Kill Bill: Vol. 1 (2003) & Kill Bill: Vol. 2 (2004)

[Guest Ministry88]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply teako. I see what you are saying about how KB and other such films might have a positive effect in getting uninitiated viewers to seek out the films that inspired QT. BUT, I have also noted, much to my dismay, that those who seek out more obscure films after hearing about them from QT films or other such films is the viewer stays stuck in this hollow, smarmy, self-referential hipster mentality when watching the original films (like SB films, Japanese samurai films, Eurohorror, etc). It's like they want to see the original films just to see how it fits into QT's universe or something. They thus view the original films out of context and see them as a gimmick, or more dangerously so, as a reflection of the entire genre or even Chinese or Japanese culture. But such is the current state of media saturation and postmodernism: media images and those with the "cool" factor (like QT) control the interpretation of certain realities: if QT has his seal of approval on a video box of a kung fu film, then THAT, and only that, is kung fu and worth watching. Media has simply allowed the traditional power structure (kings, queens, presidents) to diffuse to a new, more ambiguous and amorphous group of celebrities, self-styled "experts", analyists, and even entire corporations who now have the type of moral and cultural authority formally characteristic of kings and despots. I have seen with my own eyes college students base their entire libido and outlook on sexuality based on the mass-produced and digitally enhanced photography of oiled and shaved "models" in Maxim magazine. I ask you, has sex (and violence) EVER been more boring than in the 21st century? Is that not inhuman and maddening, that the media has somehow done the seemingly impossible, that is, managed to dilute and deaden that what is so fundamental, fascinating, controversial, and joyful in humanity? It's like sex and violence isn't real anymore, it's so over-aestheticized and fetishtized (just look at KB's glossy violence).

I very much like and agree what Pasolini said about this new mysterious Power when he said it was even more pernicious than fascism and how it has adversely affected Italian (and, in my opinion, all Western) youth:

"Once out of (fascist) uniform, however, the young would head to their native villages and fields, and return to being the Italians of one hundred, one hundred fifty years before. Fascism had transformed them into clowns and serfs, and perhaps had even partially indoctrinated them, but did not touch their soul, their real identity. On the contrary, consumer society, i.e. this new fascism, has deeply changed this youth, has touched them intimately and has given them other ways of thinking and living, in short other cultural models. It is no longer a question, as with Mussolini's regime, of a picturesque and superficial regimentation, but of a real regimentation which steals their soul from them."

Western (and especially American, the most debauched of it all) capitalism has created this sickening and yet fascinating feedback loop where the media creates a culture of hyper-active need and consumerism where materialism is lauded and reigns supreme and where soul and art, with its sometimes lugubrious introspection and spirituality, slows the process of consumerism and aquisition (the raison d'etre of the average American: to modify Descartes' famous quote: "I have, therefore I am") because it requires taste and selectivity. So the filmmakers these days (QT included) really are giving people what they want: souless diversion that distracts them from their desperately hollow lives, lives which they are unable to adventurously look at and enrich because they have grown (literally and figuratively) morbidly obese on capitalist prosperity, a prosperity that makes them lazy and frightened of even the most minimal emotional anguish (emotional anguish that is essential for introspection and growth). Are we becoming Nietzsche's "last men," those who have deluded themselves in believing materialistic prosperity and anaesthathizing peace are the ultimate goals of man? I sure hope not. My soul wouldn't survive.

I firmly believe that true art can only be truly appreciated by adventurous souls and those who NEED art to both heal and feel their soul. You need to know yourself deeply to feel the artist's anguish and entertain their possible solutions. But for the average Westerner (especially of the 20-ish generation), true art is redundant and entirely incomprehensible and indistinguishable from junk like THE MATRIX (at best, a confused postmodern mush of slick and sexy metaphysical mumbo jumbo already pondered over far better from everyone from Plato to Hume to Kant to Nietzsche) because the average viewer just doesn't have the emotional or spiritual maturity to see what's true art and mere mindless diversion.

So that is my long answer (very long!) to why I don't think it's necessarily a great thing that QT's films refer audiences to more obscure films. The average intended audience for QT's films (the 20ish hipsters) simply don't have the emotional or spiritual capacity to comprehend those films. At best, once these films were viewed they'd be edited into a postmodernish mush montage/trailer for that ultimate shrine of postmodernism sh*t, youtube.

**PS: Hey teako, are you British? How is this current cultural malaise and degradation this post talks about like in England? It's been my assumption that the US is leading the way in this BS, and other Western European nations are behind (but not too far behind and catching up fast) by still being somewhat sensible and realizing what is really important in life. I dunno, it just seems to me that the West is slowly dying of terminal apathy. Social and huminatarian programs have largely failed (for a great artistic resonation on this, see the film THE HOSPITAL with George C. Scott), and it seems all the West has left to occupy itself with is medical research and space exploration. Blecch...

