Kill Bill: Vol. 1 (2003) & Kill Bill: Vol. 2 (2004)

[Guest Markgway]

So you think that Pulp Fiction is a better screenplay than Reservoir Dogs but think that RD s a better film?

No. I think 'Dogs' is better in both regards. I'm not mad on 'Pulp' though I can see it's attraction and merits.

and yeah, I think Sin City's quite garbage

I didn't care for it either. The only RR film I own is 'The Faculty'.

[Guest The Running Man]

No. I think 'Dogs' is better in both regards. I'm not mad on 'Pulp' though I can see it's attraction and merits.

Ah. It's just that you wrote before that you felt Tarantino's best work was when it was either co-written with someone else (Fiction) or based on outside source material (Brown). Got a lil' confused.

[Guest Dion Brother]

I think his worst work is FROM DUSK TIL DAWN. Lousy script.

The original script of NBK is no great shakes either, but barely resembles what was filmed, so I don't count it.

I'm not a fan of CTHD or most Hong Kong movies after 1993. If you are a longtime reader of this forum, that should be no surprise to you. The only Hong Kong movie I've really loved in the last few years is KUNG FU HUSTLE. I'm from that oldschool Damon Foster circle of fans. We are a picky lot.

[Guest Chinatown Kid]

There's just something about Pulp Fiction that makes it rise above Tarantino's other films to me. Travolta and Jackson are incredibly charasmatic with their hip, witty dialogue and when they start having "philosophical' debates it's incredibly cool. This film singlehandedly resurrected Travolta's career and made a star out of Jackson. Willis's performance as a brokedown over the hill boxer character who refuses to take a dive and takes the money and runs was also delightful and engaging. I must say the rape scene involving Ving Rhames caught me totally off guard and was shocking when I first saw this in the theatres way back in 1994. It's just a movie with and incredibly hip vibe.

I can't take anything away from Reservoir Dogs, it's a great film and incredibly gritty and flashy as well. I especially liked Steve Buscemi's preformance. Also remember the late Chris Penn(Sean's brother) in it, it's a shame he died so young of having an enlarged heart and being overweight.

[Guest Dion Brother]

"Co-authored is too nice of a term. He basically ripped an entire story from Avery. Roger Avery's contribution to that script was 1/3 and it was the Bruce Willis story. What Tarantino did was take that exactly as it was from one of Avery's short stories and simply inject it into the web of the rest of the movie."

And Avery got an Oscar because they shared screenplay credit. "ripped" is too harsh a term. There were many detractors at the time that claimed QT's success was because of Avery, yet Avery's non-QTwork shows no evidence of an exceptional writer. A decent one, but nothing exceptional.

[Guest The Running Man]

I'm not a fan of CTHD or most Hong Kong movies after 1993. If you are a longtime reader of this forum, that should be no surprise to you. The only Hong Kong movie I've really loved in the last few years is KUNG FU HUSTLE. I'm from that oldschool Damon Foster circle of fans. We are a picky lot.

I am not a fan of CTHD either, but I wouldn't consider most of what came out after '93 to be totally worthless crap and that I would watch rather Kill Bill over them.

And it's not that you are picky. You just like to complain a lot.

BTW, isn't Damon Foster that dude that ran those old fanzines?

And Avery got an Oscar because they shared screenplay credit. "ripped" is too harsh a term.

Ripped is actually quite accurate. Tarantino coerced and forced Avery to drop his credit to just "story by" because Tarantino wanted the credits to say "Written and Directed by:" him.

There were many detractors at the time that claimed QT's success was because of Avery, yet Avery's non-QTwork shows no evidence of an exceptional writer. A decent one, but nothing exceptional.

His work has it's moments, but it never adds up. Rules of Attraction for example had a couple of great moments but it was a mess in the end. One thing I don't think can be argued is that the man is very inspired and I would say probably more genuinely inspired than Tarantino is. It's just Tarantino knows how to put everything together and make it work. Avery just seems to be a guy with a collection of great ideas.

BTW, I see no sign or evidence of him in Crying Freeman and Silent Hill. Not arguing that he did work on those films, just saying that the work he did doesn't seem to have his voice in them at all. Perhaps it was more to clean up or give polish to the English on Gan's scripts.

[Guest Dion Brother]

"BTW, isn't Damon Foster that dude that ran those old fanzines? "

Indeed, Oriental Cinema. I wouldn't even be reading this today if it wasn't for that zine.

Avary is kind of like Robert Towne, a writer of more good ideas than a complete screenplay. He's not as derivative as Tarantino, but doesn't have QT's gift for dialogue. It's no surprise he works more as a script doctor than an original scenarist.

