Tom Yum Goong / The Protector (US) / Warrior King (UK) (2005)

[Guest Yi Long]

Yeah, I'm sure Bey isnt minding this one bit. He is actually in a position to make things better, and we STILL have @#%$ like this going on. What a wanker.

[Guest limubai2000]

While I do agree Bey is starting to seem like a sell out its possible he can influence the process more directly in the future. It might be entirely possible that they are giving him limited control until he proves that he can acquire and market films that will make money. This would be normal in the movie biz aka paying your dues. As for the cuts I'm going to point fingers at Harvey. Though in truth the film could use tightening just like Ong Bak did.

And yes it seems likely that they would put the cut and uncut versions on the DVD, look at their specs on the SPL/Kill Zone DVD... they are better than the HK one!!! And you can bet who is responsible for that, Bey probably is. So I will lament the theatrical release of a cut version (though it might be tighter than the uncut version just like Ong Bak was) but will go see it if available in my area coz it probably looks awesome on the big screen, and will wait for the DVD I would assume to drop in November for Xmas season.

[Guest Yi Long]

I dont know. Bey has always been pro-cuts. It's evident in his book as well as some of his commentary. He feels these asian movies need cuts and trimming etc to appeal to the western market. Which is bullshit, as those people narrow-minded enough to not being able to accept anything that isnt 'westernised', isnt your target area. Or at least it shouldnt be. Plus most of the youth HATES dubs and wants to see their anime and movies UNCUT.

Obviously Harvey is also much to blame, but we all expected this from him anyway. the guy is a major league @#%$ who doesnt know @#%$ about movies. How many cut asian movies have actually improved on the original version?

Bey is held to high esteem by many here, and I agree he does interesting commentaries... and his book is quite nice.... but his views on movies and moviemaking are just way off.

Sad thing is he actually seems to have lots of influence in HK cinema at the moment, which has very often resulted in him helping out with the casting of certain movies, and sees him choosing teenybop singers over actual actors/martial artists. And obviously is acting and screenwriting is horrible as well.

We just want our movies uncut and subbed, in it's original soundtrack and ratio. Is that really so hard to understand for these movie people!?

Cant there be a law or something that says works of art, including movies, are not allowed to be cut by anyone other then the director? Or at least not by some company who just buys the rights for a certain area?

BTW, I dont like Bey Logan's name, so from now on he will be known a B-Lo. I think that connects more with us young people.

[Guest The Running Man]

While I do agree Bey is starting to seem like a sell out its possible he can influence the process more directly in the future

I don't know what you mean by "starting to" when he has pretty much made it very clear on where he stands for almost at least two years now on his audio commentaries.

I posted this on another board some time ago...I'll put it here as well:

BTW, seeing as how James decided to quote Brian White, I decided to take it upon myself and also quote Bey Logan and Mike Leeder on their stance seeing as how some have been, I suppose, in denial that Bey would actually feel the way he does on this since they keep defending him or just plain ignoring it.

So, this is directly taken from the HKL commentary track of First Option. This is word for word what was said:

Bey Logan: I remember, Media Asia actually, we got into a lot of trouble cause we redid the sound on some of the early DVDs like A Better Tomorrow.

Mike Leeder: Yeah, you got rid of the music man! That's the best pa...

B: That was right! And what do they get stuck with? "Media Evil" that's right...

M: That's like...."MiraAXE"

B: Yeah yeah....now they got the thing on Mira...wha what's your take on that?

M: My take is...okay...most Hong Kong films were shot without any sound. So dubbing them into any language doesn't really harm them. If it gets the films to a bigger audience...great. Miramax will release them and yes they might trim them but, you know what? They also pushed Iron Monkey onto the charts...

B: Yeah.

M: They were the guys who released Legend of the Drunken Master...Drunken Master 2. A lot of movies that would have otherwise never have got seen. And yes...I'm a big fanboy myself but, you got to give it a break. It is a case of....otherwise the only people who are gonna be making money of it are the pirates.

B: Yeah.

M: And it's now good to see these movies getting a proper release.

