Sonny Chiba -- seriously, what gives?

[ministry88]

Alright! I've had it with this guy! Just WHAT is with all the Sonny Chiba worship? Yeah I know a lot of it has to do with the Quentin Tarantino KILL BILL aftershocks, but still.

I saw THE STREET FIGHTER nearly ten years ago via the uncut New Line VHS and was blown away. I wanted to see more of that brutal, bone-crunching Chiba action. But I shied away as it seemed the general consensus was that his other martial arts films (including the STREET FIGHTER sequels) were quite pathetic compared to this film.

Boy is that true! I just finished watching THE KILLING MACHINE, THE EXECUTIONER and SHOGUN'S NINJA and I kept thinking I was watching a modern Steven Seagal film or something during the action scenes. I will allow Video Watchdog writer John Charles's critique of Chiba's KARATE BULLFIGHTER to some up my complaints, as he put it so succinctly: "Unfortunately, the various battles are almost invariably depicted via tight framing, jerky handheld camera work, and graceless editing (problems plaguing many contemporary action films), working against the kinetic charge one longs for from Chiba's pictures..."

If you ask me, Chiba's action films have NOTHING on the best Lau Kar-leung, Jackie Chan, Sammo Hung, or Chang Cheh films for sheer inventiveness, energy, imagination, and cinematic technique. It just saddens me that such an obvious, unique martial arts talent seems to be so regularly wasted in cheap, malodorous exploitation flicks.

So my question is: am I missing out on any hidden Chiba gems? I don't need them as gory and brutal as STREET FIGHTER, but just well shot and well choreographed, with an emphasis on the action. If there aren't any by Chiba, are there any other good Japanese martial arts films out there?

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Check out Soul of Chiba. Chiba looks really awesome in that movie, and there's no denying it. But, it's a crappy movie.

Killing Machine is where it's at. If you don't like that, then it's really hard for me to recommend movies to you:p

[KUNG FU BOB]

OH! Damn!

Hi.... um, I agree that there aren't any Chiba films that look like they were action choreographed by Lau Kar leung, but I wouldn't say "I kept thinking I was watching a modern Steven Seagal film or something during the action scenes." That's a little too harsh.

I absolutely love THE STREETFIGHTER. But even with that one, I still wished they would have stopped jerking the camera around, filming too tight, and all the stuff that you complained about. He is a very talented actor and an accomplished martial artist, so I want to clearly see Sonny Chiba doing his martial arts thing under optimum conditions. Basically, that NEVER happened in any of his films. I eventually came to accept this- but only after years of fruitless searching for the Holy Grail of "well-filmed Chiba fights". The best action, IMO, is in the 3 STREETFIGHTER films (Definitely worth seeing!), and THE KILLING MACHINE (I'm surprised you didn't like that one). The opening of KARATE FOR LIFE kicks major butt, and the fight scenes in SOUL OF CHIBA are nuts, but the film looks like it cost $50.00 to make. But I would say that if you hated THE KILLING MACHINE (which I think is a cool movie all-around) and THE EXECUTIONER, you just aren't going to dig his other movies that much.

BTW- I checked out your other posts... The liner notes for BOXER'S OMEN were great. Well done!

[venoms5]

Japanese martial arts films are an entirely different universe next to the HK choreography. The two shouldn't even be compared as to what is better. Chiba's character, Tsurugi from the STREET FIGHTER films isn't supposed to be graceful nor dazzle you with a dozen maneuvers before a camera edit.

Also the way the director shoots the action, (I'm talking to you Kazuhiko Yamaguchi) has little to do with how good the fights are staged although some of the complaints about "jerky camera work" and "graceless editing" have been levied at Chang Cheh by a number of people.

Tight close ups and more cuts than actual fists and feet thrown generally masks poor choreography or that the individuals cannot grasp the moves but there's enough wide shots in Chiba's movies to showcase his talents in this category. Despite the crazy camera acrobatics in the Oyama trilogy, you thought Chiba trashing the martial arts school students at the outset was badly choreographed?

If you thought the fights were poor in KILLING MACHINE, the Oyama trilogy and EXECUTIONER among others, then maybe you should give up on Chiba movies entirely as you're unlikely to enjoy anything else from JAC.

[KUNG FU BOB]

Despite the crazy camera acrobatics in the Oyama trilogy, you thought Chiba trashing the martial arts school students at the outset was badly choreographed? QUOTE]

Venoms5, I don't think he watched the Oyama trilogy. The way the post read for me, was that he was quoting John Charles' review of KARATE BEAR FIGHTER, but has only seen THE STREETFIGHTER and

[movie freak]

well then u shouldnt reely watch chiba films if u dunt like killing machine or the mas oyama films but for a karate film check out blackbelt, its effin awesome !!!!

