No Third "Fantastic Four"

[Secret Executioner]

My issue was more of the fact that some people feel the need to twist icons in order to make them fit a certain politically correct (on race, sexuality...). You mentionned a black Batman, but I say: instead of that, why not have a Black Lightning movie ? It could make a rather unknown superhero better known of the general public and you could show the ethnical diversity of the DC Universe (but you sure wouldn't make as much money as with Bats). The idea was more of showing the general public new things than to be critical concerning what an altered character would do. Concerning a black James Bond, I say: how about making him Indian instead ?

The only superhero where a racial/ethnic change has worked (to my knowledge) is Green Lantern (I heard of a Latin Spiderman and of an African-American Captain Marvel, but these didn't last really long - I think this black CM was actually to be a villain from a parallel world or something and that he would fight Superman). Everyone knows Hal Jordan, he's the original GL. But John Stewart, who was created later in the run of the seres, was an African-American character who would be part of the GL Corps and he also became popular in the late 1990s/early 2000s - actually, those who grew up with the Justice League/Justice League Unlimited cartoons were shocked to see Hal Jordan used in the movie as they assumed John Stewart was THE Green Lantern and didn't know of Hal Jordan.

Anyway, I agree that the actor will have to be judged on his performance and I'm sure it would be impossible to have a more annoying performance than the Torch from the last 2 FF movies - even worse than Chris O'Donnell in Batman & Robin.

[AlbertV]

Okay, I see where GH is getting at...why not bring the black superheroes on the screen as well? I totally agree...Luke Cage is getting the Netflix series treatment for next year so thats some good news.

There's nothing wrong with putting a modern day spin on certain characters, but why not bring these superheroes IN ADDITION to them? I for one have been waiting for a Black Panther movie for quite some time now. I can see Black Vulcan appear in the Justice League movie...at least Falcon will be in Captain America: The Winter Soldier...different outfit, but same concept.

[Tex Killer]

There's nothing wrong with putting a modern day spin on certain characters,

If that "modern day spin" includes changing colour of skin I disagree. I am not racist but no way I am buying black torch. Because I did read comic as a kid. If not read comics of FF movies would not interest me at all but as they do I want characters look as much as possible to original appearance.

Neither I would watch movie where muhammed ali or malcolm x are modern day spinned to milkfaces...

[Secret Executioner]

Okay, I see where GH is getting at...why not bring the black superheroes on the screen as well? I totally agree...Luke Cage is getting the Netflix series treatment for next year so thats some good news.

Exactly my point. Superhero movies sometimes feature not just one superhero, but actually a couple (War Machine and Black Widow in Iron Man 2 for instance). How about including lesser known heroes along with the big guns ?

I for one have been waiting for a Black Panther movie for quite some time now. I can see Black Vulcan appear in the Justice League movie...at least Falcon will be in Captain America: The Winter Soldier...different outfit, but same concept.

It's Black Lightning, sir. Black Vulcan is from the Super Friends cartoons (but it's pretty much the same character, not sure why the name was changed though).

Cyborg is heavily featured in the animated DC movies. Perhaps they could use him in live-action films as well ? Would be nice, plus it's a very interesting character.

[Drunken Monk]

If that "modern day spin" includes changing colour of skin I disagree. I am not racist but no way I am buying black torch. Because I did read comic as a kid. If not read comics of FF movies would not interest me at all but as they do I want characters look as much as possible to original appearance.

Neither I would watch movie where muhammed ali or malcolm x are modern day spinned to milkfaces...

See, I just don't understand that logic. I read Fantastic Four growing up and The Human Torch, to me, is a character...a personality. The colour of his skin doesn't matter a single bit as long as the character's traits are portrayed well.

Look at the comics themselves. The artwork has evolved over the years. It's like refusing to recognize War Machine because you love the original Iron Man. It doesn't make sense.

And talking about white washing Malcolm X is comparing apples to oranges. Malcolm X existed. He was a real human being. Johnny Storm has never been real. He's been a character open to interpretation by dozens or artists over the years. Why not treat the films the same way?

[Tex Killer]

See, I just don't understand that logic. I read Fantastic Four growing up and The Human Torch, to me, is a character...a personality. The colour of his skin doesn't matter a single bit as long as the character's traits are portrayed well.

Look at the comics themselves. The artwork has evolved over the years. It's like refusing to recognize War Machine because you love the original Iron Man. It doesn't make sense.

War Machine I do not know was he ever featured in comics, so without that knowledge I can say he was dull character brought to screen because scriptwriters were too lame to bring any decent characters from comic to movie.Maybe they wanted to attract afro-american audience too, I do not know but whatever... All 3 iron man movies suffered from lack of decent villain and War Machine as so-so hero did not help in that department.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3661/3554467450_5188d40588.jpg

[Secret Executioner]

All 3 iron man movies suffered from lack of decent villain

Agreed, Whiplash and Mandarin could have been MUCH better in those films. I hope IM4 will have Shellhead fight other bad guys than bad scientists...

