather than gruelling kung and flip training ones. Don't think they have the right schools anymore.

[SamuraiDana]

The scene the old school actors came out of was different, the old school film companies/industry massively populated by opera school fellows particularly. Nowadays fame is more about looking pretty; people are more likely from slick pop chart groomed backgrounds rather than gruelling kung and flip training ones. Don't think they have the right schools anymore.

That pretty much nails it. You don't have people with heavy martial arts backgrounds being groomed by the studios today the way Shaw and Golden Harvest (and a few other companies as well) used to in the 70s. So there's quite a different sensibility at work. I mean, the Yuen clan keeps working but they've all gotta be in their 50s and 60s now. Have they groomed any successors? I doubt it. I think there's only just enough work for them.

Reminds me of how when westerns were being produced by the hundreds in old Hollywood in the 1930s-50s and the crews on these films were filled with former cowboys and rodeo riders, guys who knew how to handle horses, wagons, and related equipment and brought the actual sensibility of the west to the work. Once those guys died off, you couldn't replace 'em. And production of westerns gradually dropped off, to the point where if we get one a year, that's a lot.

[ironfistedmonk]

I'd also add it was down to the dedication and hard work these guys put in back in the day, nowadays the actors are not willing to take the knocks like in the 70's. Insurance companies also won't let too many risks be taken for fear of injuring the actors and disrupting the filming schedule.

Why I prefer old skool to new stuff would mainly be the longer takes, no quick edits, wider shots so you can see the actors skills in full flow instead of the close up shaky cam favoured today and the use of shapes which you just don't see today.

[gravedigger666]

* Well developed story-lines

yeah,student avengers death of master.

[falkor]

I don't think you guys have quite hit the nail on the head yet, but yeah I agree, there is now a lack of the acrobatic element.

[The Amazing Psycho Per]

Vey interesting question...

First I don't think I hate moderns as much as you. There are some good ones. There was also alot of crap back in the oldschool days, they just did a hell of a lot more kung fu movies, so there were more good ones. But ultimately, I think Panna Rittikrai and Donnie Yen are doing stuff as good, choreography wise, as back in the days.

One of the problem nowadays is the lack of kung fu stars. The guys back then were trained under extreme conditions and therefore, became skilled and solid martial artists. Nobody is trained like that today. You think Nicolas Tse would survive one day of training in the peking opera school back in the days?

Also, in the old school days, people involved in the different projects, did it with a love for the genre that doesn't seems to exist as much today. Old school flix have a soul into them, whereas today seems like more fluff. So of course, the choreo was much more inventive and intricate, since the fights took the most of the shooting time. Now, they try to rival with hollywood blockbusters, so they use cheap editing trick and close up to cover up the lack of exictement in the choreography. Everything is going fast to make you thing it's exciting, when in fact, not much is going on... They tend forget that one of the most important aspects of a martial arts flick is... the martial arts.

Finally, the situation in Hong Kong has changed, of course, with the retrocession of Hong Kong to China in 1997, things are more bleak then they were. Kung Fu movies used to be festive, they just don't seem to fit as well now in this darker Hong Kong...

But I think things are picking up right now... With the ressurgence of other nations like Indonnesia, Malaysia, Chile and of course Thailand on the martial arts movie scene, things looks bright for the future of kung fu flicks.

On a final note, one cannot put aside the nostalgia factor alot of you guys have for old school flicks... Just like does who clame the only good rock ever made was in the 60s and 70s...

[Drunken Monk]

I'm not quite sure as to why oldies are better than newer flicks but I think it has something to do with the nostalgia associated with the older movies.

A lot of the time, modern movies do have excellent fights. Well, some of the time but the old movies didn't divert too much from a simple formula. Older flicks centered around the action. These days, movies like "Flashpoint" and its ilk don't revolve around the fights but focus on other, dramatic points of interest.

60's, 70's and even 80's kung fu cinema may have sometimes tried to lean on things other than the action but it always came back to the fantastic fights.

Put simply? Newer kung fu movies try too hard.

