Cinematographers' influences...

[peringaten]

Too often we bandy about the names of directors, action directors and actors as a be all and end all of chat on this board regarding a film's presentation. Let's look at Sun Chung for instance, his style most recognisable, and with the influence of Tong Gaai/Wong Pei Gau, etc. moreso, however not to be overlooked the great contribution of Lam Nai Tsui as cinematographer on SC's finest work. How much influence did Lam Nai Tsui, aka Mouse apparently, exert upon SC's product? Quite a lot I guess judging from the stylistic traits shown in say his Men From The Gutter, or his work on Mobfix Patrol, though modern, that stylised cinematography is unmistakable. Guess when we're talking about SC's films, we're also talking about how good this guy was.

How about Yu Chi? Kuei Chih Hung's films had a certain grit to them photography-wise, I guess this man had quite some influence to define that grit. Whose decision was it to present "Deaf Mute Killer" from Criminals 2 in black and white? Don't know, but it really does elevate it in some manner, gives this almost warped disabled-mute-Frankensteinish outcast tale some resonance not usually expected from Shaw films. Regardless the sans colour choice, just the general camera-work and placement here is fantastic. Makes me realise we probably can't overlook these dudes.

How about Chang Cheh's films... Miyaki Yukio, aka Kung Mu To, this guy was there on numerous up until the later beginnings of the Venoms period, present on 5DV's alongside new to the CC-camp cinematographer Tsao Hui Chi, the fellow who'd take over in Yukio's wake for the later more closetedly set-bound late-era CC Shaw work. For those who think CC's later flicks lack the filmic style of his earlier works, how much of this could be down to the absence of Miyaki Yukio, as opposed to just a degredation of CC's typically acclaimed general filmmaking talents, further than just action influence shifts?

How about Chor Yuan's stuff? I guess Huang Chieh was some foggy fog-loving bastard. Who influenced all those scenery in front of the action composed shots?

Etc... don't know what I'm saying, takes a whole bunch of dudes to make a film, but think these guys might need much credit. Thoughts or insights anyone?

[KyFi]

How about Chang Cheh's films... Miyaki Yukio, aka Kung Mu To, this guy was there on numerous up until the later beginnings of the Venoms period, present on 5DV's alongside new to the CC-camp cinematographer Tsao Hui Chi, the fellow who'd take over in Yukio's wake for the later more closetedly set-bound late-era CC Shaw work. For those who think CC's later flicks lack the filmic style of his earlier works, how much of this could be down to the absence of Miyaki Yukio, as opposed to just a degredation of CC's typically acclaimed general filmmaking talents, further than just action influence shifts?

I hadn't really thought about that, but that's an excellent supposition. While I enjoy some of them, I find that post-5 Venoms films of CC just don't seem to share the cinematic quality and weight of his earlier stuff. I had kind of attributed that to CC's changing style and diminished budget, but I think you might be on to something regarding Kung Mu To's departure. I think his cinematography--camera angles, movements and zooms, are a huge part of the greatness of CC's filmography, IMO.

How about Chor Yuan's stuff? I guess Huang Chieh was some foggy fog-loving bastard. Who influenced all those scenery in front of the action composed shots?

Fog and flowers! I watched Convict Killer for the first time last month (and loved it) and I chuckled at the opening shots with all the colorful flowers framing the scene. Killer Clans is another prime example. Yeah, I'm really not sure if that's the style and choice of the cinematographer or the director.

But yes, I agree with your overall point that these guys played a major, and largely unheralded role, in creating the Shaw universe we all love.

[BaronK]

CC's early stuff had a nice visual feel to them.(BfS, MoI, The Duel) As he got very settled in the latter 70s, his stuff visually regressed. His use of the stereotypical, cliched zoom was rather embarassing when others were growing. My ONLY complaint with 5EN is the way it was shot. Lu Ku Chun, master Sun Chung and LKL took much pride in the visual aspect of their work.

Chor Yuen to me, was the Hitchcock of the martial picture. He loved gloss and glamour and having his shots look like pictures. Where Sun Chung had more movement and angles and creativity, CY used static shots but filled them with color, mood and personality.

