Fist of Legend (DVD - Dragon Dynasty)

[oldeschool17]

I just watched the last half of DD's FoL and the full ending is there. So it's not just the same Dimension "cut" again. It's got that little tidbit.

So that's a point for the DD FoL.

But now I'm staring at the disappointing cover. Aw geez, I've chastised other people for crying about every little thing myself, but... Damn them! This is one of my favorite flippin' movies!!! They obviously wanted the cover image to look good, so they thought it might be a swell idea to lighten up some of the strong shadows on Jet's face in this image. Which, based on the lighting and "film" grain that's clear in the Dimension release cover (it uses the same photo), has been taken directly from the film (as opposed to a publicity shot). They did a servicable job until they had to redraw the corner of Jet's right eye, which is completely lost in the shadows of the original picture. They over-extended the corner, slightly enlongating it. This makes him look cock-eyed, and not as Jet as he should. Just cover up that corner of his eye when you get it, and it suddenly doesn't look like tripping on mushrooms.

Two points taken away for a vicious foul!

Yeah, I'm being a baby.

I'm totally envious that someone else got to do the cover, when I've had such deep desire and artistic inspiration to do one. And knowing I would give it my all if I had a chance to do the DVD cover for this film... In my head, my concept looks better. But that's easy to say. Who knows if I could accomplish what I imagined in reality.

I'm just full of sour grapes yo.

Um, just to end on a positive note... The film is still awesome!XD Billy Chow is the perfect "killing machine" to fight Jet in this. Their fight is out-of-sight. And Kurata? Every second he's on screen is mesmerizing! His little thing that he pulls on Chen Zhen while the younger fighter impatiently awaits the start of their duel... priceless! Jet's performance is great. Chin Siu-ho is so underrated in this film too. He turns in a wonderful dramatic, and physical performance. Yeah, really good stuff. :nerd:

The best cover is done by akita. If Xenon and Wu Tang did the collection:

[oldeschool17]

I dont see how letting fans know that a movie has some technical errors is a bad thing. Yes, the average fan will not give a flying f)ck and thats fine, but it's not fair to the fans to not be informed of any discrepancies from the other releases. Let's face it, complacency and ignorance amongst the common man is why big companies get away with putting out subpar releases. Why cant these threads exist without one group of fans insulting another set of fans?

[HAZ]

I like my Ritek DVD & don't plan on upgrading, unless Bey's commentary is amazing.

[bruiselee]

Avoid Walmarts' copies!

I went to Walmart this morning and noticed Fist of Legend was listed at $14.96 there, but it turned out that it was only 1 disc and it didn't have "2-Disc Ultimate Edition" listed on the cover (no slipcover either btw). So I swung over to Bestbuy and saw that they did have the 2-Disc version of it along with the slipcover listing it as the 2-disc version. It was $17.99 there.

[The Running Man]

HAZ,

you want to reply to my PM anytime soon?

[Guest Markgway]

See... this is why this is such a big problems. Those scenes that were cut out do a good job at showing the japanese people's doubts, insecurities, pride, etc... making this much less of a black-white issue.... I never felt FOL was strongly anti-japanese. The only 'real' japanese bad guy was Billy Chow, the main bad guy, which makes sense. In this movie you have good japanese people and also bad chinese people.

'Fist of Legend' is the PC version of 'Fist of Fury' and no better for it. What the Japanese did to the Chinese during the War was nothing short of evil on a mass scale - millions tortured, raped and murdered. Something which the Japanese still to this day refuse to acknowledge or apologize for. You don't get any of this in 'Legend', which makes the Japanese seem moderately unpleasent at worst. The filmmakers who made the 70s spate of Chinese vs Japanese movies lived through the war and their anger was palpable. Gordon Chan wasn't even born, and so it's a lot easier for him to be "balanced". Truth is 'Legend' soft pedals what really happened and is about as accurate as 'Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story' - if that. That doesn't mean it's not an enjoyable film, it is, I'm just making the counter-point to Yi's argument. The Japanese get off lightly even without the inclusion of those "Taiwanese cut" scenes.

[Guest Yi-Long]

'Fist of Legend' is the PC version of 'Fist of Fury' and no better for it. What the Japanese did to the Chinese during the War was nothing short of evil on a mass scale - millions tortured, raped and murdered. Something which the Japanese still to this day refuse to acknowledge or apologize for. You don't get any of this in 'Legend', which makes the Japanese seem moderately unpleasent at worst. The filmmakers who made the 70s spate of Chinese vs Japanese movies lived through the war and their anger was palpable. Gordon Chan wasn't even born, and so it's a lot easier for him to be "balanced". Truth is 'Legend' soft pedals what really happened and is about as accurate as 'Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story' - if that. That doesn't mean it's not an enjoyable film, it is, I'm just making the counter-point to Yi's argument. The Japanese get off lightly even without the inclusion of those "Taiwanese cut" scenes.