[daisho2004]

OK now as far as Sonny Chiba's Ninja period films where he starred as Yagyu Jubie or Hattori Hanzo aka "Shadow Warriors", "Yagyu Conspiracy" you don't get better films than that with his Japanese Action Club. Excellent movies but again you can't compare HK to Japanese movies too totally different movies & styles. Kung Fu is more graceful where Karate is more Brutal and Kill Bill just brought him back into the Main stream and he looked awesome in that movie age wise. So if you want to see him at his best IMO than get his Samurai/Ninja movies. He is the Man!

[Karlos]

There's certainly nothing wrong in not liking Chiba's films, and it sounds to me like his stuff simply ain't your cup of tea - and that's cool!

I do think the problem may be that pretty much all of us are introduced to his work via The Streetfighter, and that may be the pinnacle of his career.

We go looking for more of that calibre and it simply ain't there in most of his stuff that's been released over here.

There's no denying that his type of movie is nothing like the Hong Kong/Shaws style - chalk and cheese!

[SlothStyleKungFu]

Japanese martial arts films are an entirely different universe next to the HK choreography. The two shouldn't even be compared as to what is better.....

What he said.

Stylistically, Japan approached martial action much differently, often more conventional if you will, than the intricate or downright gonzo stuff that HK, Filipino, Taiwaiese, etc cinema delivered. It is a matter of having a different stylistic sensibility and production environment.

Its also like comparing American Ninja to Chinese Super Ninjas.

[kungfusamurai]

I think most people have hit the nail on the head with the comparison between Chiba films and those of Lau Kar Leung. Well, besides the fact that they were done in completely different styles, you're comparing the work of a director, versus the work of an actor. Chiba didn't have control over the directing of his films, hence the varying styles of cinematography from film to film. I don't think it was until the late 70s when his Japan Action Club team really became solidified, that his influences could be felt in the movies. Ironically, those films, for me, were weaker and not as pleasing to watch as his earlier films, mainly because he shifted from pure karate-based action to sword play films. Not to say that I don't like japanese sword play, I just don't think the chambara films post-1975 were as well made as the ones from the late 50s through to the early 70s.

I think the best crossover action, if you're looking for HK style acrobatics and fighting, is found in the Kage No Gundan TV series, AKA Shadow Warriors, where he plays Hattori Hanzo. Lots of flips and swordplay, not much of the karate stuff.

The best film that showcased his karate, via somewhat HK style choreography, is Soul of Chiba. The other films you listed, Killing Machine, The Executioner, Street Fighter, as well as Karate Warriors, Return of The Street Fighter, and Karate Bullfighter, are probably the best examples of the japanese choreography style. I think that style was based on the sword play films, where you have bursts of action where multiple opponents are taken down in one or two strokes, not the "ballet dancing" 10 minute fight scenes one sees in chinese films.

Chiba's films all are disappointing, for me, in only one way - his final opponents were always vastly inferior on screen martial artists. He shone best when he was taking down multiple opponents, but the endings always pitted him against some veteran Japanese actor with minimal or no fighting skills. Even the actor who he confronts at the end of Streetfighter, who he is pitted against in various films, looks interesting initially, but when the actual fighting begins, it's very disappointing - in almost EVERY movie.

Okay, enough ranting, I'll just let these Youtube clips speak for themselves, my favourite examples of Chiba kicking a$$:

-from Soul of Chiba

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-from Karate Warriors

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-and then here's a compilation of fights someone put together:

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KFS

[daisho2004]

See one thing I liked about S.C. was his unorthodox style of fighting it was Brutal and right to the point no messing around.

I remember reading an interview with S.C. where he had said that He & Bruce Lee were suppose to do a film together that would've been one awesome movie.

[ministry88]

Wow, I leave this thread for a day and look at all the responses! Thanks everyone!

YES, good point about the critical differences in both cinematic AND martial art styles in HK/Japanese films. I've actually known this fact for awhile but neglected to mention it in my op. I actually learned this when watching THE STREET FIGHTER with my friend years and years ago. He was just starting to take Kyokushin and was excited that Chiba WAS the real thing and pointed out to me how very different Japanese karate is to Kung Fu (basically, Karate is all about brutal efficiency and killing blows, whereas Kung Fu is more balletic and informed by its Peking Opera influence).

