Sonny Chiba -- seriously, what gives?

[kungfusamurai]

And yes, I really DO enjoy the different choreography/cinematography, but only as far as THE STREET FIGHTER. The long(er) takes (than HK films, that is), more static shots (not as much dollying and zooms as HK), sharper editing (just seems to have more "punch" to accentuate the brutality of Chiba's karate) all succinctly enforce the more staccato and exacting nature of karate. BUT I just didn't feel these aforementioned aesthetic details gelled anywhere near as well in Chiba's other films as they did in THE STREET FIGHTER. In THE STREET FIGHTER, Chiba is given such a pleasingly wide berth to just do his thing without the needlessly complex plotting of THE EXECUTIONER or the contrived, formulaic plotting of THE KILLING MACHINE (sorry guys, I know there are a lot of fans of that film on this board -- Just my opinion), and the spasms of outrageous violence just assure its place in the grindhouse pantheon. Plus, Chiba is just so much more appealing as a nihilistic badass:D

You won't get any argument from me on the quality of the films. I think Chiba's films were purely exploitive exercises. I think that might be why he moved off of the empty-handed combat flicks by the late 70s and hasn't been back since. I wish he could have revisited the karate flick in the 80s, maybe rekindled interest in it, but he seemed more interested in swinging a sword.

I just watch his films for the fight scenes. Many I have yet to actually sit through from beginning to end. The Executioner - I must have watched that a dozen times just for the fight scenes before actually watching the whole thing. A few I enjoyed all the way through, including Killing Machine, Karate Bullfighter, Karate Warriors and Return of The Streetfighter. I can't remember if I sat through the entire Dragon Princess film (the widescreen, I couldn't watch the old fullscreen versions). My feeling about most of his karate films were that they were done in a bit of a campy angle. They weren't meant to be serious works of art. Just mindless entertainment. They certainly were a far cry from the socially relevant, well written and well acted films of the chambara genre. But that was the trend the whole Japanese film industry seemed to be going. I don't think they ever returned to the quality of the 50s/60s/early 70s, except maybe in TV series such as Kage No Gundan.

KFS

[The Dragon]

Anytime an onscreen fighter can deliver his lines, and his action with the same voracious, venomous, vivacious vitality, as only Chiba can, he's a STAR!

and Sonny Chiba, with great vehemence, is most certainly, that.

I did watch V For Vendetta.

[Chinatown Kid]

I just saw Soul of Chiba recently and thought Sonny did a great job in his fight scenes, really fast with his hands and feet but they were just to few and far between in this flick. To bad the rest of the film was really bad and Tadasha Yama****a really looked stiff in his fights. Bolo looked ridiculous in a top hat and couldn't speak because his tongue had supposedly been cut out. Sue Shinomi really looked cute in this flick, she was a babe!

[kungpowmaster]

I don't like Tarantino and Kill Bill stuff.

But I love classic era Sonny Chiba.

I have collected a bunch of his films on DVD.

The Street Fighter films, that Samurai Collection, Shogun Collection, Lethal Chiba, Action Pack, the 2 Grindhouse Double Feature Films, the Sister Street Fighter set, she's a babe!

But, Chiba is awesome, and while some of his movies are better than others, he usually delivers the action.

I believe he'd have beaten Bruce Lee in a match.

Chosen One

[Tosh]

And a nice 3's Company saxophone to send Chiba off into dreamland. XD

XD, I hated the music in this movie.

[shaolin drunkard]

I am not sure what to think of streetfighter1.Chibas character is so disgusting but there is lot action and gore in movie so I guess it`s worth seeing.Ninja wars/shoguns ninja is least are great for me.Bullet Train I hope it`s good going to watch it soon.

[prometheus126]

bullit trains decent but I have to agree that sonnys always looked the best when holding a katana rather then bare fists. watched legend of the eight samurais when I was a kid and turned me into a chambara fan, let alone a sonny/kinji fan

[bamboo spear]

He's made some bad ones, like Legend of the Eight Samurai or the time-travelling Samurai one, or even Golgo, which I didn't care for, but anyone with even a mild interest in old Japan, Samurai or Ninja should love Shogun's Ninja and Ninja Wars. The Street Fighters went downhill after the first one, but it's also a martial arts classic, as was the Oyama Trilogy and Killing Machine. Man, I wish I could go back to late 60's-early 70's Tokyo. It was such as awesome place.

[shaolin drunkard]

^fights in Streetfighters Last Revenge are so poorly done I am 99,999% sure I could make better myself.

[bamboo spear]

Yeah, I liked his duel with the "cosmic wave" guy, but apart from that, I don't remember anything about the film except from the Mexican-laser-strongman, which was laughably bad and very strange.

[The Running Man]

Japanese martial arts films are an entirely different universe next to the HK choreography. The two shouldn't even be compared as to what is better.

I beg to differ. It's like eating a gourmet meal and then eating some fast food and then being told you aren't allowed to say which one is better. Just like no one would argue that Japanese animation is better than Hong Kong animation, Hong Kong action is better than Japanese action, especially at that period in time.

I also would like to point out that tragedy that is Hiroyuki Sanda. Never looked better than he did in Ninja In The Dragon's Den and Royal Warriors. Amazing in those action scenes and he handled the demand of Hong Kong action like a pro. What a shame he only did those two Hong Kong films.

