Original Language Debate

[David Rees]

Without getting too flamed up, what is the original language discussion that is always mentioned on dvd releases on classic older films.

For instance Legendary Weapons Of China, some people say its Cantonese, but surely the film was shot silent, it was then dubbed in Cantonese and Mandarin for different regions and normally not using the original actors voice.

Therefore both Cantonese and Mandarin are the original language as it was released in HK in Cantonese and say Taiwan in Mandarin.

The language spoken onset will probably be a mixture of both so is really irrelevant.

So saying Legendary Weapons should be Cantonese is wrong?

Just to add fuel to the fire i dont include English dubs because they dont match the lips movements at all and make the films sound cheap and nasty!

Let the debate begin....

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[Alex]

I really don't understand why people get so flamed up over this. I can't speak either Mandarin or Cantonese anyway, watching the subtitles distracts from paying specific attention the lip movements, and 9/10 times I'm not watching these movies for displays of acting prowess. As long as the movie print is in good shape and uncut, they could be speaking Swahili for all I care.

[SamuraiDana]

I want the default language to be whatever the actors were saying their lines in when they filmed it. When Sammo Hung and his buddies were shooting their old-school kung fu movies, I'm assuming they were all speaking Cantonese on the set, so I want that to be the audio. I'm assuming the same of Lau Kar Leung's movies at Shaw, filled as they were with his crew and his family and his favorite actors. I'm not going to assume it was a mix of Mandarin and Cantonese until someone who was actually there goes on record saying that both were spoken on the set. I'm not saying that that didn't happen, only that I've never heard of that happening. I've heard of Italian westerns with international casts where everyone spoke their own language, but not a Hong Kong movie.

For the older films, however, such as the Jimmy Wang Yu swordplay films at Shaw, I'm assuming Mandarin was spoken, so I want that to be the audio. A lot of the early Shaws were shot sync sound (i.e. recorded directly on the set and not dubbed in later) and the language is clearly Mandarin. There are some movies from that era shot sync sound at other studios (Cathay, for instance) where they're clearly speaking Cantonese. I watched a Connie Chan movie recently from the mid-1960s that was shot sync-sound in Cantonese.

In the historical epics, Mandarin fits better because I don't think the Yang Clan or the Empress Dowager or the Cold-Blooded Eagles or the 13th Prince or the monks at Shaolin were speaking Cantonese. And in the made-in-Taiwan indie kung fu films, I'm assuming Mandarin was spoken on-set.

I have seen kung fu films that should have had Cantonese soundtracks (because of the actors involved) that were dubbed in Mandarin and the Mandarin dubbing was as stiff and colorless as most English dubbing.

[Killer Meteor]

I tend to prefer the option of both dialects on a DVD, because I often find HK Chinese dubbing to be pretty wobbly. For example, Snake In The Eagle's Shadow is Cantonese, but I prefer it in Mandarin

Usually, determining the correct language is easy. All the Bruce Lee films, for example. are Mandarin. All of Golden Harvest's pictures, from 1978 onwards, are Cantonese. Its Shaws where it gets confusing, as they continued to make films in both dialects (most of Chang Cheh's films never saw a Cantonese dub)

[Guest WuxiaFan]

Agree with SamuaiDana. I want to hear their voice and the language they were speaking. I don't like Mandarin or Cantonese dubs, but its preferrable over a bad English dub. I do like the classic English dubs with the same 4-5 guys that always did them. I wish Bruce Lee's films were not dubbed. I just saw Enter the Dragon on the big screen and hearing Bruce's voice in that film is so much better than the dubbed voices in his first 4 films.

[Guest Markgway]

For instance Legendary Weapons Of China, some people say its Cantonese, but surely the film was shot silent, it was then dubbed in Cantonese and Mandarin for different regions and normally not using the original actors voice. Therefore both Cantonese and Mandarin are the original language as it was released in HK in Cantonese and say Taiwan in Mandarin.

Then it was released in the USA in English - does that make English its original language too? And sometimes the actors did dub their own voices. Especially the character actors.

The language spoken onset will probably be a mixture of both so is really irrelevant.

The chances of EVERY single actor in a HK movie speaking the same language is about 0%. However, there is always an intended language, and any actor who can speak said language will do so. The only reason Bruce Lee didn't speak Mandarin in his films was because he couldn't. The language of cinema changed in the decade since he left. Just because two languages are produced doesn't mean both are equally valid. For instance a Mandarin soundtrack will always be created for the Taiwanese/Mainland markets even if the film is Cantonese. That's just how Chinese films work.