Nowhere did I deny the atrocoties of the japanese against the chinese. But in every war you also have 'good' men who are just following orders, so to speak.

Think of John McCain, who bombed defenseless civilians in poor villages in Vietnam, and is now running for president.

There's no denying the nazi's were f-ing evil, but there were also nazi's who tried their best whenever they could to hurt as few people as possible. Just like there were allied soldiers who went raping and pillaging in German towns.

Fist of Legend shows that the Japanese-Chinese war was a political decision, which many of the japanese didnt know properly of and didnt agree with.

FOF depicts ALL Japanese as cardboard 'evil' people, and all chinese as 'heroes'. That's just not realistic and it's not the truth.

FOL shows that war is bad, but that we cant judge people on just their nationality, or color, or whatever. It shows that most people dont care for 'war' and 'killing'.

[KUNG FU BOB]

First, Oldeschool17 shot me a pm, the we both agreed to post it here:

<Hey Bob,

Can you clear up some questions for me on this Dragon Dynasty release?

Sure

1)So it IS uncut?As you said, it is not the Dimension release(which is good thing, but it does retain the dimension english dub, which is a bad thing)

-Although I haven't done a complete side-by-side comparison (I don't have the time), it appears to be the HK version of the film. The only longer version I've seen is the Taiwanese version on the Ritek DVD. As far as I can tell, all the scenes from the Ritek version (save for a needless few seconds of soliders about to bust into the arena) are included as "deleted scenes" on the DD release. The only English dub I've ever heard is the Dimension one, though I know there's an earlier one- I have never heard it. IMO, I think the dubbing on this sucks dead donkey dick. Just my opinion.

2)What print does this come from? The print that is on there, does it effectively and accurately portray the tone and essence of the movie? In other words, I know the dimension print was cut and due to that, changed the impact of the movie. Can the same be said with the Dragon Dynasty print?

I believe this print is true to the movie. The coda was only a few seconds, but was a very important part of the film that the dimension version had cut out, so I'm glad that's back. I can't recall what else was trimmed from Dim version though. If there were more cuts and you mention them, I'll check the DD one for you. It appears to be the same version released by Tai Seng as a two tape VHS back in the day, and this is the version I've seen countless times.

3) For a person that has not seen the movie, will those subs severly alter the mood/true meaning of whats going on?

-No, they won't. For instance, in the scene I quoted the sub differences from- Even though I like the "face" comment, the same thing is happening in the scene. The inspector is in a position where he feels that he has to be tolerant in the face of his enemy, and tries to still keep the peace. The Japanese student shows a total lack of respect for him. So unless you've seen the old subs a million times, you would not think anything seemed out of place, or confusing, and would still get the true meaning of the story. I thought the subs were very good in the DD version during important dialogue like Kurata's "Ant/Elephant speach", and when martial arts philosophy was being discussed.

4)So the only improvement this has to the Dimension release is that it is Uncut and a boosted image, right?

-Well, that and the extras, which seem pretty cool.

I'm personally glad I bought it. I'm definitely going to show this version to my son and buddy, niether of which has seen it. I hope I answered your questions okay. We should probably cut and paste this pm into the thread.

Peace, Bob>

Second, Morgoth reported that he accidentally bought a 1 disc edition. BruiseLee just started a new thread warning people too:

<Post by Bruiselee

FYI regarding Fist of Legend dvd

Avoid Walmarts' copies!

I went to Walmart this morning and noticed Fist of Legend was listed at $14.96 there, but it turned out that it was only 1 disc and it didn't have "2-Disc Ultimate Edition" listed on the cover (no slipcover either btw). So I swung over to Bestbuy and saw that they did have the 2-Disc version of it along with the slipcover listing it as the 2-disc version. It was $17.99 there.>

Third:

<Posted by GwaiLoMoFo

Unfortunatley they dont make their money off fans like us who want/care about those aspects. We make a very tiny section of the market. They make their money off averge-Joe's at Walmart who look for "Special Edition" DVD's w/DTS 6.1 audio (English) and Hi-def remastered video. Why is this so hard for people to understand!!?? Get it through your thick skulls, these DVD's are not produced to satisfy the wants and needs of people like us!! They will sell a hellova lot more DVD's with their version than if they put out one with the exact specs you listed. Its simple buisness people, and its still the Weinstein's (who are buisnessmen not fanboys!).>

I have to agree with Yi-Long here when I say patronizing people has no upside GwaiLoMoFo. It's so easy to talk to people like that when they're not standing right in front of you. Plus, people tend to listen with an open mind to comments or criticisms when they are stated politely. You ever hear the old saying "treat people the way you'd like to be treated"? It truly works wonders.