I can't think of any Post-93 HK movies I really enjoyed. It's rough when you go from being excited about four Hong Kong movies a month to roughly two a year that usually disappointed. I think anybody reading this that remembers the golden days of the late 80s tape collecting and Chinatown movie hopping knows what I"m talking about. <Sniffle>

[Guest Tosh]

It's just Trantino knows how to put everything together and make it work.

And there seems to be a lot of filmmakers out there, that haven't got that part.

I can't think of any Post-93 HK movies I really enjoyed. It's rough when you go from being excited about four Hong Kong movies a month to roughly two a year that usually disappointed. I think anybody reading this that remembers the golden days of the late 80s tape collecting and Chinatown movie hopping knows what I"m talking about. <Sniffle>

Unfortunately , I never got to see the old ones in the theater, but I was watching blackbelt theater, and f-n-a for betmax and videostores. I agree some of Tsui Hark is overrated, and a lot of the wire use went overboard, but I think there's still some good films out there.

[Guest Markgway]

Avery also "contributed" to the True Romance and Reservoir Dogs scripts, written whilst they worked together. Is that not right?

[Guest The Running Man]

I believe all that Avery did on Reservoir Dogs was the radio broadcast dialog.

For True Romance, I know that he worked on it and is uncredited, but to the extent of how much of his work is in the final script I do not know.

[Guest Reincarnation Of Thundering Mantis]

Sorry I have to disagree about Rules of Attraction. I loved the film and was glad that somebody made a movie that resembles some of my life stories. Shame I wish I read the book when it first came out. The story has a few layers to it and according to the author of the book (who's writing style is very unique and has been described as chaotic) thinks it's the best film made from his books.

Every character is fully realised within the context of the story. I feel no ones character is left hanging or any little story within the film is left unresolved. Avary was able to flesh each character and give them there appropriate time and relevence onscreen. It's a shame Fincher didn't keep his draft for Lords of Dogtown. But I feel it was because of Rules that Fincher looked in Avary's direction for Dogtown.

Nope, looking back I don't like Tarantino. I've said it before and I'll say it again Tarantino is the P. Diddy of Hollywood. Notice I said Hollywood and not Cinema. If you were to watch the Kill Bill films and physically ring a bell for every idea he "borrows" or pays "homage" to, your hand and arm would basically fall off within the first 45 minutes of part 1.

I'd rather take the last 15 years of HK Cinema than the Kill Bill films. It would be unfair to compare them to the previous 15 years (1975-1990) of HK Cinema. Heck that Muse video for "Knights of Cydonia" was a more fun and effective homage to Kung Fu and Italian Westerns.

Whoa, Damon Foster. I loved his magazine, shame it isn't around anymore. Yes he is very opionated and comes from a very distinct mind set. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[Guest Tosh]

Nope, looking back I don't like Tarantino. I've said it before and I'll say it again Tarantino is the P. Diddy of Hollywood. Notice I said Hollywood and not Cinema. If you were to watch the Kill Bill films and physically ring a bell for every idea he "borrows" or pays "homage" to, your hand and arm would basically fall off within the first 45 minutes of part 1.

Yeah, but that was kinda the point to the KB movies.

[Guest Reincarnation Of Thundering Mantis]

I can't praise "homage" movies. Sure Kill Bill was energetic and entertaining. But in this day in age when every film is a remake or a sequel and newer directors tend to crib from previous directors. I feel as if I'm drowning in a sea of fascimile mediocrity.

Back in the day I read somewhere that young writers wanted to write the "great American novel", later on that notion translated to film and filmmakers wanting to make films that expressed there beliefs and experiences based on there current social climate.

Now everything is a copy of a copy. This current generation of filmmakers seem to make films based on ideas from older films and not there own original ideas and experiences. It would seem the experiences of there lives are not reflected in there films. Of course there are a few exceptions.

For every 10,000 spectators who in turn witness the 1000 cinema geeks who raise the banner of Tarantino. There has to be at least 1 person who says wait a minute. To those who don't know it's all been done before. Tarantino didn't invent these ideas (IMO he didn't even do them justice) and the sad thing I'm under the impression that many unintiated viewers are content in believing the false contrary.

As stated by others before Kill Bill and QT's homages may introduce older films to those who may want to learn about them. That of course is a good thing.

[Guest reason108]

Sadly, the music world suffers from the same thing. It seems that original movies and music are getting harder to find.

[Guest Shun Fist]

in so many ways i liked that movie more than KB 1, mostly because how much of a western fan that i am.

[Guest sevenhooks]

Tarantino's most boring film.

That would be Jackie Brown.

One of the few flicks I steady slept through (from about the 30 minute mark - on).

