Shaolin Temple (1976)

[Guest teako170]

...or "Death Chambers" for the ol' timers

Got these two photos. I'm guessing they're from Shaw Screen or HK Movie News. I believe this might be some of the earliest photos of Kuo Chui and Chang Cheh together b-t-s (that I've seen). Would love to have larger photos of either of these. Paging Dr. 7...?

[KyFi]

Very cool--thanks for posting them.

[Guest Iron Boat]

Those are some great pics. Definitly looks like Death Chambers to me.

[Guest SBfan4life]

Thanks for the great pictures teako170 !!!

Christine

[Guest june]

Hello All,

Who do you thinks was teaching Fu Sheng "Tiger / Crane" during the Wang Lung Wei fight? The old man or Chi Kwan Chun???

[Guest Chinatown Kid]

My guess is Chi Kwan Chun, he felt sorry for Fu Sheng because the Old Monk refused to teach him any techniques and they were buddies that entered the temple together. That shadow on the wall looked like Chi as well.

[Guest june]

Chinatown Kid,

I thought it was the old man because he did acknowledge Fu Sheng & the camera pointed at him.

[Guest Chinatown Kid]

You may be right june, I was guessing anyway. I thought Chi felt sorry for Fu because he kept getting beat up by Wang Lung Wei in their sparring matches and the reason why he was secretly teaching him.

[Guest chen lung]

...the traitor within the temple.

[Guest Chinatown Kid]

I doubt it was the traitor Shaolin Monk character played by San Moo, he tried to have Fu Sheng and Chi Kwun Chun killed when they went threw wooden man alley so I believe he would be the last person to have helped Fu Sheng.

[Guest Tosh]

It was definetly the old monk in the kitchen, first he showed Fu Sheng how to split a log with his bare hands, then after he got beat up by Wang and walked in the kitchen they zoomed up on the monk's face, that's when he started training at night in the yard, plus Chi Kwun Chun a pretty tall guy, the guy training him in the ninja getup didn't look to big.

[HAZ]

Hi,

Been revisiting Chang Cheh's "Shaolin Cycle" & was wondering about the story of the temple's burning & the five ancestors. When I first saw these films, I didn't know that many of the characters were historcal. I think that the Five Ancestors of Cai Dezhong, Fang Dahong, Ma Chaoxing, Hu Dedi, Li Shikai come from a different legend of the temple's burning than Fong Sai Yuk, Wu Mei, etc...It was cool to see the two stories merge. One thing I am curious about is if Yan Yongchuen is a historical figure. Was she the founder of Wing Chun? Also, I can't find much online about Hu Heigan, who seems to be a re-occuring character from other Shaolin films. Does anyone know anything about him?

Thanks

h

[Chinatown Kid]

On your question about Wing Chun, the style orginated from a woman named Ng Mui, a Buddist nun in a Shaolin monastery in southern China. Ng Mui took as her student a young woman named Yim Wing Chun(The name means "beautiful springtime"). She taught her all she knew and after Ng Mui died, Yim Wing Chun carried on her style. In time this system, which had no name, became known as Wing Chun kung fu. I studied Wing chun for a short time in my teens before I later got into TKD.

[thekfc]

I too have been looking for info on Hu Hei Chien/Hu Wei Chien.

The only info I can find is this:

Hu "the kungfu brother" of Hung Xi-Kuan learn kung fu from Jee Shim and practice his art in the WENG CHUN TONG or EVER LASTING HALL of the Southern SHAOLIN /Weng Chun Tong of Nam Siu Lam Jee.

Jee Shim taught Hu and Hung in the Weng Chun Tong, and they went off to found Weng Chun and Hung Ga respectively. The Red Junk (boat), may have housed the Chi Shun system which became known Jee Shim (Chi Sim) Weng Chun Kuen and Ng Mui, Wing Chun system.

Wing Chun - most of us know about Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun - among the survivors of the Shaolin was a Buddhist nun named Ng Mui. Ng Mui was believed to have been the sole custodian of a streamlined, highly practical and effective martial arts developed within the temples. In turn, Ng Mui is said to have passed her knowledge onto her chosen disciple, a young girl named Yim Wing Chun. As Yim Wing Chun taught the system to others, it became known as Wing Chun.