So saying Legendary Weapons should be Cantonese is wrong?

No. It would be correct.

Just to add fuel to the fire i dont include English dubs because they dont match the lips movements at all and make the films sound cheap and nasty!

I don't like English dubs either, but quite often the sync on original language tracks can be off too, though obviously not as bad.

[Guest Markgway]

I want the default language to be whatever the actors were saying their lines in when they filmed it. When Sammo Hung and his buddies were shooting their old-school kung fu movies, I'm assuming they were all speaking Cantonese on the set, so I want that to be the audio.

If you're talking about movies Sammo directed, then yes, they were all Cantonese. Most of the actors in them could speak Mandarin, it was merely that Cantonese had become popular at the time Sammo switched to direction. Had he begun as a director 2 years before then his early films would've been Mandarin like all the rest.

I'm assuming the same of Lau Kar Leung's movies at Shaw, filled as they were with his crew and his family and his favorite actors. I'm not going to assume it was a mix of Mandarin and Cantonese until someone who was actually there goes on record saying that both were spoken on the set. I'm not saying that that didn't happen, only that I've never heard of that happening. I've heard of Italian westerns with international casts where everyone spoke their own language, but not a Hong Kong movie.

Lau's movies up until (and including) Heroes of the East were Mandarin. Shaws didn't shoot Cantonese Martial arts movies until 1979. As said previously, most of the actors could speak Mandarin or Cantonese, so there was no problem, and anyone who couldn't would stick with their own language. Speaking Mandarin was a big advantage in the industry between 65-78. Jackie Chan's first Cantonese movie was Snake in the Eagle's Shadow. All of his movies for Lo Wei were Mandarin, except Fearless Hyena.

For the older films, however, such as the Jimmy Wang Yu swordplay films at Shaw, I'm assuming Mandarin was spoken, so I want that to be the audio.

Yes. In fact I can't think of a single Wang Yu old school movie he made that wasn't Mandarin.

A lot of the early Shaws were shot sync sound (i.e. recorded directly on the set and not dubbed in later) and the language is clearly Mandarin. There are some movies from that era shot sync sound at other studios (Cathay, for instance) where they're clearly speaking Cantonese. I watched a Connie Chan movie recently from the mid-1960s that was shot sync-sound in Cantonese.

It's a pity they gave up on sync-sound.

In the historical epics, Mandarin fits better because I don't think the Yang Clan or the Empress Dowager or the Cold-Blooded Eagles or the 13th Prince or the monks at Shaolin were speaking Cantonese.

Doesn't always work like that though... If anyone is unsure the best thing to do is post here and I or someone will help.

And in the made-in-Taiwan indie kung fu films, I'm assuming Mandarin was spoken on-set.

Always.

[FrankBolte]

most of the movies from LKL base on cantonese write ups and biographies.Those were famous in southern china..I have some of them.

I have a chinese biographie on Wong Fei Hung,its written in chinese characters..the old style of writing even mandarin speakers or fukkien people have difficulties to read and understand this...I live in Manila Chinatown,most chinese here are from Fukkien so thats the main dialect here,after that its mandarin..I couldnt find a single person being able to help me translating those manuals..they always say ,ah thats cantonese writing..same chinese characters but different way of usage..in HK though they can read it and understand...so when Pops shot his movies he had his own team around him and they were talking in cantonese..also the dialogues were in cantonese..and then dubbed in both dialects.So I have been told...

Most of pops movies are related to hung gar history and this history is southern chinese and therefor cantonese..

[David Rees]

"So saying Legendary Weapons should be Cantonese is wrong?" "No. It would be correct."

How?

Intersting stuff Franky, but if you watch a lot of pops films in Mandarin the lip movements seem to match most of the time.

[rederror]

I agree with SamuraiDana. I have Drunken Master on VCD and although it's Cantonese being spoken by the actors it has deen dubben into Mandarin and it annoys the hell out of me.

[Guest Markgway]

I couldnt find a single person being able to help me translating those manuals..they always say ,ah thats cantonese writing..same chinese characters but different way of usage..in HK though they can read it and understand...

You mean the difference between traditional and simplified Chinese? I thought there was only two ways of writing Chinese as opposed to the spoken equivilent.

so when Pops shot his movies he had his own team around him and they were talking in cantonese..also the dialogues were in cantonese..and then dubbed in both dialects.So I have been told...

