Most over-rated kung fu actor

[venoms5]

I say Bruce is overrated in terms of his MOVIES. I don't like them and can't understand why they're fawned over so much other than the fact that he's dead. Like most actors they attain a God-like stature once they're dead. I am only speaking for myself. It bothers me that on some selected docs Bruce's movies are put on this pedestal and then clips of other kung fu movies are shown and yet these are referred to as shoddy and or cheesy productions...oh, and badly dubbed is mentioned. Are Bruce Lee's movies dubbed good? I don't think so. And some of those clips weren't even KUNG FU movies but swordplay films. As I mentioned elsewhere here Bruce the man was great, no denying that but IMO, his movies left MUCH to be desired.

[kingofkungfu2002]

Of course Bruce's movies may look a little dated now, but at the time Bruce raised the bar and set new standards when it came to displaying martial arts on the big screen...People hadn't seen anything like Bruce before.

He also helped bring it into the mainstream and paved the way for others to follow.

[Tosh]

While I believe Bruce Lee is not overratted I will agree to an extent about his movies, in 1971, the same year you had Fists of Fury come out, you had movies like Duel of Fists and The Duel and some other very good MA movies at the same time, Bruce Lee was the one that gained popularity amongst the Western viewers.

[venoms5]

Of course Bruce's movies may look a little dated now, but at the time Bruce raised the bar and set new standards when it came to displaying martial arts on the big screen...People hadn't seen anything like Bruce before.

He also helped bring it into the mainstream and paved the way for others to follow.

VENGEANCE! (the first of the Early Republican Era martial arts films) paved the way for Bruce and the others that followed. That movie and CHINESE BOXER came out before Bruce's films. I don't pay any attention to them being dated (if you look at them in the context of when they were made in terms of the action if that's what you mean) but his movies look no different than any countless others being released around the same time. The Shaw Brothers movies looked better because they had superior production values and technicians behind them. Bruce was already a proven commodity in America and was already popular in HK because of this. He brought the American style of action with him and this is one reason I don't care much for his films. There are just as many great movies (and better) made during this period but Mr. Lee's always has the limelight amongst casual viewers or those who haven't been exposed to the genre outside of his movies.

[kingofkungfu2002]

But Bruce's choreography was way ahead of films made around the same time, that's what I'm saying. You can't tell me that the fights in 'Vengeance' and 'Chinese Boxer' etc match the ones in Bruce's movies.

[Chinatown Kid]

But Bruce's choreography was way ahead of films made around the same time, that's what I'm saying. You can't tell me that the fights in 'Vengeance' and 'Chinese Boxer' etc match the ones in Bruce's movies.

Exactly, Bruce's unparalelled fighting prowess/screen fighting skill is what made him the hottest show business property in the Far East at the time, not because they had superior production values and technicians behind them like Shaws did. What made his fights stand out was the realism and skill behind them, which hadn't been seen like that before in Martial arts films. Bruce became huge on the Manderin film circuit and Asia first, before he got his big co-production with the American studio Warner Brothers. Before he went to HK he was getting doors slammed in his face in Hollywood like when the role in Kung Fu went to David Carradine instead of him, weather caused by racism, Bruce's broken english accent, or whatever.

[venoms5]

You are forgetting GREEN HORNET, LONGSTREET, MARLOWE. He was already well known amongst Hollywood then before he returned to HK for BIG BOSS.

And yes, the fights don't match the Bruce films. He doesn't allow himself to be shown as anything less than invincible which is boring to me. Just like every US action movie after it. Those other films choreo was far more creative, IMO. The finale of BOXER FROM SHANTUNG beats anything in any Bruce Lee flick, IMO. There's a level of excitement and drama that's missing from Lee's movies. He spends more time mugging for the camera after delivering a punch or a kick than the actual fight. I need to see a hero in peril to enable some form of emotional involvement in the film. It seems most people don't but not me. I need to believe that the good guy can be hurt at any time. Scratching his face or putting a footprint on his bright yellow jumpsuit doesn't cut it for me.

Again, Bruce the man was awesome and a one of a kind just his movies do nothing for me and I feel had he lived, they wouldn't be looked upon with as much reverence as they are now.

[thekfc]

I need to see a hero in peril to enable some form of emotional involvement in the film.

I hear u.

[vengeanceofhumanlanterns]

"He spends more time mugging for the camera after delivering a punch or a kick than the actual fight. I need to see a hero in peril to enable some form of emotional involvement in the film. It seems most people don't but not me. I need to believe that the good guy can be hurt at any time. Scratching his face or putting a footprint on his bright yellow jumpsuit doesn't cut it for me."

