Why all the unnecessary undercranking?

[5 Element Boxer]

This has always bothered me. Undercranking in fight scenes. Why was it used? Did the editors actually think it was going to help the fight scenes look beter?? I don't understand.

I'm focusing mainly on The Mystery of Chess Boxing and Born Invincible here, since they were the last old skool flicks I watched. These two are among my top old skool favorites. But everytime I watch them, I can't help but think how great they would've been had all that undercranking in the fight scenes been left out. I mean, why the hell was there undercranking in there anyway?! It didn't need it! It was unnecessary in my eyes. And I can't tell you how annoying it is to me that these fine classics had to be butchered the way they were. They should've left them alone.

I'm done ranting.

If any of you feel the same way as I do about these movies, or any others that have unnecessary undercranking, please get it off your chest. It's healty.

[Mark Pollard]

My understanding is that undercranking was primarily used to save time. Most kung fu movies had to be shot quickly due to limited budgeting and resources. Action sequences took up the most shooting time and because there may have been 20 movements per shot on average it required stunt actors to memorize a lot of potentially dangerous movements. There wasn't enough time to perfect these sequences at optimal real-time speeds, like you'll see with those insane mainland Chinese wushu sparring exhibitions. So, the camera would be slowed down to maybe 20 frames per second instead of 24 to reach the speeds that action directors and audiences wanted to see.

Over time, this undercranking became a gimmick for some independent filmmakers to abuse. Sammo Hung and other filmmakers used undercranking sparingly but some went over the top and that's why the action in some low-budget kung fu movies looks absurd.

Lau Kar-leung and Jackie Chan were two exceptions. Because of their commercial successes and high standards, they were able to spend more time perfecting sequences so that undercranking wasn't necessary.

[5 Element Boxer]

Yeah. I understand what you're saying. I guess I never thought too much about that. I just assumed some editor was being an idiot and doing it on purpose or something. lol I still think our favorite classics would've been much better without it, though. And I know most of the people here agree with me.

[Yang Wu Liang]

Undercranking can look stupid and cartoony but when it's used sparingly and done right it can enhance the action IMO, same as wirework. A good example of it being used well would be in Shaolin Temple Against Lama (which I was watchin last night).

[Jstn]

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is 'undercranking'? Thank you.

[chen lung]

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is 'undercranking'? Thank you.

In a nutshell, action that's unnaturally fast - Donnie Yen was renowned for it .

Some movies are that ****, undercranking actually makes it better!

[ironfistedmonk]

Donnie Yens undercranking is insane!! I'm not too keen on undercranking but what really gets me is frame cutting, that really ruins a fight scene for me.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

The frame cutting ruined Kung Fu on Sale for me.

I don't mind undercranking too much, except in Godfrey Ho movies it can get irritating. It also bugged me a little in Mantis Fists and Tiger Claws of Shaolin.

[Endsang]

I was really disappointed when I saw that the first part of the final fight in Shaolin Mantis was heavily undercranked. Good thing they toned it down during the fight though, as it was really obvious and unnecessary.

[Jstn]

In a nutshell, action that's unnaturally fast - Donnie Yen was renowned for it .

Some movies are that ****, undercranking actually makes it better!

Thanks a lot for the info.

[5 Element Boxer]

Undercranking can look stupid and cartoony but when it's used sparingly and done right it can enhance the action IMO

i.e. 7 Grandmasters, during the fight between Jack Long and the weapons expert (Choery Yuen). That scene was done superbly (is that even a word? lol).

Donnie Yen's undercranking isn't too bad sometimes. In Legend of the Wolf, it looked really cool, in my opinion.

[quixote64]

i know a lot of people don't dig Legend of the Wolf, but i really liked it too. The one time where Donnie went too far with the undercranking was on the Fist of Fury tv show

[Jstn]

i.e. 7 Grandmasters, during the fight between Jack Long and the weapons expert (Choery Yuen). That scene was done superbly (is that even a word? lol).