B: Right. I feel the same. And I think if you just spent a lot of money....it's like if I buy you a house for millions and millions of dollars and I paint it green...I've paid for the privilege of painting it green.

Yup...and green is also the color of money isn't it Bey?

[Guest GwaiLoMoFo]

This cracks me up!! Sooo many people complained about how terrible this film was apart from the action scenes. If anything some of you guys should be ecstatic that they are cutting it up. Cause you know they wont be touching any of the action. Some of you will probably like the movie more!!:lol

[Guest chen lung]

SPL will be the original version AFAIK.

[Guest The Running Man]

This cracks me up!! Sooo many people complained about how terrible this film was apart from the action scenes. If anything some of you guys should be ecstatic that they are cutting it up. Cause you know they wont be touching any of the action. Some of you will probably like the movie more!!

Yeah, pretty much anyone who's already seen Tom Yum Goong is not really complaning about the movie being cut, since it's so horrible outside of the action.

I'm actually interested to see what they are gonna do with it, since the movie itself it so damn unwatchable I would love to know how they are going to make it anywhere near watchable.

Probably just cut as much as they possibly can out.

[Guest Yi Long]

... Like these movies he speaks of, Fist of Legend, Drunken Master 2, Iron Monkey... like they wouldnt have been succesfull if they had been released UNCUT and subbed. Give me a @#%$ break, Bey. These movies are a success DESPITE of the horrible treatment they have gotten by Miramax. Not BECAUSE of...

Besides... if Miramax are doing such a fine job, why are all the fans BOYCOTTING their poor, cut releases? I wouldnt even watch their FOL or DM2 if it was free, let alone buy it.

He says otherwise pirates would be the only ones making money out of it... Guess what? I'm very much NOT into pirating, but I'll gladly pay a pirate for FOL uncut and subbed, instead of paying money to Miramax for their release.

IF Miramaxe would just release these movies uncut and subbed, pirates wouldnt be making any money as there would be no reason for us to resort to bootlegs.

Bey Logan is such a @#%$.

He actually believes that Miramax is doing us all a favour... (!) Get the @#%$ outta here, Bey. Miramax has even made it impossible for CHINESE people to get the CHINESE version. How @#%$ arrogant is that!?

He calls himself a 'fanboy', but he is one of the reasons that HK cinema is in the sorry-ass state it's in. Dumb ****s like him shouldnt be in this business.

Remember all those Kurosawa classics that only got cut releases back in the 50's and 60's? It's now 50 years later, and though finally people have realised that nobody wants CUT Kurosawa's, the movie execs are still making those same mistakes.

[Guest Yi Long]

Ow yeah... the soundtrack for Warrior King (blegh) was done by RZA.

Where's a drive-by shooting when you need one?

[Guest VenomsFan]

Hey Yi Long I agree with you except

IF Miramaxe would just release these movies uncut and subbed, pirates wouldnt be making any money as there would be no reason for us to resort to bootlegs.

Not really. I mean official releases are released on DVD before they even get into Miramaxe's hands to release them in the US. Sure more people see them once going through the US market. But by that time There are several international versions on official DVD, not bootleg.

Bootlegger's I suppose could advertise better quality DVDs. But his has nothing to do with Miramaxe.

Are you sure it's hip hop RZA? Because there is a female RZA who worked on Danny the Dog (Baby Boy). There was some money making confusion on that US DVD release as well. Can anyone confirm it's the hip hop RZA? And not the vocal composer from UK RZA?

[Guest Johnnie freeze]

You think they'll go through all the trouble of cutting the movie and re-editing it, and inserting a new soundtrack... and then suddenly they'll release an uncut version on DVD!?

Umm... yeah, they might. Theatrical releases are edited to satisfy the *general* Western audiance as they don't want to lose them to too much Eastern culture and philosophy. They can satisfy us hardcore martial arts headz by offering the uncut footage on the dvd. They know *we* want to see it but we're a small minority compared to your casual western fan who's just looking to be entertained by a new Jackie Chan. They'd actually lose money at the theatre trying to satisy the hardcore MA fan rather then pleasing the masses. Unfortunately they don't offer 2 versions at the theatre-1 for the average joe and another for us, but they can do it on the DVD. It's all about marketing.