I do understand the business aspects of this. Sure, put the cover you think will sell the product (however lame and inappropriate it may be), the 5.1 English dubbing for "Joe Six-pack". Fine. They have to sell their product. But, their product would still sell to we hardcore fans with these features as long as it's uncut and has the unaltered original soundtrack as well. Including these two things would not have a negative effect on the sales, nor dissuade the average buyer. It's not too much to ask. Japanese films, French films, they get released with these two little aspects unaltered. Why not HK films?

Fourth: If there are "more balanced and mature" forums, I'm happy they are there for people to enjoy them. By why would anyone have to say that here? The point was?

Fifth: I think FIST OF LEGEND showed both sides of the Japanese people, and was fair in it's depiction. However, I agree with Markgway that the true attrocities of that war are not depicted in FoL. But personally, I feel that this is not the place for them. There are other films which focused on that aspect of history. This is a kung fu movie, and I am glad that the movie showed multiple perspectives of the Japanese people, as there certainly were in real life at that time. The terrible things are the ones we remember though. The Japanese army were as ruthless and inhuman to the Chinese as the German army were to the Jewish people during the war. But that doesn't mean that either of these whole country's citizens were torturing innocent people. We cannot all be judged by the sins of our fathers and brothers. I am an artist, and Oldeschool is my brother. But should I be judged for his crimes against art (as witnessed in his previous post)? I think not.

Sixth: Ka-thump Oh shlt. I just fell off my soapbox... and I think I may have broken my clavicle... ow.

[The Running Man]

'Fist of Legend' is the PC version of 'Fist of Fury' and no better for it. What the Japanese did to the Chinese during the War was nothing short of evil on a mass scale - millions tortured, raped and murdered. Something which the Japanese still to this day refuse to acknowledge or apologize for. You don't get any of this in 'Legend',

You don't even get that in "Fist of Fury". What does any of the atrocities that Japan did in that war have anything to do with either version of the story? Fist of Fury has no scenes where this becomes an issue. The Japanese occupation is the background and the reason why Japanese characters are in the story.

Understanding that, Fist of Fury is purely a movie of it's time and a simple minded one at that. All of the Japanese characters in Fist of Fury are pure evil. There is not even one level headed Japanese in the whole movie. In fact, some of the depiction is down right cartoonish. Fist of Legend in comparison is a far more mature tale. Yes, there are bad Japanese in Fist of Legend, but there are also bad Chinese as well. And as such both sides have good people as well.

A film that portrays every single person in that race as evil is nothing realistic. That's like saying that every German during Hitler's reign believed in everything he said and did. That's is clearly not the case. Even in the Nazi army there were commanders and soldiers who didn't believe in what Hitler wanted but they followed what they were told because if they didn't, that was the end of them.

Fist of Legend isn't a "PC" version of Fist of Fury. Fist of Legend is a more adult version of that story. Fist of Fury is of the same mentality where the common folk just lash out at the entire race instead of the select people who were actually evil.

I for one believe the Ritek version is the better cut of Fist of Legend. A shame there hasn't been a release of it with the Cantonese/Japanese audio.

[chen lung]

I for one believe the Ritek version is the better cut of Fist of Legend. A shame there hasn't been a release of it with the Cantonese/Japanese audio.

I thought that too, until Yi Long confirmed his Siren VHS has this Taiwanese edit in Cantonese:o.

[Guest WuxiaFan]

Running Man--TOTALLY AGREE!

No offense to Kung Fu Bob--excellent DVD summary--but I'm going to wait for Mark Pollard's DVD review before I buy the DD version.

[Killer Meteor]

TBH, I don't find Mr. Pollard's DVD reviews terribly well informed either...

[Guest WuxiaFan]

TBH, I don't find Mr. Pollard's DVD reviews terribly well informed either...

I find Mr. Pollard's DVD reviews AND movie reviews to be extremely well informed! I've bought many DVDs based on his reviews and found them to be spot on accurate. If he wasn't accurate or informed, he wouldn't be quoted on various DVDs that you see in the store, or this website and forums wouldn't be as popular as it is.

[chen lung]

I find Mr. Pollard's DVD reviews AND movie reviews to be extremely well informed! I've bought many DVDs based on his reviews and found them to be spot on accurate. If he wasn't accurate or informed, he wouldn't be quoted on various DVDs that you see in the store, or this website and forums wouldn't be as popular as it is.