Donnie Yen's undercranking isn't too bad sometimes. In Legend of the Wolf, it looked really cool, in my opinion.

I completely agree with you on the 7 Grandmasters fight - excellent fight, all around. I think 'superbly' is a word,

[lightning hopkins]

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is 'undercranking'? Thank you.

Just to further clarify, "undercranking" is a term that dates back to the days of silent movies, when camera operators manually advanced the unexposed film while shooting by literally cranking it through the camera frame by frame. Filmmakers quickly realized that by altering the speed at which the film was exposed (by cranking faster or slower), they could speed up or slow down the action captured on camera -- hence the notion of "fast" or "slow motion."

As Mark commented, since the introduction of automated equipment, films are generally shot and projected at a standard 24 frames per second (fps). Camera operators can adjust the exposure speed though, allowing them to achieve the same effects that their silent film counterparts did by over- or undercranking their cameras.

When Jackie Chan is filmed throwing a quick punch that takes about one second to hit at normal speed, that action will be captured over the course of 24 individual frames of film. Since that film is projected at the same rate (24 frames per second), the action will look identical when seen on-screen. If the cameraman changes the shooting speed to something like 48 frames per second, though, that same one second punch will instead be captured in 48 individual frames rather than 24. When the film is viewed at the usual 24fps, then, the speed of the on-screen action is halved, and that same one second punch will take two seconds to view -- that's the basis of "slow motion." Conversely, shooting at 12fps will capture that same one second punch in half as many frames, so when projected at 24fps, it'll appear lightning fast.

By subtly adjusting the shooting speed by even a few frames per second, the choreography in fight scenes can appear to be even more speedy and crisp than it might otherwise. But as others here have mentioned, the trick is frequently abused by martial arts filmmakers, giving the movies the cartoonish feel for which they're all too often lampooned by the public.

[Mark Pollard]

lightning hopkins, thanks for the great explanation of undercranking.

The technique is easily misunderstood until you can wrap your mind around the concept that "slowing" down a camera's capture rate "speeds" up the playback.

[Robotech_Master]

Of course, sometimes it's done with the strict intention of seeming cartoonish, for the purpose of slapstick humor. Some of the scenes in Fantasy Mission Force, for example.

[5 Element Boxer]

Five Fighters From Shaolin, with Mark Long, had some rediculous undercranking in it. And yet, Mr. Pollard still gave it a 5 star rating. It WAS insanely entertaining, though. The same goes for World Of Drunken Master, Mystery Of Chess Boxing and Born Invincible. But still, the undercranking wasn't needed, in my opinion.

[Drunken Monk]

The one time where Donnie went too far with the undercranking was on the Fist of Fury tv show

I rented this a few months ago and, literally, couldn't get passed the second episode. The under cranking spoiled it so much, the series was unredeemable for me.

Sammo Hung's "Blade of Fury" has some rather annoying moments of under cranking.

[5 Element Boxer]

I rented that Fist of Fury too, and was dissapointed as well. Donnie Yen should never have made it in the first place.

[peringaten]

I love a good bit of cranking. Amps that shit up when done right. Lu Chin Ku...

[falkor]

Undercranking is good, and if you don't like it then you can **** off!

[5 Element Boxer]

Undercranking is good sometimes

fixed

[Jstn]

Just to further clarify, "undercranking" is a term that dates back to the days of silent movies, when camera operators manually advanced the unexposed film while shooting by literally cranking it through the camera frame by frame. Filmmakers quickly realized that by altering the speed at which the film was exposed (by cranking faster or slower), they could speed up or slow down the action captured on camera -- hence the notion of "fast" or "slow motion."

As Mark commented, since the introduction of automated equipment, films are generally shot and projected at a standard 24 frames per second (fps). Camera operators can adjust the exposure speed though, allowing them to achieve the same effects that their silent film counterparts did by over- or undercranking their cameras.