[Guest The Running Man]

They'd actually lose money at the theatre trying to satisy the hardcore MA fan rather then pleasing the masses

There's no proof of such.

[Guest limubai2000]

There's no proof of such.

Agreed. If anything the last 5, maybe 8(?) non-US big martial arts films that were "properly" promoted and released all made money at the US box office, even Hero which Miramax basically dumped made money for them. I don't recall any (HOFD, Hero, or CTHD) being edited save CTHD getting an Eng dub in some theaters, I saw all of them subtitled on the big screen. I believe all of Jet Li's films cut a profit as do Jackie Chan's I see no reason why TYG, OB, or SPL couldn't cut a decent profit if they were released at an appropriate time (ie not against a BIG blockbuster), properly promoted, and uncut except maybe adding an Eng dub.

I think if the morons who had Ong Bak would have really pimped that release they could have capped $100 million easily, it would have been perceived as "groundbreaking" in the US market. Especially since I show that DVD to non-MA folks and they are floored by the action in it, most of them go buy the DVD.

[Guest Johnnie freeze]

There's no proof of such.

Well..........right or wrong the bussinesmen who do the marketing of these flicks must feel there is proof of such which is partly why they re-edit and re-name movies with titles like "The Protector" and "Kill Zone". Its to make them more appealing and markatable to western audiances. I'm not saying that I like it, because I dont, but I understand business, and if there was "no proof", trust me, they sure wouldn't bother.

[Guest The Running Man]

The only proof that exists is that people like Harvey Weinstein do not respect most Asian cinema. They see it as a quick profit because he sees it as fast food. He does not see it as "real cinema". When asked about why he does this despite the far outcry from fans against his actions he was quoted as saying that he was doing it "to make the @#%$ work".

[Guest Gwailos Forever]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion here, but I personaly believe some of you should give Bey and Mike some slack.

Both these guys have done much more over the years promoting and raising the awareness of HK cinema to the Western World then all of us on this forum combined (if anyone here feels they have achieved greater things in this field please let me know)

I understand why people get passionate about cuts, hey, I've been annoyed myself on certain occasions being a long time fanboy myself. What I disagree with though are the very personal insults appearing here. Things like "I wish Bey would die", "He's a c**t" etc etc. It's just not appropriate

If Bey and Mike were trafficking women, dealing drugs etc then I'd understand

[Guest Chen Zhen]

I understand why people get passionate about cuts, hey, I've been annoyed myself on certain occasions being a long time fanboy myself. What I disagree with though are the very personal insults appearing here. Things like "I wish Bey would die", "He's a c**t" etc etc. It's just not appropriate

agree and cosign there....after all, these are just films, these guys arent starting pointless wars (ie bush). some of u guys really need to just relax...sounds like a few of u guys are losing sleep over this. not to mention, i thought a few of u WANTED the film to be cut since TYG, action aside, is just awful?

[Guest The Running Man]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion here, but I personaly believe some of you should give Bey and Mike some slack.

Slack on what? For being huge hypocrites? For Bey being a sell out and letting himself become a puppet? To be honest, not enough heat is being turned on these guys.

Both these guys have done much more over the years promoting and raising the awareness of HK cinema to the Western World then all of us on this forum combined (if anyone here feels they have achieved greater things in this field please let me know)

So by your logic...someone should work their way up so that they can sell out and become hypocrites. Because supporting the alterations on Asian films because certain white men in power don't like them is a bad thing. However, if you wrote articles on Asian moveis before, claimed you are a big fan, then do commentaries where you just talk a lot.....THEN you support the alterations on Asian films because certain white men in power don't like them....people will understand you.