Some say that the story of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun was merely a way to conceal the truth about the system's origins and the identities of the political rebels who truly developed it.

Other say that late in the 1600's, the Manchurians became concerned about the Siu Lam Temples' rebellious activities and their continual development of the fighting arts. Therefore, they sent spies (many of them Manchu military leaders) to infiltrate the rebels and learn the traditional Southern fist systems as taught secretly in the Temples. The rebel kung-fu masters, realizing this, clandestinely developed a new system that was two-fold in purpose: firstly, it had to be learned quickly and efficiently, and secondly, it had to be devastatingly effective against the existing fighting systems that the Manchus were learning and teaching to their soldiers. Thus, Wing Chun was born.

How much of this is true?

I am sure that someone with more info/knowledge will post/enlighten us.

There are a lot of history missing from that period because - The teaching of martial Arts at that time was outlawed & if the government caught any traitor/rebel, that "guilty" party was executed & the guilty party's family down to nine generations were hunted down and execute them as traitors as well. So a lot of what really happened during that time period is???????

[HAZ]

On your question about Wing Chun, the style orginated from a woman named Ng Mui, a Buddist nun in a Shaolin monastery in southern China. Ng Mui took as her student a young woman named Yim Wing Chun(The name means "beautiful springtime"). She taught her all she knew and after Ng Mui died, Yim Wing Chun carried on her style. In time this system, which had no name, became known as Wing Chun kung fu. I studied Wing chun for a short time in my teens before I later got into TKD.

Thanks for that. I thought that Yan Yongchuen could have been the mandarin name for Yim Wing Chun, but I guess not. In The film, Yan Youngchuen is the student of Ng Mui/ Wu Mei.

[KyFi]

Just one thing in general you've got to be careful about with Chinese martial arts history is understanding the difference between "martial lore" and real history. The Chinese, especially, have a fondness for crediting a style to a noble hero, a monk, an emperor, a great general---or someone "watching a crane fight a snake". Those stories sound a lot better than "the founder of our style was a nobody/brawler/criminal who was a very gifted fighter", which is probably a more likely origin of many styles.

I'm not saying all these legends are necessarily false, but just because a kung fu school or lineage tells a story about the founder of their style, or its relation to Shaolin temple, etc, doesn't mean that there's any real historical evidence to back up their claim.

Also, keep in mind that most Chinese were illiterate, and the educated people tended to look down on martial arts, and didn't spend much time recording their history. The net result is that when you start tracing the history of a style back more than a couple hundred years, it gets pretty hazy, and there's a lot of dubious claims out there.

[KyFi]

Thanks for that. I thought that Yan Yongchuen could have been the mandarin name for Yim Wing Chun, but I guess not. In The film, Yan Youngchuen is the student of Ng Mui/ Wu Mei.

No, I'm pretty sure you're correct that Yan Yongchuen is the Mandarin pronunciation of Yim Wing Chun.

[whitelotus]

The Hung Suen Wing Chun kung fu system dates back over 200 years to the Sil Lum Temple. As a result of the political atmosphere of the times, this branch of Wing Chun has never been taught outside it's direct lineage. Instead it was handed down in secrecy from family member to family member.

From 1644 to 1911, the Manchurians ruled China in a period known as the Qing Dynasty. Early in the 1700's, the Manchurians became concerned about the Sil Lum Temples' rebellious activities and their continued development of the fighting arts. Under the decision to eliminate the threat of these rebels and thier leaders, the Manchurians attempted to exterminate the Sil Lum monks to prevent them from spreading their martial arts skills and knowledge. Eventually, both Sil Lum Temples were destroyed and burned.

According to Huen Suen tradition, prior to the destruction of the temples, a comprehensive martial art system was developed and known as Wing Chun.Wing Chun was formulated through generations of Sil Lum knowledge. Wing Chun was conducted under a silent code. This meant that in order to prevent abuse, it was passed down to only a few chosen disciples and was never documented.

With such a hidden past, we now heavily rely on the direct teachings of the elders for historical material. As told by teacher to student, two Sil Lum monks escaped the Manchurians massacres and were able to keep the Wing Chun system alive. One of these monks was the twenty second generation Sil Lum grandmaster. Yat Chum Dai Si. The other monks name was Chueng Ng. Before his death, grandmaster Yat Chum Dai Si passed on his high level of Wing Chun knowledge to Chueng Ng.