Sun Chung. The master. Goodness. He put cameras in places that, man. Under carts, behind doors with the windows out. In trees. On rooftops. He used tracks, p.o.v., etc, damn. Redevous with Death and Human Lanterns are much more than the presented story because of the visual aspects of the films. There is a shot in RwD where CKT's case is stolen in the middle of the night. It is primarally shot p.o.v. and it's lovely stuff. To Kill a Mastermind is something that still shines through visually even though their isn't a very good print to support it. One of the early shots from Kung Fu Instructo has a sick man pushing a cart about to drop and pass out and the supporting camera work was lovely stuff. Even the uber uninteresting/unentertaining Kid with a Tattoo has very good camera work. Human Lanterns is a sumptuous, visual treat. The master.

Lu Chun Ku was another one witha visual eye. He sot his Fu differently than his wu xia. The Master and Lover's Blades were shot much more calmly than Lady assassin, Bastard Swordsman, Holy Flame, etc. Lady Assassin is visually lovely and Bastard Swordsman has a ton of camera placements and movemonet. Good stuff.

While I mentioned the directors and not the cinematographers, sometimes one has a personal style that leads the DoP to do what he does.

[peringaten]

I don't know, I definitely agree a director's style exerts a primary influence over overall feel and tone stylistically, but I'm definitely curious how much influence is really exerted by the cinematographers. Of course general working crews exert influence, and each director seemed to have their own usual working crews at different points, but these cinematographers usually seem to get good high opening credit billings, end results on shared works leading me to think they were doing their thing influencing directors as much as vice versa in instance.

I mean take Chang Cheh. The Delinquent, even though co-billed directed with Kuei Chih Hung, also comes intact with cinematographer Yu Chi. It doesn't look like your typical Miyaki Yukio lensed CC-flick. It has that grit that comes with Kuei Chih Hung's flicks lensed by Yu Chi, Killer Snakes, his work on the Criminals, etc.. How much of this is down to CC, KCH and how much down to Yu Chi? I mean CC co-directed with a few guys, but when they have Yukio on board they retain that typical '70s CC look, even Boxer From Shantung which he worked on, alongside even former cinematographer Pao Hseuh Li. Kueh Chih Hung's later work without Yu Chi looks different too. Loses that gritty look.

The fact Shaws billed these guys nicely and even led some of them to the directors seats, possibly shows they must have had some huge contribution. Going back over first post ground, look at Lam Nai Tsui, his modern Shaw stuff (ignore the ropey mediocre One Way Only and to some extent Brothers From The Walled City), has that Sun Chung-ish look to it in respect. Enough to make me think he was a major factor in Sun Chung's style. I mean you can see the stylistic traits of SC, before LNT came along with Devil's Mirror... that has some great camera work and tracking shots and the like, but there's that sheen with LNT. The Criminals 4 with "Queen Of Temple Street", don't know who was stretching out with that, SC and LNT getting good billing, but the lensing on that is something else, some of the best I've seen from an SC work, unlike the other stuff. Someone was going for it there for sure. Remarkable stuff.

Think the Criminals series is good example of the cinematographers' and directors' crafts. The whole series rather than just result and subject matter, seems an excuse for the directors and photographers to stretch out together, both getting top billing in each segments instance, not constrained so much by typical Shaw studio stylings. Gives a sense of teamwork and influence between these guys behind the cameras I think.

Would love to find more insight into the workings behind these flicks, than just speculating from the finished results.

[Tosh]

Very interesting subject, I don't know enough about it to comment but a cool read and interesting angle none the less. I believe many Chinese movies were heavily influenced by Chambara at the time, especially the cinematography.

[peringaten]

That favourite directors thread got me feeling I want to bump this... Anyone got any more thoughts?

[teako170]

The "lens masters" are sadly the forgotten. I touched briefly on Yukio Miyaki in this thread.

We sometimes forget that cinema is a team effort and director & star are not the only players involved.

It goes without saying that the CT and director form a symbiotic relationship on the set but the praises --

(and, on the flip side, criticism) always land with the director.

[Cognoscente]

Cho On-Sun deserves some much needed props. He impressed Lau Kar-Leung enough on The Lady is the Boss that Lau used him for The 8 Diagram Pole Fighter and Disciples of the 36th Chamber. After the end of Shaw's film era, Lau hired him on Martial Arts of Shaolin and Tiger on the Beat.

Cho was one of the two cinematographers on Wong Jing's Challenge of the Gamesters, but it was the other guy who would end up being Jing's constant collaborator. Lam Wah-Chiu went on to work for Jing on I Love Lolanto, The Flying Mr. B and Girl with the Diamond Slipper. After Shaw stopped making movies, Jing hired Lam on The Seventh Curse and Born to Gamble.