Would've been interesting to see how Sonny China would've fared in an action film in Hong Kong during his heyday.

[venoms5]

Hong Kong action is better than Japanese action, especially at that period in time.

No, that is your opinion. Anybody can prefer one over the other but to say Japanese martial arts choreography is bad is a ridiculous statement. Not to mention that it was Hong Kong that imported a lot of talent from Japan to improve their cinema.

[The Running Man]

No, that is your opinion.

I think it's quite obvious it is. And if you think it's good then that is your opinion.

It wasn't until recently that it's changed but before Japanese action was pretty damn lousy in general. This is excluding things like chambara cinema of course. And those Japanese superheros too cause it's fun.

to say Japanese martial arts choreography is bad is a ridiculous statement.

No it isn't. It's my opinion.

Not to mention that it was Hong Kong that imported a lot of talent from Japan to improve their cinema.

That was for better film equipment and the people who knew how to manage it better. That also included cinematography. But that had nothing to do with action film making.

[venoms5]

That was for better film equipment and the people who knew how to manage it better. That also included cinematography. But that had nothing to do with action film making.

It wasn't only that. It did involve the action design as well. You can't tell me that you don't see similarities in Japanese samurai pictures and the swordplay films post 1967. Not to mention the Karate-like choreography of the basher films. It wasn't until later into the 70's the HK style of choreo came into its own which I'm sure is the type you're referring to. You know, the dancing about for five minutes before anybody gets hit.

[Tosh]

No it isn't. It's my opinion.

It's also your opinion that shitty wire work from the 90's is great:l

[The Running Man]

And it's your opinion that it's shitty.

[Atherton]

I find it interesting how both Hong Kong and Japanese fight choreography has evolved over the years. There's many genres and sub-genres within each respective countries films. I personally don't get the most out of it by comparing the two countries styles against each other. Depending on what mood I am in I may tend to prefer one country over the other.

But although there may be similarities, they're like two different beasts and I think it comes down to the individual martial arts styles used in each country. Obviously Karate and Wushu are different, Samurai Sword techniques are different than Chinese Sword techniques and that's gonna be reflected in each countries respective films. Although certain Hong Kong fight/filmstyles are very detailed and very advanced. Some Japanese fight/film styles have a very different dramatic tone and rhythm that are in no way shape or form trying to convey what a Hong Kong "shapes" or wuxia film is trying to do. And vice versa of course.

I don't know. I mean me personally if I feel like a basher, I'll thrown in a basher. If I feel like a chambara, I'll throw in a chambara. Feel like shapes, I'll thrown in a shapes tape. You know what I mean? It's all there for us to appreciate and watch if we want.

[Yakuza954]

HK action IS better than Japanese action, particularly in the time period being talked about (the early 70's to now). All you have to look at is the number of martial arts films being made by each respective country to see why. While I do understand there are some rare Japanese martial arts films yet to really be seen outside of Japan, Japan's martial arts movie output was very, very, small compared to China's. With this large difference in output, it only makes sense that Japanese action choreography started to become stagnant while HK's continued to evolve.

Yes, I understand there are old Japanese movies with great action; in 1965, HK could only dream of filming a realistic fight scene like the one in Red Beard (it would still be difficult today), but Japan's choreography regressed after that while HK's moved forward. There are still other examples of great Japanese choreography made later on, like the Lone Wolf and Cub Series and Kuro-Obi, but these movies are the exception, not the rule. For every Kuro-Obi movie you have ten Machine Girls--movies with Japanese choreography that try to imitate the live action comic-book style and fail miserably. Why do you think that is? The Japanese crews simply do not have the same experience as the Chinese crews who honed their skills working on dozens of Shaw Brothers or Golden Harvest films in the 70's and 80's. They also do not come from the same beneficial Peking Opera or martial arts backgrounds. That's the main reason why Sonny Chiba was the best in Japan during his time -- he was a real martial artist who worked with his own professionally trained stunt team and specialized in doing action movies. Does that ring a bell? It's no coincidence that the best Chinese actors/choreographers -- the Jackie Chans, Yuen Woo Pings, and Lau Kar Leungs-- also worked much the same way. Chiba however, was an enigma during his time and for all their positives, his films also ran into some of the same pitfalls that have so often plagued Japanese action films, whether its the bad shaky camera angles, or subpar villains.

Chiba's choreography would reach its peak in the mid 70's, after which he would turn to primarily chambara television work. At the same time in HK, there were still a lot of great action movies about to be made. I think Hiroyuki Sanada is the best example in showing the difference in action choreography between the two countries. Sanada's two best fighting performances were in two Chinese films, not Japanese films, and those two films were the ones that used his physical abilities to its highest. His Japanese films feel subdued in comparison, instead showing off his dramatic acting abilities better than they would have been in HK. For reasons like this, Japanese martial artists like Kurata and Oshima would spend most of their careers in China, and not in Japan. After the mid 80's, Sanada would then drop his action career, became something of an teen idol, and focused instead on singing and drama/romance work. In Japan, this was acceptable as martial arts films were regularly second fiddle to other genres; martial arts only appearing as short breaks in the action during yakuza films or samurai period dramas. In HK however, martial arts films with lots of martial arts action were topping the box office and action choreography still had a platform on which to be practiced and improved upon.