In order to keep his identity and background a secret from the Manchurians,Chueng Ngjoined the Red Boat Opera Troupe. The name was given to the organisation of talented stage performers who travelled in red boats.

Accomplished in kung fu and gymnastics, they formed their own organisation and stage names, the Red Boar Opera was Cheung Ng's safest refuge.

Cheung Ng became known in the opera troupe as Tan Sao Ng (Spread out arm Ng) from his skillful of the Wing Chun manuever "tan sao" to subdue others during challenges. His level of skill allowed him to use "tan sao" move to represent one thousand moves. He demonstrated that a basic technique sych as "tan sao" must be fully understood, in concept and application, prior to the next thousand techniques. After learning the next thousand techniques they became one again.

Harsh Manchurian actions such distrust among the people that they resulted in the formation of underground organisations or secret societies such as The Haeven and Earth society and the White Lotus society. Within a secret society, the identity of the leaders, members and activities were only known to a few within the society itself.

One of the Red Boat Opera troupe actors by the name of Hung Gun Biu(Red Bandanna Biu), was a secret society leader and brought Tan Sao Ng into the organisation. The safety of the opera troupe combined with the security of secret society allowed Ng to spread his Wing Chun knowledge in confidence.

As a trusted leader, Hung Gun Biu one of Ng's clsest disciples. However in order to protect the systems origin and and the identities of Yat Dai Si and Tan Sao Ng a story was created.(Hence the Ng Mui bit)

in the story Ng Mui teaches the system to a girl named Yim Wing Chun who's name happens to carry a different meaning."Yim" can be translated to protect or prohibit. The term Wing Chun refers to the Sil Lum Wing Chun Tong(Always Spring hall). Thus Yim Wing Chun was a code meaning the secret art of the Sil Lum Wing Chun Hall.

The system was passed on to other opera troupe members who had the obligation of keeping the system's history a secret. Based on their individual understanding and degree of training in Wing Chun, these disciples, all previously trained in other martial art styles, may have passed on their skills with inherently different emphasis.

Hung Gun Biu's lineage followed tradition of to pass down the system to family members only who took the traditional and ceremonial vow of secrecy. The system's lineage shows that Hung Gun Biu taught his relative Chueng Gung who passed it down to his great nephew, Wang Ting who taught his son, Dr Wang Ming, of Saiquan, China who taught the entire system with it's original concepts to only 4 disciples.

[Chinatown Kid]

Haz your very welcome for the help but according to some other posters in this thread what I told you must have been one big lie. Sorry to give you false info if it was wrong, I was just going by the origins I have read in books about WC and Martial Arts and what I was told by my WC instructor.

[KyFi]

Haz your very welcome for the help but according to some other posters in this thread what I told you must have been one big lie. Sorry to give you false info if it was wrong, I was just going by the origins I have read in books about WC and Martial Arts and what I was told by my WC instructor.

Oh, I didn't mean to say that your history was a lie---I was just pointing out the difference between historical fact, and historical possibility.

For instance, with Wong Fei Hung, I believe there are birth and death records, there's recorded interviews with his wife, and students, pictures, I imagine there's a deed for his clinic, sales records from his clinic, etc.---there's lots of independant evidence as to his existence other than just his students telling about him via oral traditions.

On the other hand, whether Wing Chun was created by Ng Mui, and taught to Yim Wing Chun, or whether that story was a cover for something else---if there's no recorded evidence of those people being born, or dying, or where they lived, no photos(obviously), no Qing government census or officials mentioning them in their documents, no written interviews, and if they didn't write any books---then it's impossible to say with much certainty whether the story is true or not. It MIGHT be true, but the oral traditions of a kung fu style---that has a vested interest in making their ancestors look good---can't really be considered excellent objective historical evidence.

My advice when someone starts telling you about the history of their style is to say: "Fine, if that's completely true then please provide me with a source NOT from your kungfu lineage that corroborates it."

[HAZ]

I too have been looking for info on Hu Hei Chien/Hu Wei Chien.