[Drunken Monk]

War Machine I do not know was he ever featured in comics, so without that knowledge I can say he was dull character brought to screen because scriptwriters were too lame to bring any decent characters from comic to movie.Maybe they wanted to attract afro-american audience too, I do not know but whatever... All 3 iron man movies suffered from lack of decent villain and War Machine as so-so hero did not help in that department.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3661/3554467450_5188d40588.jpg

I think you missed my point. War Machine was, indeed, in the comics and was quite well thought out but I was basically saying you can't turn your nose up at the evolution of imaginary characters. It doesn't make sense.

Batman got a female Robin, Nick Fury went from white to black. There's a black Spider Man. Hell, there's a black Captain America.

Characters should evolve as culture evolves. You might not call it racism to not want a black Human Torch but it certainly says something about your cultural acceptance. But then, you also use the term "Afro American," a phrase that was deemed entirely offensive and inappropriate about a decade ago.

Johnny Storm will always be, for the most part, white. We're not losing anything from seeing a black incarnation as he'll immediately go back to being white in the comics and that's where the basis for the universe exists.

[yojimbo]

Yojimbo I was not aware of that Nick Fury issue, I have not touched marvel comic in last 10 years except re-re-reading secret wars hardcover collection...Interesting...

GHw I did hear from some sources directors cut is better of DD but I was so disappointed of "original" I do not want to check out..I seriously doubt even some improvement would not make me like it but that I will never know...

Better to read the orginal source material they did a poor job of copying from. Read Frank Miller's Born again storyline from Daredevil. Or just track down and read the entire run he did. That is what the movie should have been.

Biggest annoyance in that movie. They decide to fight in front of kids in a playground. Way to keep your identies a secret.

DC and Marvel have been trying to diversify their roster of heroes. Still not many asians though. They keep getting cast as ninjas.

[Tex Killer]

I think you missed my point. War Machine was, indeed, in the comics and was quite well thought out but I was basically saying you can't turn your nose up at the evolution of imaginary characters. It doesn't make sense.

Batman got a female Robin, Nick Fury went from white to black. There's a black Spider Man. Hell, there's a black Captain America.

Characters should evolve as culture evolves. You might not call it racism to not want a black Human Torch but it certainly says something about your cultural acceptance. But then, you also use the term "Afro American," a phrase that was deemed entirely offensive and inappropriate about a decade ago.

Johnny Storm will always be, for the most part, white. We're not losing anything from seeing a black incarnation as he'll immediately go back to being white in the comics and that's where the basis for the universe exists.

Ok, maybe I am too much oldskool but I will not accept those characters turn from white to black..

Soon(in few centuries)propably most americans will be black or shades of that to lighter but that is still not excuse to change characters origin...or is it?

Ohhh it is...I forgot slavery(muslim made slavery is never talked about), racism, agreements in united nations:cry::cry:

White have eternal debts to pay...

[Secret Executioner]

DC and Marvel have been trying to diversify their roster of heroes. Still not many asians though. They keep getting cast as ninjas.

One of the many incarnations of Batgirl (not sure what her name is), Jubilee, Katana - maybe Psylocke, though I'm not too sure. That's all I can think of.

[Secret Executioner]

Batman got a female Robin, Nick Fury went from white to black. There's a black Spider Man. Hell, there's a black Captain America.

There have been a couple of female versions of The Flash too, as well as a female Joker (like the female Robin, these characters were in alternate continuities though). I think there's also been a female Two-Face, but I could be thinking of Harvey Dent's daughter Duela.

[Drunken Monk]

Ok, maybe I am too much oldskool but I will not accept those characters turn from white to black..

Soon(in few centuries)propably most americans will be black or shades of that to lighter but that is still not excuse to change characters origin...or is it?

Ohhh it is...I forgot slavery(muslim made slavery is never talked about), racism, agreements in united nations:cry::cry:

White have eternal debts to pay...

I imagine that will be a reason to change character origins, yes. Why? Because, as America's primary skin colour gets darker, culture will change with it. We will no longer have an inherent White Privilege running through the western world or, at least, not as much of it.

White people have a natural leg up in this country because we've kept people of colour down for years. Yes, through slavery but through many other channels as well.

And that's still a problem today. We're desperate to keep every white...like it matters. Like a black Human Torch will tip the scale in "their" favour. A black Human Torch isn't payback for slavery. It's simply allowing for equality, in a tiny pocket of pop culture, to be somewhat recognized.

It's a step forward. A step forward we need because these "old school" mentalities are ingrained with racism. Something we need to eradicate.