[Guest limubai2000]

OMG (or Buddha for me) Min, you just totally typed out my entire outlook on Western culture these days, it predominately applies to us Americans and our culture but to a degree Western culture as a whole.

I moved to Guam (a far away territory of the US, located in Asia) to get away from some of this stuff, though at the time I didn't realize it like I do now. Even the short time I've been here, 6 years this month, I have noticed the degredation here due to these influences.

Western (and especially American, the most debauched of it all) capitalism has created this sickening and yet fascinating feedback loop where the media creates a culture of hyper-active need and consumerism where materialism is lauded and reigns supreme and where soul and art, with its sometimes lugubrious introspection and spirituality, slows the process of consumerism and aquisition (the raison d'etre of the average American: to modify Descartes' famous quote: "I have, therefore I am") because it requires taste and selectivity. So the filmmakers these days (QT included) really are giving people what they want: souless diversion that distracts them from their desperately hollow lives, lives which they are unable to adventurously look at and enrich because they have grown (literally and figuratively) morbidly obese on capitalist prosperity, a prosperity that makes them lazy and frightened of even the most minimal emotional anguish (emotional anguish that is essential for introspection and growth). Are we becoming Nietzsche's "last men," those who have deluded themselves in believing materialistic prosperity and anaesthathizing peace are the ultimate goals of man? I sure hope not. My soul wouldn't survive.

I want to add to this something here that I have just been reading about. The US public educational system is built to breed this type of people.

Read these for more -

www.newciv.org/whole/schoolteacher.txt

www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm

There was also some related articles on how the public school system in the US and the Catholic church promote consumerism, but I don't have those links handy.

So in a way we were indoctrinated into this culture, some of us just evolved beyond it, in my case I can directly attribute it study of the Chinese martial arts, Buddhism, and that according to my Chinese zodiac being a dog I naturally look at things in a deeper more spiritual way and I can be quite discontent spiritually when I am at odds with my enviroment. I realized the latter was true after having my full zodiac done in Taiwan and it was simply a crystalization of feelings I have had a good portion of my entire life, I just lacked the words to fully describe it until 2003. I do know that films like CTHD, Hero and quite a few older films had a measured effect in this process.

Back OT, QT is a product of the enviroment and I would also agree with the way you see people who discover these older films from Kill Bill. They don't see the films in the same light as some of us do and in a way I have a small measure of pity for them as they can't enjoy them a more meaningful level due to their soulessness.

Of course I have to point out that the internet has played a large role in this process of degredation, so I hope you guys see the irony as I do in this thread.

[Guest Isfahani]

Irony, quite.

But then there's EASTERN capitalism, which for a time, possibly still is, taking over land in the western capitalist territories...

And if you have a working practical replacement for the capitalist system, please spell it out, we could use it.

Me, I am an Imperial Monarchist now.

And KB... was cute, for a while.

[Guest Iron Boat]

Well I am way ahead of you all, I realized Kill Bill was crap instantly. Only 20 minutes in and it was already being returned to Hollywood video.

But as for the original post...I love how you college students read a little Hegel, Marx, Baurdillard, Nietsche, or Durkheim, and can't wait to apply it. In this case to Kill Bill :lol

[Guest teako170]

Its just as Lenin predicted. In the early 20s he commented that the cinema was the most important medium for educating the masses in the ways, means and successes of Communism. He saw it as a propaganda tool.

Communism has, as we've seen, failed but not the tool.

Today, the small screen has become an extension of this concept and instead of selling communism, its selling capitalism. And whatever else the mighty kings and queens of mass media wish to cram down our throats -- be it a new sneaker, a soda pop or a philosophy.

Thus, the "boob tube" (and yes the net) can be used for good or evil - it just depends on who controls the reigns. TV is now the educator of our children. Its the new baby-sitter. What a scary thought.

**PS: Hey teako, are you British?

Not a Brit myself but Mark and some others who frequent the board might be able to help you on that.

A bit back on topic... I leave you with a quote from one of my favorite 80s flix: "About Last Night."

Elizabeth Perkins: Worried about Western civilization? -

Rob Lowe: Not particularly. Not tonight.

Elizabeth Perkins: It's collapsing, or didn't you notice? -

Rob Lowe: I live in a pretty good neighborhood.

Ahh, ignorance is bliss, yes?