No and yes. Bruce Lee is definitely pretentious. Also there is little doubt he'll lose in the end in his films, but only for those who've seen them. He dose also lived up to his abilities on film.

[vonhumboldtfleisher]

It really doesn't help that the supposedly badass villains he's set up to fight in the (anti-)climax tend to be elderly, disabled, or - if you'll excuse the inverted racism - caucasian.

[gravedigger666]

You are forgetting GREEN HORNET, LONGSTREET, MARLOWE. He was already well known amongst Hollywood then before he returned to HK for BIG BOSS.

And yes, the fights don't match the Bruce films. He doesn't allow himself to be shown as anything less than invincible which is boring to me. Just like every US action movie after it. Those other films choreo was far more creative, IMO. The finale of BOXER FROM SHANTUNG beats anything in any Bruce Lee flick, IMO. There's a level of excitement and drama that's missing from Lee's movies. He spends more time mugging for the camera after delivering a punch or a kick than the actual fight. I need to see a hero in peril to enable some form of emotional involvement in the film. It seems most people don't but not me. I need to believe that the good guy can be hurt at any time. Scratching his face or putting a footprint on his bright yellow jumpsuit doesn't cut it for me.

Again, Bruce the man was awesome and a one of a kind just his movies do nothing for me and I feel had he lived, they wouldn't be looked upon with as much reverence as they are now.

Exactly..there is no question about Bruces skill or speed,he would have made thunderball look like snail.But only in end of big boss there was OK match,watching bruce kick the shit out of 1000000 white belt karatekas does not make me fan.Bruce may remain in history as king of kungfu but I would take any chiang&lung movie over lees one.

[Chinatown Kid]

You are forgetting GREEN HORNET, LONGSTREET, MARLOWE. He was already well known amongst Hollywood then before he returned to HK for BIG BOSS.

And yes, the fights don't match the Bruce films. He doesn't allow himself to be shown as anything less than invincible which is boring to me. Just like every US action movie after it. Those other films choreo was far more creative, IMO. The finale of BOXER FROM SHANTUNG beats anything in any Bruce Lee flick, IMO. There's a level of excitement and drama that's missing from Lee's movies. He spends more time mugging for the camera after delivering a punch or a kick than the actual fight. I need to see a hero in peril to enable some form of emotional involvement in the film. It seems most people don't but not me. I need to believe that the good guy can be hurt at any time. Scratching his face or putting a footprint on his bright yellow jumpsuit doesn't cut it for me.

Again, Bruce the man was awesome and a one of a kind just his movies do nothing for me and I feel had he lived, they wouldn't be looked upon with as much reverence as they are now.

No I'm not forgetting The Green Hornet, which ran for only one season and was cancelled due to poor ratings and had Bruce playing nothing more than a sidekick and servant to the star. True he had a small part in the film Marlowe as Winslow Wong where he had a memorable scene destroying James Garners office. And remember, his guest appearance on Longstreet hadn't even aired before he went to Thailand to film The Big Boss. He did have a meager bit of notoriety from these tv series and one part in the Marlowe movie, but he could not get a starring role nor did he become really famous until he made the movies for Golden Harvest in HK. True Bruce always ending up winning in his fights like most stars heroes do in their movies, but he was not totally invincible in his fights. Chuck Norris was actually kicking his ass in the first part of their fight in Way of the Dragon, and he also took some punishment/injuries in his other films. Now he doesn't bleed all over the place and lose gallons of blood and keep on fighting like in alot of Chang Cheh movies, but hey I like those movies too. Still I respect your opinion and that Lee's movies don't do it for you, I understand everybody doesn't like the same thing.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

I can only second what Venoms5 and gravedigger 666 said!

[venoms5]

What I'm trying to say is that Bruce was already known in America and HK audience loved that one of their own was able to feature in foreign product. Doesn't matter how many seasons the show ran for, he was noticed for it. But his US influences are evident in his action movies in his HK films.

[Bravery]

I can only second what Chinatownkid. Besides, even if he was well known over here, and he wasn't, everyone has to start somewhere.

Also, it sometimes ruins it for me when the supposed baaadass in a film gets to the main villian and it takes 5 whole minutes of getting his ass kicked before the hero/star realizes what he must do to win, and barely gets out. Bruce was a badass in his movies for a reason and thats part of what I loved about his movies; you know who wins.

You Bruce haters need to come to the light,lol. Venom come and soak up this sun

[vonhumboldtfleisher]

I second what that Vonhumboldtfleisher guy says. He seems really smart.

[gravedigger666]

Am pretty sure nobody here hates Bruce but his films just does not deliver if you want to see great fights instead of one man kicking/punching down army of weaklings.