[Guest Chen Zhen]

i agree with 7...while its still a good overall movie, at times it got pretty boring..and its a pretty long movie too. not to mention, it doesnt have much of that trademark Tarantino dialogue wit that his others have. personally, i'd watch any of his other films over Jackie Brown..includin KB2.

fav tarantino films/scripts in this order:

Pulp Fiction

True Romance

Rerservoir Dogs

Kill Bill1

Kill Bill2

Jackie Brown

[Guest kungfusamurai]

There's just something about Pulp Fiction that makes it rise above Tarantino's other films to me.

I agree that Pulp Fiction was Tarantino's masterpiece. It was slick, fresh, and way better than anything from that period. I remember going to see it a number of times in the theatre. One group of friends didn't like it. They were like 'what the f&*& is going on?'. They just didn't get it. But I thought it was so wickedly entertaining. Reservoir Dogs was pretty good. I haven't seen Jackie Brown, and I'm not really interested in checking it out.

Here's how I would rate his films:

1. Pulp Fiction

2. Kill Bill Vol 1 (very derivative, but I think that was the point)

3. Reservoir Dogs

4. Kill Bill Vol 2

5. Jackie Brown (cause I haven't seen it yet. Something tells me it'll be better than Vol 2).

KFS

[Guest Ministry88]

A very odd thing just happened: I began watching KILL BILL, vol 1 on DVD for the first time (after seeing it once when it first came out in the theaters and being somewhat impressed) and I couldn't get through it! I nearly fell asleep, and was almost offended. It really hit me like a ton of bricks after the umpteenth movie in-joke/reference: Tarantino is the ultimate postmodern con artist. He's not so much an artist as an assembler. I used to think he made his influences his own in his films but KILL BILL really pushes it. I mean, does the Shawscope tag at the beginning add ANYTHING to the film? Or Daryl Hannah's THRILLER-inspired eye patch? Or the Lone wolf and cub arterial spray? Good for you Quentin! You've seen Sonny Chiba movies, Gordon Liu flicks, Brian DePalma films, Star Trek, Sergio Leone films, etc etc etc. I've seen them too, and so have thousands of other film fans. What makes you so special?

The problem with this film is it has no center, no soul. It's just a big mush of previous cinema put in a postmodern blender. To me Quentin represents what is wrong with postmodernism and our current dilemma inherent in the decadence of Western art and civilization: it creates this weird, self-referential, artificial reality so far entrenched with previous texts and art that it's hard to tell what's real or original anymore. Cleverness and gimmick value are heralded for originality. The best example of this is the scene where Thurman (or the "blood spattered bride" -- ooh, Quentin, you are so smart, you've seen Spanish horror! WOW!) refers to Julie Dreyfus's character as " a woman you'd see in Star Trek." Tarantino is rightly assuming a culture suckled on inbred media and mass-produced art will understand the reference, a reference to a character type on a TV show, not even a type of person that exists in the real world. The film is so removed from any kind of organic human reality it's really insufferable for anyone aware of their soul. Here I really do have to agree with the radical French sociologist Jean Baudrillard, who declared reality dead in the postmodernist age because mass produced art has completely penetrated our everyday reality, blurring the lines between signs (art that represents reality) and reality itself. So the violence in the film to me is truly inhuman. Not only is it purely aesthetic, its aestheticism is rife with deja vu of previous, better, unpretentious films, making it seem doubly redundant and hollow. KILL BILL's violence is far more sickening to me than more controversial films like LAST HOUSE ON THE LEFT or SALO: those films' scenes of violence had humanity and heartbreak, and said something about the horror of interpersonal violence and its effects (SALO especially, as it also brilliantly commented on exactly the type of inhumanity produced by a mass media capitalist society as I'm talking about here).

Perhaps the audience reaction to this film is the most telling of all, however. This film came out when I was in college and I'll tell you the hipsters were eating out of Quentin's hands. They were amazed to read on the internet about the film's influences, especially about how obscure they were. It seems these days originality is gauged by how obscure your sources you steal from are, not from a deep spiritual need for personal expression and revelations reaped from deep introspection.

Now I'm not saying every film has to be LA STRADA or ANDREI RUBLEV. Hell, I'm a huge fan of horror and cult films and have written extensively on them. But at least films like THE STREET FIGHTER were unpretentious and didn't try to be anything they weren't. And to say KILL BILL isn't pretentious is wrong in my opinion. Just look at the pitifully manufactured scenes of "emotion" like when Sonny Chiba presents Thurman with the sword. Quentin's emotional infancy is hilarious and transparent: he expects us to care about characters that are not only stereotypical, but are often only self-conscious references to other films! Sorry Quentin, can't have your cake and eat it too.