I'm sorry but this has no logic to it other than just defending Bey Logan and Mike Leeder just cause they are Bey Logan and Mike Leeder. Let's be honest here, that's what this is all about really. Anyone else would have done or said what they did people would have no problem rambling on them as they have on Harvey himself. But because it's Bey Logan and Mike Leeder saying it, some people actually give it thought as if they might have a point or something.

Get real guys...

[Guest chen lung]

Yeah, few comments best avoided despite the differences.

I've received word that there was no time for Donnie commentary, HK press footage was poor quality but Wu Jing demo should still be happening (subject to change).

[Guest Johnnie freeze]

When asked about why he does this despite the far outcry from fans against his actions he was quoted as saying that he was doing it "to make the @#%$ work".

This qoute proves my point.

American studios dont feel that most Asian movies would work with a western audiance without some "tweaking". Raymond Chow was responsible for cutting out plenty of "Way Of The Dragon" for its US release, feeling that the humor [which had people rolling in the ailes in Asia] just "wouldn't work" in the US. I dont believe a lack of respect is the driving force for these changes....its more because of the cultural differences between east and west. If they are guilty of anything, it is narrow mindedness. Narrow minded studios simply pleasing your average narrow minded movie goer. Just be happy if they give the option of the original untampered with movie on the DVD.

Here is a link about the deal with Jet Li/Jackie Chan project

www.editzplanet.com/modul...umpost1427

if you cant view its basically saying

"It will be more American-style. It will be more suited to foreign audiences than Chinese audiences," he said. "If you make a Hollywood movie, of course you have to follow their wishes. They're paying us so much money."

This goes to show that movies are geared towards certain audiances, and that holds true whether they're making it, or re-editing it.

A thousand years from now the whole world will be united and 1 family....no more edited foreign movies for the other people. Be patient if you live that long.:smokin

* for the record, I dont like my movies edited...so if it can be proven that just as many westerners if not more would pay to see these movies untouched, then I'm sure they would stop. [right? >D ]

[Guest The Running Man]

American studios dont feel that most Asian movies would work with a western audiance without some "tweaking". Raymond Chow was responsible for cutting out plenty of "Way Of The Dragon" for its US release, feeling that the humor [which had people rolling in the ailes in Asia] just "wouldn't work" in the US.

Raymond Chow was spineless. The man was so desperate for success in the West that anything that seemed possible for that success he would do. For proof, know that he approved Robert Clouse's Game of Death '78 and all it's tasteless glory (gotta love that footage of Bruce's real funeral to act as a fake funeral in the film).

I dont believe a lack of respect is the driving force for these changes....its more because of the cultural differences between east and west. If they are guilty of anything, it is narrow mindedness. Narrow minded studios simply pleasing your average narrow minded movie goer.

Well, narrow mindedness is on the same track for lack of respect. Anyone that describes these films as "sh!t" and that they need to be made to work is saying something on how they view these films. I remember someone passing along an interview with Harvey where he said that Jackie Chan's films for him are "guilty pleasures". That's not a compliment.

Of course, every now and then there are moments where things are understandable. TYG is a horrible movie and quite honestly unfit for theatrical release. Heavy editing on that wouldn't surprise me. However it's not this occasion that is being looked at...it's the whole picture.

[Guest Yi Long]

I'm not taking ANYTHING back about what I said about Bey and Mike.

You say I shouldnt be so critical and negative about them cause they've done so much for asian movie fans in the west?

I partly agree that they've done alot to promote asian movies. Bey's commentaries are often entertaining and informative, and Mike has done a good job at HKL, hence some stuff that could/should have been better. Bey also wrote a nice book which I've enjoyed reading many many times. So I give them credit for that. Bey also did some nice stuff for TV, plus ofcourse the interviews and docu's on the HKL discs are nice as well.

But when it come sto them messing around with these movies, as in ALTERING/CUTTING them. That just wont fly, man. There's no excuse.

When asked about why he does this despite the far outcry from fans against his actions he was quoted as saying that he was doing it "to make the @#%$ work".