What would be helpful is the mention of PAL/NTSC and if it's a conversion or progressive/interlaced .

[gorhama]

I find Marks reviews to be very good!! It's refreshing to hear a hardcore fan not nit pick the DVD releases to death and just enjoy them.

Don't get me wrong...I do like reading when there are issues and the comments on the SUBS...since I'm far from an expert. I guess I get the gist of the movie even if there weren't SUBS!!

[chen lung]

I find Marks reviews to be very good!! It's refreshing to hear a hardcore fan not nit pick the DVD releases to death and just enjoy them.

Don't get me wrong...I do like reading when there are issues and the comments on the SUBS...since I'm far from an expert. I guess I get the gist of the movie even if there weren't SUBS!!

Well that cool for some.

However, if they weren't so incompetently done, I wouldn't have to complain as I don't want to either .

[Guest Yi-Long]

I think EVERYONE wanted this to be the perfect release with nothing to bitch and moan about. Especially as our' demands' are pretty simple. So obviously people ARE going to moan when we have to wait MANY MANY years and it's still not as good as it could and should have been.

No-one likes to bitch and moan about releases. We just want good releases to enjoy. But if there's good reason to bitch and moan, and there is, than obviously we're gonna do that.

[daisho2004]

Got mine today at Walmart also got Fearless Directors Cut! Will post my reviews for both when I finish watching them both.

[Guest Markgway]

Nowhere did I deny the atrocoties of the japanese against the chinese. But in every war you also have 'good' men who are just following orders, so to speak.

That's not how LEGEND tells it. The film bends over backwards so as not to offend anybody. It has no guts. You have ONE nasty Japanese officer (Billy Chow) whereas in reality there would've maybe been one GOOD Japanese. The balance has shifted completely and that's a sign of the era in which this film was made. The 1970s filmmakers were more accutely aware of what went on.

Fist of Legend shows that the Japanese-Chinese war was a political decision, which many of the japanese didnt know properly of and didnt agree with. FOF depicts ALL Japanese as cardboard 'evil' people, and all chinese as 'heroes'. That's just not realistic and it's not the truth.

The difference is that FIST OF FURY is set entirely in Shanghai, where the Japanese were invaders, and oppressed the Chinese people. Maybe back in Japan the average Joe wasn't fully aware of what was going on overseas, but then the Japanese as a nation were nationalistic and xenophobic (Just as Hitler had turned Germany). LEGEND shows Japan and I don't have a problem with that, but it's too mild and determined not to offend. FURY is one-sided granted, but it more accurately shows what the Chinese people suffered. In fact, if anything it underplays. If you want to see the Japanese at their worst watch MEN BEHIND THE SUN. I'm not saying LEGEND should go that far into the extreme realities of the war, but neither should it present the invasion as an inconvenience.

[KUNG FU BOB]

. FURY is one-sided granted, but it more accurately shows what the Chinese people suffered. In fact, if anything it underplays. If you want to see the Japanese at their worst watch MEN BEHIND THE SUN. I'm not saying LEGEND should go that far into the extreme realities of the war, but neither should it present the invasion as an inconvenience.

I see your point Markgway. The occupying Japanese could have been depicted as a more ominous force, without becoming the charicatures they were in FoF. Still, I think there were probably many men like Kurata's character- men of honor- that found their country's oppression of others a dishonorable embarassment. :S

If anyone is interested in more on this topic, another film besides the hard-to-watch MEN BEHIND THE SUN: 731 and it's sequel, is BLACK SUN: THE NANKING MASSACRE. Another tough, brutal depiction of these events. You can see details for it here:

http://www.hkflix.com/xq/asp/filmID.532064/qx/details.htm

[Guest Markgway]

You don't even get that in "Fist of Fury". What does any of the atrocities that Japan did in that war have anything to do with either version of the story? Fist of Fury has no scenes where this becomes an issue...Understanding that, Fist of Fury is purely a movie of it's time and a simple minded one at that.

What about the scene where the Japanese murder all the Chinese in the Kung Fu school? (Off screen) The Japanese in Shanghai weren't ordinary Japanese citizens, as seen in LEGEND, they were there as invaders in a bid to take over China. It's estimated that during the entire occupation 37 million Chinese were murdered, that's almost ten times the population of my country. FURY maybe a simple movie, I'm not denying that, but it at least approaches some of the anger felt by Chinese, and the awfulness of what the Japanese did to them. LEGEND, I felt, in a bid to be "fair" and "enlightened" missed that.