Well, I'm off to dust off my copy of STREET FIGHTER, I'm in need of some authenticity...

[Guest Markgway]

Wow, brilliant dissection, Ministry. I agree with you entirely, and have been trying to put into words for ages what you just wrote so elloquently.

[Guest limubai2000]

Interesting you put this today, last night I watched the QT interview with Jet Li on the R1 Hero disk. I thought to myself QT is such a tool, he doesn't ask any good questions, only talks about Miramax Jet Li films completely forgetting classics like Shaolin Temple, OUATIC or anything Miramax doesn't own, looks hideous - fat, waving hands everywhere, not dressed anywhere near appropriately, and I'd swear he was high or on something for this interview.

He wasted a great opportunity.

I only enjoy Kill Bill for the fight scenes, you are correct there isn't much of a soul in there. He is a hack con artist. I can understand the movie as an homage, but really if he wanted to do that the movie would have a soul like a Kurosawa film or Dragon Gate or something.

Ironic because on the same disk, Zhang sasys in his interview that the Jet Li vs Donnie Yen fight in Hero was an homage to old school wuxia films with a twist (the fight in their minds), and that to me comes across as a genuine homage whereas Kill Bill does not. Interesting to see that time hasn't been kind to the Kill Bill films even for me.

[KyFi]

Excellent, excellent post, Ministry 88. I too found the Kill Bill movies completely cold and soulless---hipster cinematic fast food whose only purpose was to show us what movies QT really liked enough to imitate.

I really like some of the newer, big budget kf movies like CTHD, Hero, HOFD, etc., but to me its because those directors had real human emotions and themes to communicate along with the influence of their favorite kf movies.

I find more heart and soul in a 2nd rate Chang Cheh movie than I did in Kill Bill. And that's not an exagerration, because I watch a LOT of 2nd rate CC movies, over and over again :lol :

[Guest Reincarnation Of Thundering Mantis]

I feel the same way and have tried to say this before. But Ministry has said it better.

[Guest teako170]

Hmmm, a most meatiest of threads. Plenty to digest and even more to further expand on but I shant go in to deeply a subject that is reflective not just of QT's films (or films in general) but the art world as a whole -- or for that matter, society, which over the last few decades has become "soulless" through mass commercialization, etc-etc-etc.

Instead, let me play devil's advocate and just focus on this one single film. KB is what I consider fluff-fu. It has a very comic book feel (and that's not a negative as I'm big supporter of the comic book industry) and not to be taken for anything more. What I applaud QT for, in this film, is his indoctrination of the countless cinematic references. Yes, as limubai mentioned, he could have used more soulful material (like a Kurosawa film) in his attempt to pay homage to the genre but he is first and foremost a fanboy and used films he's grown an affection for over the years.

As Ministry88 states ('You've seen Sonny Chiba movies, Gordon Liu flicks, Brian DePalma films, Star Trek, Sergio Leone films, etc. etc. etc. I've seen them too, and so have thousands of other film fans') Indeed thousands have but, on the other hand, millions have not. A friend of mine (who is a very smart chap) was completely lost in KB until I pointed out the track suit and what its reference was, and then the eye-patch and then the music, and then who Gordon was and how he once fought the character he was playing in KB2. He then began to "get it."

I think one of the greatest tools a storyteller can use in his art (be it cinema, poem, novel) is to incorporate cinematic and/or literary references. I have done this in all my scripts and when I find a screenwriter throwing in some kernels of extra info and I get it, it makes the experience that much greater.

We've all read Shakespeare, Plato, etc. I was always lost in such works when I was younger. I then began to realize that in order to appreciate one specific work, one needs to have prior knowledge of previous works. I believe the artist succeeds when they inspire their recipient to seek out further works; which in turn makes them seek out even more. Art is an ever expanding entity. We can never grasp it all in a lifetime but the more we study, the longer our white beards and eyebrows grow (to use a martial arts film analogy).

Back to KB. Hopefully his obscure/obtuse references have made some viewers seek out a Sergio Leone film or a Shaw Brothers film. And from there, who knows where they'll go.

I enjoyed your post immensely Ministry and I certainly agree with what you have said. I just wanted to point out that while KB is a soulless piece of celluloid, it will hopefully yield some beneficial fruit.

Fluff-fu. Only made in America

[Guest limubai2000]

Hmmm, a most meatiest of threads. Plenty to digest and even more to further expand on but I shant go in to deeply a subject that is reflective not just of QT's films (or films in general) but the art world as a whole -- or for that matter, society, which over the last few decades has become "soulless" through mass commercialization, etc-etc-etc.

I competely agree with that. Kill Bill would be a symptom for sure.