[Drunken Monk]

There have been a couple of female versions of The Flash too, as well as a female Joker (like the female Robin, these characters were in alternate continuities though). I think there's also been a female Two-Face, but I could be thinking of Harvey Dent's daughter Duela.

Yep and there's been female incarnations of Ghost Rider, Venom, Captain America and Silver Surfer in the Marvel universe.

[Tex Killer]

I imagine that will be a reason to change character origins, yes. Why? Because, as America's primary skin colour gets darker, culture will change with it. We will no longer have an inherent White Privilege running through the western world or, at least, not as much of it.

White people have a natural leg up in this country because we've kept people of colour down for years. Yes, through slavery but through many other channels as well.

And that's still a problem today. We're desperate to keep every white...like it matters. Like a black Human Torch will tip the scale in "their" favour. A black Human Torch isn't payback for slavery. It's simply allowing for equality, in a tiny pocket of pop culture, to be somewhat recognized.

It's a step forward. A step forward we need because these "old school" mentalities are ingrained with racism. Something we need to eradicate.

"step forward" means sometimes 2 steps back. For example in sweden where 20 year go rate of people who can read and write was about 100% has now dropped because of "immigrants"...Have you EVER heard speech from those who serious power africans or arabs should be change their ways to fit into western world?No, because white fears them because if not then racism.Whites have to change. If not, that is fear of strangers or foreigners. Islam is religion of peace.

I do not care are you black or white, drunk. All are equal but in my life those who made trouble have been in higher% other than white or far east.

[Drunken Monk]

"step forward" means sometimes 2 steps back. For example in sweden where 20 year go rate of people who can read and write was about 100% has now dropped because of "immigrants"...Have you EVER heard speech from those who serious power africans or arabs should be change their ways to fit into western world?No, because white fears them because if not then racism.Whites have to change. If not, that is fear of strangers or foreigners. Islam is religion of peace.

I do not care are you black or white, drunk. All are equal but in my life those who made trouble have been in higher% other than white or far east.

Pity it came to this talk, we are here only for movies.

It's not a pity at all. The forum thrives on discussion, with many threads going off topic.

But you see, your argument doesn't match up. You're saying Black people have caused the highest amount of trouble in your life and, because of that, the Human Torch shouldn't be black.

Unless Michael B. Jordan caused trouble in your life, this argument doesn't work...at all. You're lumping an entire race of people into one category and them damning them for your own narrow mindedness.

The Nazi Party was largely made up of Germans. Ben Affleck has German heritage and yet we're not protesting him being Batman based upon his cultural history.

[Secret Executioner]

Gotta admit Tex Killer has some points, though I don't think they're really relevant in this conversation - we're talking of a guy who will play a superhero that set himself on fire, not the guy who is going to rule the country, make laws or have an impact in international politics.

Yep and there's been female incarnations of Ghost Rider, Venom, Captain America and Silver Surfer in the Marvel universe.

Never heard of these versions, but again, I'm no Marvel specialist - I'm much more of a DC fan actually.

[Drunken Monk]

Never heard of these versions, but again, I'm no Marvel specialist - I'm much more of a DC fan actually.

That's cool. I was always a Marvel fan, personally. For some reason, my dad really disliked DC, which is somewhat ironic as, as I get older, I find myself more and more interested in Batman.

[Tex Killer]

It's not a pity at all. The forum thrives on discussion, with many threads going off topic.

But you see, your argument doesn't match up. You're saying Black people have caused the highest amount of trouble in your life and, because of that, the Human Torch shouldn't be black.

Unless Michael B. Jordan caused trouble in your life, this argument doesn't work...at all. You're lumping an entire race of people into one category and them damning them for your own narrow mindedness.

The Nazi Party was largely made up of Germans. Ben Affleck has German heritage and yet we're not protesting him being Batman based upon his cultural history.

Considering nationwide, from statistic published by government blacks make most crime and high in unemployment. Middle-east and north-africa follow close.

Yes,white have caused trouble too but I am not saying they should be turned black. One should be dedicated to origins. If can`t do that, bring on new character to arena.

Nazis were good with muslims, in fact few years ago they did advertise hitler shampoo in turkey ( you can find that easily by youtube) and mein kapmf in middle-east if not best at least goodseller all the time.

White mans "racism, prejudice" has nothing to do with FACT blacks and arabs do more crime.

Hell, according to usa justice department there is in jail for sexual crimes 6 times more blacks than white. If we want to fantasy blacks get sentenced more easily than white and give some mercy to statistic they are still overpopulated in your prison blocks.

[yojimbo]

One of the many incarnations of Batgirl (not sure what her name is), Jubilee, Katana - maybe Psylocke, though I'm not too sure. That's all I can think of.