There is not even one level headed Japanese in the whole movie. In fact, some of the depiction is down right cartoonish. Fist of Legend in comparison is a far more mature tale. Yes, there are bad Japanese in Fist of Legend, but there are also bad Chinese as well. And as such both sides have good people as well.

I agree that FURY could have done with a little more light and shade, and is of its time, but the movie doesn't say everyone in Japan is evil, rather the invaders who've come to oppress the Chinese people are, and who did so with extreme violence. The invaders in LEGEND just seem too mild-mannered and tolerant for my liking. In reality they would have burnt down the entire school with everyone in it rather than lose face to a Chinese. It's true that there were Chinese who betrayed their country and in FURY that would be "The Interpreter" played by Wei Ping-Ao.

A film that portrays every single person in that race as evil is nothing realistic. That's like saying that every German during Hitler's reign believed in everything he said and did. That's is clearly not the case.

Not all Germans were Nazis, but all Nazis were German. How many movies have there been about good Nazis? None, because millions of innocent people were murdered by them, and the "good" Germans did nothing. They supported a racist dictator all the way to the top and watched him slaughter in their name. Hitler was one tiny little man, without public backing he was nothing. Germany made a choice, a choice it will forever regret. Unlike the Germans the Japanese aren't all that repentant today and refuse to accept the truth. In schools they get taught a bull**** version of history so as not to dent national pride. Not all Japanese were evil, but the invaders were. And that's whom FURY was about, and whom LEGEND should've been about.

Even in the Nazi army there were commanders and soldiers who didn't believe in what Hitler wanted but they followed what they were told because if they didn't, that was the end of them.

A few amongst the many.

Fist of Legend isn't a "PC" version of Fist of Fury. Fist of Legend is a more adult version of that story.

It's more intelligent, yes, but misses the mark. Had it been a dumber movie I probably wouldn't have expected so much from it. But the better made a film is the more closely I scrutinise it. And I found the film lacking for all the aforementioned reasons. I did enjoy it though - as entertainment. I am a Jet Li fan.

[The Dragon]

... I picked it up today at my local Best Buy, and I was able to get the two pack, which also included Dragon Dynasty's release of Shanghai Express, for $22.99.

[HAZ]

I always thought any difference in the way that the Japanese are portrayed between fisr of fury/legend had to do with the times in which each film was made. What you could get away with in the 70's wouldn't fly in the 90's.

[venoms5]

You guys should read the book about the entire Nanking ordeal if you want to learn about what really happened before levying accusations at people--the NY Times best seller THE RAPE OF NANKING: THE FORGOTTEN HOLOCAUST OF WW2. The two movies from Mou Tin fei are NOTHING compared to this book. Those movies barely scratch the surface of the atrocities committed to the Chinese. This book is one of the most harrowing I've ever read and one that you can't put down once you start reading it.

Also, one of the heroes of the Nanking massacre and witness to the treatment of the Chinese was in fact a Nazi. His name was John Rabe and the author of the book, Iris Chang, speaks highly of him. The man spoke out against the treatment the Chinese received and even smuggled out footage of cruelties to America in the linings of a jacket; footage that became propaganda films in US theaters and I think some of it is on the NANKING MASSACRE dvd. According to Chang even Hitler was disturbed by what the Japanese military was doing but turned a blind eye to it even threatening Rabe should he continue to intervene. Considering the Japanese were once great friends of the British government it is discussed as to why they suddenly turned savage and unrepentantly cruel towards the British and especially the Chinese people.

Incidentally, Iris Chang was found dead a few years ago, the victim of an apparent suicide during her worldwide jaunt to educate the population of what happened during that time. Her grandmother, a survivor from the massacre, was instrumental in writing her book.

Also, I have a 2 hour documentary called HORROR IN THE EAST. A really brutal and uncensored and often times shocking look at Nanking and the torture/murders of US, British, Australian and other forces during the war. Kamikaze's that survived(!) are interviewed as are American soldiers and they hold nothing back in their stories. Some of the Japanese soldiers begin shedding tears telling some of the things they had to do. One Japanese man says a great number of soldiers didn't want to die for their country or commit the acts but were threatened with death or worse if they didn't comply. Chinese survivors from the massacre are also interviewed.

[venoms5]

Maybe I've missed something here what with all this history and its relation to FIST OF LEGEND as I don't have time at the moment to peruse this entire thread, but FIST OF LEGEND never struck me as an historical drama so much as a straight up action movie. Maybe I should see it again but I don't recall it's need for existing to have anything to do with historical significance as to what happened during China's occupation. Jet Li beating the bad guys to a pulp was all I got from this. Simple good vs evil story.