[Guest limubai2000]

Well I am way ahead of you all, I realized Kill Bill was crap instantly. Only 20 minutes in and it was already being returned to Hollywood video.

Actually we were discussing this stuff when it was in the theater, this is merely a more in depth revisit. So we in effect were ahead of you by virtue that we discussed it pre-video release. Neener neener

But as for the original post...I love how you college students read a little Hegel, Marx, Baurdillard, Nietsche, or Durkheim, and can't wait to apply it. In this case to Kill Bill

You realize that application of theory shows that he actually learned the material. As opposed to the masses who just memorize it to pass a class. It would be great if more people could apply this stuff more often, the US would be a much better place. Then again maybe I'm just getting old or more idealistic, I haven't figured that out quite yet.

Today, the small screen has become an extension of this concept and instead of selling communism, its selling capitalism. And whatever else the mighty kings and queens of mass media wish to cram down our throats -- be it a new sneaker, a soda pop or a philosophy.

Righty-o on that one.

[Guest Ministry88]

"But as for the original post...I love how you college students read a little Hegel, Marx, Baurdillard, Nietsche, or Durkheim, and can't wait to apply it. In this case to Kill Bill"

Well not exactly. I have not read "a little" of Nietzsche but have spent a sizeable part of my adult and adolescent life (at least four years now) studying him on my own (both his original works and commentaries by such translators and commentators as Walter Kaufmann and Stanley Rosen), well before college, which includes reading his books and essays in order as he intended and writing copious notes and outlines to articulately and correctly follow his thought. I actually hate learning about philosophy in college because it takes the fun out of learning about it for yourself, dilutes the epiphanous joys of newfound perception, and not to mention all the endless back-and-forth arguments and bickering in the classes about the "true" meaning. I will say with certainty that any of what I said in my original post came from self-instruction, intuition, and emotional introspection. By the time I got to college, most of what was taught to me about philosophy was redundant. And please do not detect ego in this; I am merely stating the fact. If you are a true lover of knowlege and art from an early age as I was and would rather embrace solitude by reading good books and thinking deeply instead of getting drunk at parties or passing time with assholes that you delude yourself into thinking are your friends, than by the time you reach college you'll find most of your learning is done OUTSIDE the classroom, as it has been done in High School. I will leave you with this: Truly pretentious people read Nietzsche, Dostoevsky, and other "heavy" writers/philosophers in order to prove they are smart and battle their inferiority complexes. Those who aren't pretentious read them simply for the joy of thinking, elevating their spirit, and simply feeling alive. The same could be said of "heavy" directors like Tarkovsky, Bergman, Fellini, Pasolini, etc...

BUT, I know what you mean about applying a smattering of philosophy to a text (especially film). It is what is ruining a lot of film criticism these days (do we really need to read about the parallels of Charlie of Charlie and the Chocalate Factory and Julius Caesar? Yes, that is a TRUE article I heard of years ago): it is mere dusty circles of overly academic types jumping through analytic hula hoops and adding nothing new to the field, instead just rehashing old theories with seemingly new angles (like a philosopher that hasn't been used to analyze a film yet). That is why when I write film criticism I try to incorporate as many NEW facts (by interviewing the filmmakers/stars themselves) as possible and to write as unpretentiously as possible -- I have nothing to hide.

I stand by what I said about KB -- I don't think what I said was pretentious because I genuinely felt it in my heart and was actually sickened by what I saw. It hit me hard that what philosophers such as Nietzsche and Baudrillard had prophisized and are prophesizing is coming true, and it's really quite sad. It was a post more of emotional desperation and alienation than one of collegiate chest-puffing and intellectual somersaulting.

And as to Isfahani: I know exactly what you are saying about finding a working replacement for capitalism. I do not want to come across as biting the hand that feeds me. Despite all this BS that I've been talking about in the posts, it still IS possible to live a good life in the US (although it is getting harder). I LIKE not having to worry about starving. I LIKE having a/c and heating. I LIKE being able to afford my own apartment on basically a minimum wage job. I LIKE my freedoms and the fact I can read/watch anything I want to. All I'm saying is that the seams of capitalism and Western "progress" are beginning to show, and the darkside of capitalism is a loss of spirit and common humanity.

[Guest Iron Boat]

Hey I understand what you mean, I myself am well versed in the workings of the philosophe's and I understand your take on the Medium is the Massage. And that you mention that much of what you learn is and has been through obsevation echoes the original philosophies of Plato and Socrates. Its kind of funny because this discussion is headed toward the Matrix or the Simulacra or Simulacrum if you will. Basically I understand what your saying....

[Guest The Running Man]

why not complete the circle and do a review like that for Kill Bill vol 2?