Cast as ninjas in movies. Should have been more specific.

Even in comic books you don't have many asian male characters. Although Jim Lee will tell you Warblade is Korean. He is half alien, has green hair and is named Reno Bryce. Along with never having been depicted with a tan. Could have fooled me.

Psylocke's double that was living out her life after going through the Siege Perilous and being corrupted by the Mandarin was asian. Jubilee - real name Jubiliation Lee.

[Secret Executioner]

I actually think there were Muslim soldiers in the Third Reich armies - or as part of a special section, not sure which. And you're right, Mein Kampf has been a bestseller in countries like Turkey (and it was like 10 years ago, not in the 1940s) - yet in Western Europe, eventual reprints (with comments and explanations, so not the raw original text) cause controversies and it's illegal to own a copy in some countries...

Anyway, no matter what, I just wish we'd go back to discuss the Fantastic Four movies.

Think a CGI Thing would look better than what we got in the last movies ? (I think THAT should be a source of discussion)

Who is to be the main villain in this new effort ? (hoping they don't fuck up Dr. Doom like they fucked up Mandarin in IM3...)

[Tex Killer]

I actually think there were Muslim soldiers in the Third Reich armies - or as part of a special section, not sure which

I think there were some agreements of destroying jewish. Hitler also vegetarian and believed nation should be kept pure. Same thoughts with muslims partly..

Back to topic I think they should bring to galactus for new FF movie. Or even better, make decent Secret Wars

[Drunken Monk]

Considering nationwide, from statistic published by government blacks make most crime and high in unemployment. Middle-east and north-africa follow close.

Yes,white have caused trouble too but I am not saying they should be turned black. One should be dedicated to origins. If can`t do that, bring on new character to arena.

Nazis were good with muslims, in fact few years ago they did advertise hitler shampoo in turkey ( you can find that easily by youtube) and mein kapmf in middle-east if not best at least goodseller all the time.

White mans "racism, prejudice" has nothing to do with FACT blacks and arabs do more crime.

Hell, according to usa justice department there is in jail for sexual crimes 6 times more blacks than white. If we want to fantasy blacks get sentenced more easily than white and give some mercy to statistic they are still overpopulated in your prison blocks.

I'm sorry but your argument is stupid. What has black crime statistics got to do with you not wanting Johnny Storm to be black? You're not proving a point here. You're reciting ridiculous statistics about NOTHING.

I don't even want to get into how poverty leads to crime and that black people have been historically forced into poverty. Why the hell you're bringing Muslims into it, I don't know. I'd be content with The Human Torch being Muslim too.

Ok, so you make a valid point about origins. You think each culture and race should respect their own origins, right? There's nothing wrong with CULTURAL pride but racial pride veers a little too close to racism for my liking.

Johnny Storm is not a white, cultural icon. I know many would argue otherwise, but he's not. Hell, his name implies something beyond race...The HUMAN Torch. He's not The CAUCASIAN Torch.

We are humans...all of us. He is a character born of imagination. Saying he can't be black is like saying they shouldn't hire an actor who, in reality, can't burst into flames at will. In our imaginations these characters can be anything and anyone.

I accept Johnny Storm as black, white, Asian or Krull (see what I did there?). It doesn't matter. It's you who's boxing him in as a white only character and then using bat-shit crazy politics and shampoo into it to hide your obvious prejudices.

And just to clarify, if you judge an entire people on a select few, especially if those select few are considered "bad," that is a prejudice. That is racism.

[Secret Executioner]

Back to topic I think they should bring to galactus for new FF movie. Or even better, make decent Secret Wars

Not sure what the Secret Wars arc is about (I was gonna talk about the arc where superheroes are supposed to turn themselves in, but that would be Civil War actually), but having Galactus (and Silver Surfer) could be nice - the Galactus arc is a great part of the classic (mid-1960s) run of the series.

[Drunken Monk]

Anyway, no matter what, I just wish we'd go back to discuss the Fantastic Four movies.

Think a CGI Thing would look better than what we got in the last movies ? (I think THAT should be a source of discussion)

Who is to be the main villain in this new effort ? (hoping they don't fuck up Dr. Doom like they fucked up Mandarin in IM3...)

The producers, in a press statement, said they weren't against making Doctor Doom a woman but they haven't set anything in stone.

Since this is a reboot and they want to do it right, I think we'll see Doctor Doom as the main villain. A male Doctor Doom at that. Although, I can't believe Philip Seymour Hoffman passed away. He would have made a phenomenal Mole Man!

As for The Thing, if they manage to use CGI that looks as good as The Hulk in "The Avengers" it could be awesome. With Rocket Raccoon, Groot and Iron Man all looking pretty damn fantastic through CGI, I think we could really be in for something special.