Who told you? Yes, they undoubtedly spoke Cantonese behind the scenes. But on camera anyone who could speak Mandarin would do so, if that was the intended release language. From 1979 onward Lau's films were all Cantonese (except the Mainland production: Martial Arts of Shaolin) so it wasn't an issue.

Most of pops movies are related to hung gar history and this history is southern chinese and therefor cantonese..

That's irrelevant. The Pink Panther is set in France (and most of its characters supposedly French) should it therefore be watched in French? Think about it.

[Guest Markgway]

"So saying Legendary Weapons should be Cantonese is wrong?" "No. It would be correct."

How?

How? Because it was intended to be shown in Cantonese and the actors (majority of them at any rate) spoke Cantonese to the camera. What else can I say?

[Jstn]

I really don't understand why people get so flamed up over this. I can't speak either Mandarin or Cantonese anyway, watching the subtitles distracts from paying specific attention the lip movements, and 9/10 times I'm not watching these movies for displays of acting prowess. As long as the movie print is in good shape and uncut, they could be speaking Swahili for all I care.

great point.....for me, the most important thing is the quality of choreography

[Killer Meteor]

great point.....for me, the most important thing is the quality of choreography

Its a poor point I think. If we really care about these films, a little think like the correct damn language should be something we at least take note of. Otherwise, DVD distributors will continue to mess up

[FrankBolte]

You mean the difference between traditional and simplified Chinese? I thought there was only two ways of writing Chinese as opposed to the spoken equivilent.

.

Well the characters are the same,old traditional for example ,but the way of telling is different..if you give my original chinese book to a mandarin speaker he will tellyou "oh this is cantonese" he can recognise that by the way it was written..he knows all the characters but when written by a cantonese he needs to know how to speak cantonese...

anyway I was thinking ,those shaolin films also base on those old writings and they were clearly shot in mandarin so the book example isnt that good...

That's irrelevant. The Pink Panther is set in France (and most of its characters supposedly French) should it therefore be watched in French? Think about it

dont understand this comparison...

what I meant is so they base on those cantonese writings..some names of techniques are really southern..maybe they dont even have mandarin names for that...hard to explain

Who told you?

Im very close to the source...anyway I might got that mixed up since its been a while when I asked about those things...all I know is and that also goes for the indie Lau films they were shot in cantonese...however at sb studios from 1979 onwards may be right...

anyway,I prefer my movies in cantonese....mandarin for the mainland or taiwan films or even wuxia (although those I dont watch a lot)

[Guest Markgway]

Well the characters are the same,old traditional for example ,but the way of telling is different..if you give my original chinese book to a mandarin speaker he will tellyou "oh this is cantonese" he can recognise that by the way it was written..he knows all the characters but when written by a cantonese he needs to know how to speak cantonese...

That's interesting. So the characters would be the same but, say, in a different order? Or phrased differently?

anyway I was thinking ,those shaolin films also base on those old writings and they were clearly shot in mandarin so the book example isnt that good...

Yeah, I'd forget about the story origins.

dont understand this comparison...

what I meant is so they base on those cantonese writings..some names of techniques are really southern..maybe they dont even have mandarin names for that...hard to explain

I took what you meant to be that a film about Cantonese characters should be in Cantonese. That right? I was saying would the same not apply if the characters were French? The language that the studios chose had little or nothing to do with the origin of the stories or where they were set.

Im very close to the source...anyway I might got that mixed up since its been a while when I asked about those things...all I know is and that also goes for the indie Lau films they were shot in cantonese...however at sb studios from 1979 onwards may be right...

All Lau's indie films were Cantonese too. Only the Shaws from 1975-1978 were Mandarin and 1986's Martial Arts of Shaolin (a non-HK film).

anyway,I prefer my movies in cantonese....mandarin for the mainland or taiwan films or even wuxia (although those I dont watch a lot)

Preference is a different matter. I have none. I just prefer the original spoken/intended language whatever that may be.

[David Rees]

"Because it was intended to be shown in Cantonese and the actors (majority of them at any rate) spoke Cantonese to the camera."

If you watch the films a lot of the lip movements match Mandarin not just Cantonese.

It was intended to be shown in Cantonese in Hong Kong certainly but not everywhere else in the Far East.

I think as long as there are both languages on the disc then we can all choose which we prefer...