Now, newer Thai movies are trying to bring back the focus on action but lack the variety. Older movies had styles upon styles and many of them didn't feel like gimmicks. Newer movies introduce other fighting elements (Capoeira (sp?), break dancing etc.) and fail because it's all pretty much the same.

I hope Donnie Yen and Yuen Woo Ping will slowly bring back the simplistic yet action filled aspect of kung fu movies.

Older movies also had the romance, the drama, the locations, the costumes, the thrills, the violence etc. but all managed to bundle it with fantastic fights.

[The Dragon]

Old school is better because it's where history begins.... The groundbreaking path that sets forth the direction in which everything else flows. To remember where it began, when you had nothing else to draw from, and the newness factor. Then what happens is the growth is slowed and the interest wans, and soon you see a watered down product, and very seldom something that catches the fancy.

That above and the fact that the old school artists dedicated themselves exclusively to this form of creative arts, literally sacrificing life and limb for quality/creativity. :quiet:

[Tosh]

Variety - take the 70's and 80's, you have Wuxia, Bashers, Clan, Fantasy, Shapes, Chuckle Fu(as Teako states it), High Kickers, then just pure exploitation, something different for everone, and a lot of this wasn't only coming outta Hong Kong.

Now you have cream puff pop stars and shiny golden armor, the people with the talent are so old they were in the classics.

[Killer Meteor]

I think the differance is that many of the 70s films were about fighting: feudal times, people who lived their lives to martial codes and ways of life

Now its more common to see the martial arts as windowdressing, propping up comedy, sci-fi, war or otherwise.

[edher_M.A.]

Besides all the things that all you have mention. I think its also the fact that in the 70's and 80's the martial arts as a whole was a trend, they were at the peak of there popularity around the world. There was a lot Martial Arts Federations growing up, we saw the first televised point karate, full contact, kickboxing matches that gave us the sports stars like Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, etc... We had the TV show Kung Fu, the Hong Kong stars were at there best (Jackie, Sammo, Yuen's, etc..) A ton of Martial arts magazines were comming out. I mean, there was a lot going on the in the martial arts in Asia, America and Europe.

[northern b]

I'd also add it was down to the dedication and hard work these guys put in back in the day, nowadays the actors are not willing to take the knocks like in the 70's. Insurance companies also won't let too many risks be taken for fear of injuring the actors and disrupting the filming schedule.

Why I prefer old skool to new stuff would mainly be the longer takes, no quick edits, wider shots so you can see the actors skills in full flow instead of the close up shaky cam favoured today and the use of shapes which you just don't see today.

Agree

There are a few connecting factors

The old skoolers worked harder and the fight choreographers were more demanding- 10-15+ movements in a take done at speed is very hard to do thats why films like the victim (Beardy said it was his hardest film -Sammo was the action director!) and the loot have stood the test of time. Making good screen fights is very difficult!

Compare that to 2-3 movements cut, quick edits of a lot of modern day films and it means that the fight are more to do with the skill of the editor than the skill of the actor!

Opera school training was tantamount to torture! However the grounding it gave those actors speaks for itself and has influenced action films across the world

As for Why Martial artists like Don Wilson, Joe Lewis et al havent made great movies is probably due in part to the action directors they worked with who (even with all their budgets and technology) were still light years behind the likes of the Yuen Clan.

It would have been interesting to see if they could have worked successfully with good action directors. That said being a good martial artist does not mean you will be a good screen fighter (Carter Wong is an example) where as Beardy who was not a martial artist handles choreography superbly and looks authentic.

After Shaolin Temple , South Shaolin Master etc I would have thought more recently made Kung Fu films with old school feel would have come out of China....

[AlbertV]

I know filmmakers today tend to use the modern technology to see how it will impact in films. As much I respect some fight choreographers and all, the use of over-wiring and CGI to enhance action is pretty cruddy. The actual hand-to-hand combat work of old is still some of the best to enjoy and I would love to see something in the vein of classic Sammo Hung action or old school Lau Kar-Keung action again...Hell, if I could direct, I'd love to use Chang Cheh's style of editing action scenes as well.