When Jackie Chan is filmed throwing a quick punch that takes about one second to hit at normal speed, that action will be captured over the course of 24 individual frames of film. Since that film is projected at the same rate (24 frames per second), the action will look identical when seen on-screen. If the cameraman changes the shooting speed to something like 48 frames per second, though, that same one second punch will instead be captured in 48 individual frames rather than 24. When the film is viewed at the usual 24fps, then, the speed of the on-screen action is halved, and that same one second punch will take two seconds to view -- that's the basis of "slow motion." Conversely, shooting at 12fps will capture that same one second punch in half as many frames, so when projected at 24fps, it'll appear lightning fast.

By subtly adjusting the shooting speed by even a few frames per second, the choreography in fight scenes can appear to be even more speedy and crisp than it might otherwise. But as others here have mentioned, the trick is frequently abused by martial arts filmmakers, giving the movies the cartoonish feel for which they're all too often lampooned by the public.

Thank you very much for the detailed explanation

[Guest Splatnus]

Hello I'm new here this is my first post.

I'm a big fan of martial arts movies with awesome fight scenes and I'm extremely nitpicky. I don't like wire-fu and things that look silly. I'll say that my favorite fight scene is the last one in Flashpoint with Donnie Yen. Out of more recent movies anyway.

I'm extremely excited for the Indonesian The Raid coming soon.

There is ONE thing that bugs the hell out of me with fight scenes. Which is when some moves or shots are SPED UP...

WHY!? I mean yeah it's because they failed at doing it properly when they were filming, so they have to speed it up in post, I guess? But it's just so easy to see. And when they do it too much. Horrible.

Like even in the last fight in Flashpoint. There's one shot in particular that is sped up. The WHOLE shot. With Donnie Yen kinda dancing around, throwing a couple of punches. It looks fake, as if he's super charged or something.

And now in The Raid. There's 3 clips online now of fight scenes. And here they kinda springle in the extra speed here and there on certain moves. And he does it a lot I think. Like every punch and kick that they didn't do fast enough. Just go in and speed the shit up later.

And it's not the same as slowmotion. Slowmotion a few times and showcases the awesome moves they do.

The thing is, I love when they put so much effort into making these fight scenes and use people that are extremely good at both fighting and making awesome choreography. And they film it in a way that clearly shows how great fighters they are. With no fast cut, close ups etc...

BUT THEN THEY SPEED IT UP??? Whaaat, Just epic fail.

I just wanted to hear you opinion on this since this has bugged my mind for a very long time.

[Reel Power Stunts]

Welcome to the forums!

Hello I'm new here this is my first post.

WHY!? I mean yeah it's because they failed at doing it properly when they were filming, so they have to speed it up in post, I guess?

In most Hong Kong films, if the action is sped up, it's not done in post. A conscious decision is made on set to under-crank the camera. For exampe, if most films are shot at 24 frames-per-second, it's quite common to shoot bits of action at 22fps. When that's projected at 24fps, it means the action is less than 10% faster.

If one speeds up action in post, it tends to look different.

I'm not going to say I'm for or against undercranking. There are times when a subtle undercrank can make action look sharper, more aggressive, less rehearsed etc...Often times subtle undercrank isn't especially noticeable. There are also times when I think the effect can be detrimental. Some of Donnie's stuff is shot at 20fps, or 18fps. Most times, I personally think it's unnecessary as Yen is already fast and sharp. I guess a filmmaker could argue that in certain instances undercranking is a valid artistic/creative decision...but I think many fans would say it can be distracting and detrimental, especially in modern day films.

Undercranking in my opinion can make action look better, and make filming it safer, especially with stunts. For example, some of the car action in "Bourne Supremacy" was undercranked. It looks good.On the other hand, some of the sped up fighting in "Bourne Identity" looked a bit hokey to me....