Because like Kill Bill vol.1 when it ends, I am sitting here with a bit of anticipation to see what happens in the second film. In this case, what you would write about it.

[Guest The Amazing Psychoper]

But for the average Westerner (especially of the 20-ish generation), true art is redundant and entirely incomprehensible and indistinguishable from junk like THE MATRIX (at best, a confused postmodern mush of slick and sexy metaphysical mumbo jumbo already pondered over far better from everyone from Plato to Hume to Kant to Nietzsche) because the average viewer just doesn't have the emotional or spiritual maturity to see what's true art and mere mindless diversion

I think there is something you don't get here. Of course movies like the Matrix are not high art, but just the fact that it got some people to maybe dig deeper and introduced them to concept they had never been exposed to, is a noble quality. Take the exemple of "Simulacres et simulation" by Jean Beaudrillard, it's reference in the Matrix got many people to read it and from there went on to discover other works in the same veine. It pisses me off when people only sware by what they consider high art and spit on the rest. To touch the uninitiated you got to find a format to connect with them, in this case The Matrix. Don't get me wrong I don't care if you didn't like the movie, I'm just trying to defend the fact that it's usefull. Doing art that will only touch the initiated can get pointless if no effort is made to try to touch new people that didn't went to college or just weren't exposed enough to philosophy, litterature, cinema (not movies, cinema), etc... I don't know if you get my point but that was about it...

Oh yeah and for the original post I'm with you on Kill Bill. Tarrantino is a thief. There is references and there is pure and simple larceny (Just look at the ending of Reservoir Dogs ripped from City on Fire!!!). But I must confess that I still enjoy watching some of his stuff.

:evil The Amazing Psychoper

[Guest sevenhooks]

Oh yeah and for the original post I'm with you on Kill Bill. Tarrantino is a thief. There is references and there is pure and simple larceny (Just look at the ending of Reservoir Dogs ripped from City on Fire!!!).

There seems to be an amazing double standard among HK cineastes that consistently attack the "blatant thievery" of someone like QT,

yet always seem to look the other way whenever it's done by a HK director.

Which happens so often, I could seriously write a book on the subject.

The sheer volume of cinematic plagerism commited by HK filmmakers is immense. They pillage from western cinema constantly.

Case in point: Eastern Condors (one of my favorite films to ever come out of the colony by the way).

You're talking about The Dirty Dozen, The Wild Geese, The Deer Hunter.

And those are just the obvious ones.

Was Sammo simply "paying homage"?

I think not.

Again, this takes nothing away from my enjoyment of the film.

It's still a fun, kick ass movie. Point blank.

But I'm growing rather weary of folks that seem to think that this is somehow a one way street.

And what's up with all this stuffy intellectual yin yang?

Talk about pretentious!

I thought I accidently wandered into a Berkeley lecture hall for a minute.

Seriously, does anyone still watch movies for the fun of it anymore??

[Guest Chinatown Kid]

Seriously, does anyone still watch movies for the fun of it anymore??

I DO!!!

[Guest limubai2000]

I think I can safely say that I watch many movies for fun. Quite often I argue that a film is fun or just good in the modern forum while many folks tear the film to shreds because Jackie didn't do 10 awesome choreographed long fights scenes or some crap.

But I think where this issue differs is in what Ministry noted as the trend amoung viewers who see Kill Bill and then view the films QT ripped off in strictly a trendster mentality. And then well we kinda went off topic but in a good I think.

Check my Rob B Hood review for an example of my opening comments, I thought the film was fun and it made me laugh. Many folks ripped it to shreds coz they expected something else. Maybe it's just coz I try to follow a Buddhist philosophy of "expecting little or nothing", then again maybe not.

[Guest Chinatown Kid]

All the fans that have seen the classics that QT ripped off know better than to think they are original ideas from him and know where he got the "inspiration" from. I guess if you look at it as paying homage or respect to past classics Kill Bill is not so bad altough it pales in comparison to the films it imitates. But I do try to look at some of the positive like in that maybe if people who aren't aware of where QT got his inspiration from would possibly do some research and seek out the films that he borrowed from who might otherwise never be interested in seeing those classics. Sometimes this is the only way to reach young people who only care about the new and trendy. Is Kill Bill a great film? Not really. Am I glad Kill Bill was made? Yes and I did find it entertaining for what it was.

[Guest teako170]

And what's up with all this stuffy intellectual yin yang?

Talk about pretentious!

I thought I accidently wandered into a Berkeley lecture hall for a minute.

I say Perciville, who is this bloke with the long white beard?