The only info I can find is this:

Hu "the kungfu brother" of Hung Xi-Kuan learn kung fu from Jee Shim and practice his art in the WENG CHUN TONG or EVER LASTING HALL of the Southern SHAOLIN /Weng Chun Tong of Nam Siu Lam Jee.

Jee Shim taught Hu and Hung in the Weng Chun Tong, and they went off to found Weng Chun and Hung Ga respectively. The Red Junk (boat), may have housed the Chi Shun system which became known Jee Shim (Chi Sim) Weng Chun Kuen and Ng Mui, Wing Chun system.

Wing Chun - most of us know about Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun - among the survivors of the Shaolin was a Buddhist nun named Ng Mui. Ng Mui was believed to have been the sole custodian of a streamlined, highly practical and effective martial arts developed within the temples. In turn, Ng Mui is said to have passed her knowledge onto her chosen disciple, a young girl named Yim Wing Chun. As Yim Wing Chun taught the system to others, it became known as Wing Chun.

Some say that the story of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun was merely a way to conceal the truth about the system's origins and the identities of the political rebels who truly developed it.

Other say that late in the 1600's, the Manchurians became concerned about the Siu Lam Temples' rebellious activities and their continual development of the fighting arts. Therefore, they sent spies (many of them Manchu military leaders) to infiltrate the rebels and learn the traditional Southern fist systems as taught secretly in the Temples. The rebel kung-fu masters, realizing this, clandestinely developed a new system that was two-fold in purpose: firstly, it had to be learned quickly and efficiently, and secondly, it had to be devastatingly effective against the existing fighting systems that the Manchus were learning and teaching to their soldiers. Thus, Wing Chun was born.

How much of this is true?

I am sure that someone with more info/knowledge will post/enlighten us.

There are a lot of history missing from that period because - The teaching of martial Arts at that time was outlawed & if the government caught any traitor/rebel, that "guilty" party was executed & the guilty party's family down to nine generations were hunted down and execute them as traitors as well. So a lot of what really happened during that time period is???????

Thanks. I found this too. I wonder why there is so little on this guy?

[Chinatown Kid]

I understand KyFi, I wasn't mad or anything. I just wanted Haz to know if the information I did give him about the origin of Wing Chun does turn out to be wrong then I didn't mean to intentionally give him a false story.

[HAZ]

It would be cool to come up with an article, kinda like a footnotes to shaolin temple, with name checks, some mythic/historic info - like who was Ma Fu Yi? I've read some interesting stories about him on line. And some clarifications would be cool - if the temple is burning, where is Pei Mei??

[The Amazing Psycho Per]

Well like KiYi pointed out, when looking into martial arts history it is very hard to distinguish fact from legend. The reason is that there hasn't been much serious historical research on the subject, at least not available in the west. So you have all sorts of martial arts enthousiast making some research, but most probably not in a rigourous historian way. So what is more probable, is that there is more myth then fact in what is available for information on shaolin temple, or should I say temples since theyre would've been at least five at one time. So what we're stuck here is a situation where the past has been romanized and fantasised just like the samuraï figure in Japan, wich we know now that the idealized version we have of it is a modern construction that mainly saw the light of day under the rule of emperor Meiji.

One other note is that, since martial arts was forbiden in some periods of Chinese history, it is not impossible that some documents concerning it's history or practice could've been destroyed during those periods, or in the burnings of some temples during bouddhists persecutions. Now it is only a presumption and not based on any fact I know...

As for Pai Mei, according to Linn Haynes: " The stories are often misleading though, as Pak Mei's story was usually combined with that of the traitorous monk Ma Ling Er in both litterature and film retelling of the Shaolin legend."

So you see, if you want to know the history of Shaolin, it's martial arts and it's important figures, it is quite an harduous task. Now what is more readily available and what we're left with for now is the legend...

[HAZ]

I look at all this stuff like I would Greek Myths. Like the burning of Shaolin is kindaa like the Iliad for me. I like being familiar with the legends & if they relate to history in any way, that's cool too. Today I'm going to the library to pick up a book on more of these things. The way there is no historical accuracy with these tales I find reflects the movies. Five Shaolin Masters, Executioners From Shaolin, Clan Of The White Lotus, Shaolin Temple, all tell variations on the same story. It's the variations, the re-occuring characters, and the myths & histories that surround them which interest me.