[oldeschool17]

You want a reason why? Wilson Tong will tell you why(read left to right, top to bottom):

[Morgoth Bauglir]

You can't question that a guy like Wilson Tong knows what he's talking about when it comes to footwork. Guy was another level. Him, Phillip Ko, Alan Hsu... So many great kf actors I can list from the oldschool movies, but so few from the newschool in comparison. There's a lot of good movies made from 1986 and after, but it doesn't come close to matching the quality and quantity of the older movies. I must say that I had a great time reading through this thread. Nice to see so much love and respect given to the older movies

[ben]

It is an interesting question. The old films just have a timeless quality to them. The actors are much more convincing in their roles, I don't know. Everything is too polished now.

[falkor]

What year do you think this Indonesian film was made?

Download clip...

[thundered mantis]

1983 (just making a blind guess :lol )

For me classic is better because the animal styles and intrincate "shapey" techniques are much more aesthetically attractive than the rather straight modern techniques, being them kickboxing, tae kwon do, muay thai or grappling-MMA oriented.

The "shapey" techniques allow much more information and communication in the fights, the story of the confrontation you see is much more richer. They allow longer exchanges, also, increasing the posibilities of the fights. They are much more bound to surprise the audience with the unexpected disposition of the body for a block, a punch, an stance, etc. They are more graceful and allow superior fluidity. As I said, aesthetically superior.

Plus those techniques are alien to western traditions, so they have a sort of misticysm, mysteriousness aura for us, they connect with a weltanschaaung, a way to see the world which is not the one of the western tradition. That magic element is not present in modern choreo, which focuses more on effectivness.

But that kind of old school choreo can´t be done in modern assets. The suspension of disbelief or whatever is called works well on period pieces. You need the taverns, the palaces, the huts, the countryside landscapes, the old clothing, etc to effectivly submerge in the "tiger/crane/phoenix eye fist" stuff. if you see it on modern piece it will look ridiculous. And I also think we can´t really go back the route of the correct period pieces. Genre´s been too contaminated (industry changes, security, mentality changes, wireCGIfuness, videoclip formal influences, etc.). Normal people only swallows period pieces if they sorta try to be like big epics or trascendental stories about significant people, ala Hero, Crouching Tiger or Fearless. But the context where the best action flourish are the simple, eternal common people revenge/superation stories, the comedies rooted on the traditional culture, etc. And that is lost forever. Globalization and progress killed that cultural humus.

That´s why old school is better than modern.

[falkor]

1983 (just making a blind guess ol )

1991

[thundered mantis]

Oh boy that caught me totally off guard

[falkor]

It just shows that the Indonesians were still capable of making old school in the 90s where Hong Kong had completely changed style. I think HK are still capable, but directors choose to not follow traditional techniques.

[peringaten]

It just shows that the Indonesians were still capable of making old school in the 90s where Hong Kong had completely changed style. I think HK are still capable, but directors choose to not follow traditional techniques.

Don't think I'd call that so much "capable of making oldschool in the '90s" as just having no budget. Give me Scorpion King, Angry Ranger, Op Condor, etc. anyday from that period. Chang Cheh's '90s flicks looked oldschool like that too, but not a patch on his former stuff; low budget & tired. We just need people to make good flicks that honour the martials properly again. The best stuff takes what it needs from precedents and revolutionises all into something new, hence why the original booms were so incendiary, they were minting new techniques and standards, with much copying of those that worked, to exhaustion, through the oldschool and onwards. Ok '90s etc. reinvention wasn't so great in oldschool martial purists eyes, maybe the industry workers were too wrapped up in the new reinventions to the detriment in part of that which was so fundamental before. Industry workers had already lived through/ingested the previous then enough not to keep combing over it. Someone will reinvent the genre for the better again in time. The thai folks are doing good stuff, now if only they could make something with all elements as badass as the action, not just the action itself, dig.

The old is so accessible, surely some will go back and take what worked, to mix with their new perception. Maybe not. A good film's a good film regardless its era though. Folk fighting hasn't been fully plumbed yet. Rambling, somewhat high.