Hmph, that is Mr. Hooks, I believe Winston. I say to you Mr. Hooks, may we be of service or did you just crash our tea & crumpets discussion for the sheer jolly of it?

That's odd Perciville. Why does he not answer?

Isn't it obvious Winston. Such high-brow deliberation is not meant for the commoners. Let us pay him no mind now and continue our dialogue on the .... what the...?

Did you see that Perciville? Mr. Hooks appears offended by your demeanor.

Ha- I scoff at this cad. Mr. Hooks, you do not intimidate nor impress, sir. Be off before I let you feel the cold sting of my saber.

Your words don't seem to sway him Perciville. But yet, eghads! What is that he has drawn from his robe?

It appears some type of throwing projectile? Ninja shuriken?

EGHADS---! No. Much worse than that I am afraid to admit.

Why it appears to be vinyl. Haha what a fool.

NO Perciville, we are the fools. Mr. Hooks is armed with heavy artillery -- 33LP!! We are doomed...!!!!

:b

[Guest Chinatown Kid]

I do say ole boy, what stimulating conversation. i'm going to have tea and crumpets and will be back to discuss this matter further. Goodday mate!

[Guest Markgway]

Ha- I scoff at this cad. Mr. Hooks, you do not intimidate nor impress, sir. Be off before I let you feel the cold sting of my saber.

Ooh, and you were so close... but an Englishman would never spell SABRE as SABER. Off with this impostor's worthless head and forty lashes for his family.

[Guest sevenhooks]

NO Perciville, we are the fools. Mr. Hooks is armed with heavy artillery -- 33LP!! We are doomed...!!!!

Doomed indeed.

:b

[Guest teako170]

but an Englishman would never spell SABRE as SABER.

Funny as I actually spelled it like that, at first, but then the bloody word-check changed it. :\

[Guest limubai2000]

So the Firefox spell check is the culprit... sure teak... sureeeeeeee.

[Guest Chinatown Kid]

It's elementry my dear Watson!

Anybody ever watch Mr. Bean? That Brit's a hoot. He used to come on HBO but they took it off.

[Guest Ministry88]

Very interesting responses guys. Sevenhooks, you bring up an excellent point: indeed HK filmmakers do borrow (or outright steal) from other films and filmmakers. BUT, in the case of filmmakers like Ringo Lam or John Woo, they inject genuine soul and emotion, which to me signifies an authentic artist. The same goes for a filmmaker like Martin Scorcese, who in my opinion is a far more humane and savvy importer of filmic influences (like neorealism) than QT.

As for what the amazing psychoper's point of films like THE MATRIX opening new doors for viewers who have yet to be exposed to philosophical works and such, I can't really agree because I haven't met anyone who has genuinely taken an interest in Baudrillard, Nietzsche, or any other philosopher after seeing a film like THE MATRIX. Worse still, what I am really saying is that the current generation of moviegoers MISTAKE films like THE MATRIX for true art, when it's really just (marginally) smart escapism. THAT I have experienced, almost unanimously from people who have seen the film.

I also am not surprised by some posts accusing me of being pretentious and stuffy. Often on message boards it seems to be a liability to post something with far-reaching concepts or with references to "deep" things. Unfortunately, I think this is a result of the internet's impersonality; you can't detect tone of voice or body language on a message board, and what seems pretentious or mere boasting is really just an observation. But I decided to post anyway, because I was genuinely interested in what everyone else had to say, most of which has been great.

And YES, Chinatown kid, I watch films for fun. Hell, one of my favorite movies is DUMB AND DUMBER, and I've spent good money on copies of Joe Dante's THE BURBS (it's all about the Bruce Dern!), HOT SHOTS!, BASIC INSTINCT, and DIE HARD. Believe me, there is PLENTY of room for low brow AND highbrow entertainment, and I like it all.

[Guest Chinatown Kid]

I hear ya man, glad I'm not alone! BTW, nothing wrong with thinking deep thoughts about a film, it can lead to most interesting disscussions and alot of times learn things we never knew.

[Guest teako170]

Stimulating dissection of a film is always a fun diversion for me Ministry88. Heck, I took film courses in college that might put some folks to sleep - but its a topic that I find engaging. Of course its not always easy to find someone at your local pub to enlist in such conservation, so the net has definitely provided me with the ability to do that very thing.

And if someone ever feels I come off stuffy, well I usually ignore it.

No, scratch that. Actually I just show them my "quart of blood technique."

You see... "cause I'm a karate man, see! And a karate man bruises on the inside!"

[Guest Markgway]

Must confess I'm not really into all that philisophical discussion... but any fellow owner of The 'Burbs is alright by me...