[kingofkungfu2002]

Am pretty sure nobody here hates Bruce but his films just does not deliver if you want to see great fights instead of one man kicking/punching down army of weaklings.

If you call flailing arms and legs great fights

[vonhumboldtfleisher]

Still better than watching a guy flex his muscles, do the same kick ninety times, and then beat up a one-handed, fifty-five year old man.

[Chinatown Kid]

LOL, your full of shit Von.

[vonhumboldtfleisher]

LOL, your full of shit Von.

I second what Chinatown Kid says. His arguments are thoughtful, coherent, and well backed-up with evidence.

[Chinatown Kid]

[The Amazing Psycho Per]

I second what Chinatown Kid says. His arguments are thoughtful, coherent, and well backed-up with evidence.

LMAO!!!

When I saw this thread about most over rated kung fu actor, I knew it would turn out that way: a debate about Bruce Lee. It is a debate that will never end because those Bruce lovers are blinded by the legendary status of the men. You see, Bruce became larger then life, just like other stars who died young like James Dean and Marilyn Monroe. Those people are all look up too because they died in theyre prime, and people always wonder what more thy could've accomplish. Well the thing is that like a shooting star, we catched them at theyre brightest moment, and fortunately for them they didn't have to suffer a decline.

Even then, Bruce's popularity is undeniable and so are his martial arts skill. Wether you like him or not, he was far superior to most of the Shaw stable, at least at the time. BUT, most of his movies are painfully boring and the choreo. is uninventive. Yes Bruce paved the way but It doesn't make his movies more exciting. And his historical importance doesn't justify going over the top about him, I mean Citizen Kane is an important movie but you don't have to feel ashamed to say it's boring... And I don't see anyone here practicing Kalaripayat because it's the ancestor of Kung Fu...

Bruce holds without a doubt an important place in Kung fu cinema history and had great skills and charisma, but yes, I think he's over rated, wich doesn't mean he was bad but that he is just perceived bigger that he actually was.

[theportlykicker]

Man, sometimes I wonder if these people calling Bruce's choreo "boring" or "dull" actually, you know, paid attention to the action in Bruce's films. His choreo was way ahead of it's time. No one else utilized realistic fight strategy in their choreo the way Bruce did.

A similar discussion about Bruce being overrated occurred on the SP Forum a while ago, but this guy summed up Bruce's strengths beautifully:

Choreography wise, he was heavily influenced by Samurai films. Jesse Glover(his first student) says that they would watch chanbara quite frequently and Bruce would always come up with some choreography idea or another and leave the screening room to practice it in the lobby. Well, No one watches a samurai movie and thinks "Well that Samurai didn't take enough damage". We just marvel at the beauty of his swordplay. It was the same way with Bruce Lee way back then.

Nobody gave a shit about the damage he was taking. Who wants to see Bruce Lee beaten up by chain kicking or whatever? People want him to be the tough guy. It was one of the first times that most people saw a TRUE martial artist being a bad ass on screen(most martial art stars back then were just actors trained by movie studio programs). I don't want to see him throwing meaningless combinations, dilly dallying with props, or playing patty cake with the Buddhist fists. All of that stuff can be awesome in the proper context, but it would only make a Bruce Lee film worse. Much like a samurai film, I just want to appreciate the raw beauty of his movements. I want to see the feints, the trapping, the way he closes the distance, how he flicks his back fist, the fighters psychology, the intensity, rage, and that overwhelming power, etc.

When I watch him, I'm watching a man transform a lifetime of training dedicated solely to turning the human body into a weapon, into one of the most amazing expressions of creative energy I've ever seen. Those fights are a glimpse of one man's truth. His characters wouldn't throw seven or eight punches then follow up with three or four kicks if the opponent was blocking each and every one. To them, that would be the dumbest thing in the world. They'd simply stop wasting their energy and try a different tactic. Bruce Lee was a one man show indeed. But that's the beauty of the thing. A one man show who made a measly five films, most of which are crap by conventional standards, is still hugely relevant to this very day. He changed more than the game. The guy basically changed the world (at least action movies, martial arts, & a shitload of people's lifestyles) with his devotion to gongfu. So yeah, he didn't take as much damage a Jackie Chan or whoever. But you know, who gives a shit. It's the same way with Lau Kar Leung. He didn't get beat on too often; nobody complains.

[The Amazing Psycho Per]

I don't know if youre refering to me, but I called his movies boring not his choreo. What I meant by his chorography being uninventive was more in the way that in my eyes, they are not very spectacular. It all comes down to personal tastes... But sure, Bruce's choreo. was better then anything produced at the time.