So suddenly Bey knows what WOULD work!? Can anyone give me the name of a movie, which Bey was involved in (creatively) that's been good? I cant think of any. Most of the movies he had a say in, are complete and utter CRAP. And most of them seem to rely on popstars to sell the flick to the local audience, which has been one of the main problems in HK cinema for the last 10 years orso.

So Bey know NOTHING about what makes a good movie. NOTHING!

But suddenly he has the power to change GOOD movies?

NOBODY can tell me that Fist of Legend, in it's original version, would NOT be a success. Instead of wasting all that money on cuts, dubs and edits etc etc... they should just do some proper subs on it, and use the rest of the money for some proper marketing, and FOL would sell ALOT of copies.

Ow... and get a decent cover designer, instead of usual 15 year old photoshop-copy-paste-floating-head-on-wrong-body kid.

Drunken Master 2 is PERFECT. Doesnt need ANY change. NONE at all. FOL same thing.

But even when a movie isnt perfect, they shouldnt cut it anyway. Cuts have pretty much NEVER made a movie better. Plus the fanbase wont buy the cut version.

Bey should just keep doing the things he's good at, such as commentaries and interviews...

Mike, I have no clue what he does, but he sure as hell shouldnt be altering soundtracks.

I fear the very worst for these movies they'll be releasing.

It's very simple what we ask for: Uncut, subbed movies. Personally I dont even need extras or a dub or whatever... I just want these movies uncut and subbed in a good quality, just so I can enjoy the movie.

Why do they keep thinking they should 'alter' it for the western market? All us fanboys are western.

If some hillbilly doesnt like the movie in it's original cut, you really think he'd suddenly like it once it's cut and dubbed?

Maybe.... but we should market these movies at low-brow hillbillies, but just at normal guys like us and our friends.

I've had many many friends who werent into asian cinema, who watched a HK movie (uncut and subbed) and absolutely loved it.

Fact is, a good movie is universal. There's no 'east' and 'west' @#%$. A good movie is a good movie. And a bad movie is a bad movie. It's very simple. Some western people will frown on wuxia movies with the flying and magic crap, but so do many asian people! There's nothing wrong with a movie not being liked by EVERYONE. Cutting 20 minutes from Bride with White Hair wont suddenly change a person's mind about liking it or not liking it. He/she would still dislike the flying magic stuff.

So in short: yeah I still think Bey and Mike are dicks. I'm sure they're nice persons in real life, and I'm sure they feel they are doing the right thing... but they are DICKS when it comes to them cutting/altering movies.

I'm guessing it's also partly insecurity. You have a good movie, you are going to release it, but you're not sure if everyone will like it. You feel it might not be good in some parts, and you feel you have to do SOMETHING to make sure it will be a success... so you start thinking... hmmm... maybe it's better if we cut out that part I didnt like...

But it isnt.

Just sub it, clean up the Video-quality, burn it on a DVD, and @#%$ release it. use the money you save from not having to cut, edit, dub, etc etc... and use that for some proper marketing. And you'll please the big big BIG fanbase, AND you'll reach the mainsteam audience.

It's so simple. Why the @#%$ dont they just do it RIGHT?

[Guest limubai2000]

Arguing on a message board is like 2 people trying to kill each with wiffle bats...

[Guest Isfahani]

You know, as long as they end up killing each other that's all that counts. :lol

I haven't paid much attention to this whole issue, we all know where to go to get the real goods - and if these chopjobs get the attention of the average american dumb**** moviegoer, then great... They're used to being spoonfed crap.

Cynical? Yeppers...

Just sub it, clean up the Video-quality, burn it on a DVD, and @#%$ release it. use the money you save from not having to cut, edit, dub, etc etc... and use that for some proper marketing. And you'll please the big big BIG fanbase, AND you'll reach the mainsteam audience.

Hey, no argument there, in a semi-perfect world... but @#%$, why try and force logic on a system that's known to be hopelessly illogical, and has been from the start?

[Guest Yi Long]

Arguing on a message board is like 2 people trying to kill each with wiffle bats... :b

Nah... I'd just jam the wiffle bat down his throut. That should kill him. If it doesnt I'll ram it up some other hole...