And yes, I really DO enjoy the different choreography/cinematography, but only as far as THE STREET FIGHTER. The long(er) takes (than HK films, that is), more static shots (not as much dollying and zooms as HK), sharper editing (just seems to have more "punch" to accentuate the brutality of Chiba's karate) all succinctly enforce the more staccato and exacting nature of karate. BUT I just didn't feel these aforementioned aesthetic details gelled anywhere near as well in Chiba's other films as they did in THE STREET FIGHTER. In THE STREET FIGHTER, Chiba is given such a pleasingly wide berth to just do his thing without the needlessly complex plotting of THE EXECUTIONER or the contrived, formulaic plotting of THE KILLING MACHINE (sorry guys, I know there are a lot of fans of that film on this board -- Just my opinion), and the spasms of outrageous violence just assure its place in the grindhouse pantheon. Plus, Chiba is just so much more appealing as a nihilistic badass:D

**To Kung Fu Bob: Hey, thanks for the compliments on my liners for BOXER'S OMEN! Always appreciated. And thanks for the recommendation of KURO-OBI, I'll try to track that one down! And you're also right that I haven't seen the OYAMA trilogy, I was just using Charles's quote to sum up my complaints about the Chiba films I've seen so far.

[Alex]

ministry88, if you're still willing to give Chiba a chance check out Karate Warriors (karate), Samurai Reincanation (mostly swordplay) or Shogun's Shadow (a mix of japanese swordplay and ninja action with Chinese kung-fu elements) - some of the staging of the action in these may be a bit more to your taste

[daisho2004]

Alex: "Samurai Reincarnation" & "Shogun's Shadow" are 2 of my favorite Chiba movies, more so "Samurai Reincarnation" because he has the Sword fight with WAKAYAMA,Tomisaburo who is the Man!

[Chinatown Kid]

I like and appreciate the direct, brutal and more simpler nature to Chiba's style of Japanese screen fighting and think it's a nice contrast to the HK/Chinese style. It's nice to have a variety to spice things up. I liked Chiba in Karate Warriors and the Mas Oyama trilogy(I think this trilogy shows off Chiba's best Karate technique), I have Soul of Chiba coming in a trade and I'm looking forward to seeing it.

[Alex]

Alex: "Samurai Reincarnation" & "Shogun's Shadow" are 2 of my favorite Chiba movies, more so "Samurai Reincarnation" because he has the Sword fight with WAKAYAMA,Tomisaburo who is the Man!

agreed fully, that fight is one of my favorite moments in all of the martial arts movies i own

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

I like and appreciate the direct, brutal and more simpler nature to Chiba's style of Japanese screen fighting and think it's a nice contrast to the HK/Chinese style. It's nice to have a variety to spice things up.

I totally agree.....! I also think that many of the Japanese movies had a coolness to them, that many of the HK movies didn't! Now, don't get me wrong, im all about the HK style. But after watching Dean Shek stroking his hairy mole for the ten thousanth time, or Meng Hoi falling in horse manure, over and over again, I think it is refreshing to watch something as cool looking as this.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua-rB3KXcms

[jiujitsu77]

sonny chiba is seriously a bad mofo. i know i am simply making a statement made by many already before me, but i feel if i did not make one personally i would'nt be doing my job as an ma movie enthusiasterism.

in real life the man can handle his own. that is alot more that can be said for most screen fighters.

[daisho2004]

Chiba really shines when playing samurai roles

and with a Sword in his hands. His probably the best cinema swordsfighter

of all time, right up there with Wakayama, Tomisburo. And to see him in action,

check out the new video clips for YAGYU ABARE TABI and SHADOW

WARRIORS IV TV-series over at www.kurotokagi.com that will show some of his incredible skills.

[5 Element Boxer]

Kurata > Chiba, in my humble opinion. I like some of Chiba's work. He is definitely a gifted actor (terrific in the Shadow Warriors series & Kage no Gundan: Hattori Hanzo movie) and martial artist, though.

[oldeschool17]

SHOGUN'S NINJA

Thats the problem right there. Ive been semi-lynched for saying this but i thought that was a garbage film. Shogun's Ninja is not a good indicator of Chiba's greatness.

[daisho2004]

Shogun's Ninja: End Fight Scene

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMIofbpEUGc

[daisho2004]

Now if you want to show Sonny Chiba's greatness you have to watch the "Yagyu Conspiracy" TV Series.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsEBF4uJRbQ

[oldeschool17]

Shogun's Ninja: End Fight Scene

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMIofbpEUGc

And a nice 3's Company saxophone to send Chiba off into dreamland. XD

*agreed on Yagyu Conspiracy. Also agree with Shadow Warrirors/Kage No Gundan

[venoms5]

Chiba isn't even the main star of SHOGUN'S NINJA. TIME SLIP has some choice Chiba action including an impressive horse stunt where he picks up a bow and arrow separately while riding a horse to take out some ninjas. There's also a brief fight with Chiba against Hiroyuki Sanada. Mostly gun action from Chiba, though. I can't think of any movie where the man didn't look impressive regardless of the film itself or how much screen time he has.