Dubs / Celestial and the english-speaking market

[Guest daTOAD]

as far as english dubs being disrespectful, i could almost agree[except for the But Still dubbers-fine lot of actors] if that was Ti Lungs voice I was actually hearing on the original track.

[Linn1]

it's got little to do with re-releasing films. First off, IVL is not re-releasing these films, we'll be lucky if we see the ones we're hoping for actually. The ONLY reason we're still seeing these films, is because IVL paid for them up front. They can't risk losing their investment after all the effort so far. We're lucky in that regard, because if they hadn't, we'd be out of luck at this point. Second, Celestial will not be putting these out on DVD. According to many people working there, they have no interest in that. Plus the risk is far to great in the US market for that sort of exercise when the majority,but certainly not all, of the “good†films are owned by Dragon Dynasty. While I certainly like them a lot, films like Duel for Gold, Sword of Swords, etc are not going to set the world on fire because they have a dub.

As for them having "all the dubs!!" Have you been to their warehouse? I've spoken to people that have. To be honest, Celestial themselves don't know what they have. So to make it out as some conspiracy against American fans is just...well, wishful thinking. They couldn't tell you half of what is in the Shaw vaults. They've never cataloged what's there. Simply because a film catalog made in 1985 (which is when the one Celestial has was made that some fans have seen and taken as gospel for what they have) says that the Shaws had the English dub track for a film, doesn't mean it still exists. First off, the list was made from records kept in the studio of production times, NOT a “head count†of actual elements. Meaning, it might be on there simply because it was supposed to be done. It doesn't mean it actually was done. Perhaps a film got pushed back and then it was decided that it wasn't worth the effort to dub it since they had no overseas buyers. This did happen at least for the non-kung fu/wuxia films according to a few sources working at Shaws.

Also to guess that all these elements are still in good enough shape with nearly no protection all these years is a bit much. Remember, the original audio elements were kept separate from the films themselves. According to at least two accounts they were not as well taken care of...not by a long shot. Hell, half the stuff we've seen of the film themselves have been three or four different elements spliced together. In many cases, original elements mixed with theatrical prints to complete them. The simple law of averages would tell you that some of them would have been lost/degraded over time. While I personally don't care about the dubs, I understand that fans do. I've made it a point to tell every company I've talked to that this has to be the point of their conversation. Get the original language tracks and the dubs if it exists. But to say they have it and are holding it back because they want to screw us is giving them too much credit. Actually, having now worked with three companies on these releases in the US, Mark's post is closest to the reason than anyone else on this thread as to why you haven't seen the dubs that exist still.

[bobo]

i don,t agree with the point of english dubs being disrespectful to asian people. movies all over the world are dubbed iinto different languages--i,ve got a steven segal movie right here and its available to watch in english--french or spanish- i don,t feel the least bit disrespected by that--its called having a CHOICE. i,m sure there are american movies that are dubbed into asian language for asian countries--so whats wrong with that--nothing.---- onto another point--i find it hard to believe that a multimillion dollar operation like remastering the shaws and their not even sure of what they have after all this time--thats no way to run a business. the fact that both IMAGE and DRAGONDYNASTY won,t annouce to people their tittles and intentions worries me.

[Guest sevenhooks]

there are american movies that are dubbed into asian language for asian countries--so whats wrong with that--nothing.

Wrong. It's disrepectful to the english language.

:b

[Guest 5th Yang]

I swear if I purchase a Dragon Dynasty NEWLY DUBBED SB dvd next month...I might blow up.

Old school dub or stick to the subs......NO NEW DUB PLEASE!

I can feel more dissappointment upcoming but let's hope not.

5th Yang...in Milwaukee

[Linn1]

-i find it hard to believe that a multimillion dollar operation like remastering the shaws and their not even sure of what they have after all this time--thats no way to run a business. the fact that both IMAGE and DRAGONDYNASTY won,t annouce to people their tittles and intentions worries me.

Please remember, up until just a few years ago, no one cared about these films in HK. Heck, for years they didn't think there was a good enough print of God of Gamblers to put out a DVD. And that wasn't that old a film and hugely popular. Now just imagine films that haven't been seen for decades. Does it make sense, no. But that's the way HK treats its films. As for reasons you don't get a title list from companies:

1.Many small company stopped doing it. Largely because fans complain when the titles they want don't show up in a timely fashion. Or they don't show up at all for some reason. It's better in their minds to keep your mouth shut until nearly everything is done or tell you just a few titles, then you've been promised nothing.

2.No company does it. You can't call up Warner Brothers and ask them for a list of all their films they'll put out in the next year. You'll get some, but not all certainly. It's a protection from all kinds of things. In the case of genre films, it's partly protection from boots (a bootlegger releasing old copies of a film prior to it's legit release to beat the window). In the case of many companines, it's to simply to plan out timing of releases ie you wait until Image puts out their release dates for the next few months and plan your release dates to alternate.

[Guest sevenhooks]

Linn, I agree with you that there's certainly no "conspiracy" on anyones behalf to f-over the english-speaking market.

I do believe quite strongly however, that we'd currently be sitting on several more dvds with english dubs if it weren't for what I can only perceive to be general apathy on the part of both Celestial and these distributors.

And I think that's a shame.

[Linn1]

what I can only perceive to be general apathy on the part of both Celestial and these distributors.

Celestial and we have an agreement. Slightly more control is given to other countries because they are not as large a market. But what Celestial doesn't get is that fans want these titles a certain way, and they are not worth as much as they would have been without years of boots floating around. That said, sales of the films don't matter to them.

You guys have to understand, Celestial has COMPLETE control of these releases in the US. If they tell Image or anyone else Mandarin is the language of a film, there's no getting another. If they tell them that they don't have a dub track, a company can't get it. If they say they don't like the menu screens, they have to scrap them. If they say you can't use original poster art for covers, forget it. If they say, "Yes, we do have the lost three hour cut of 36th Chamber of Shaolin (this is an EXAMPLE) and you can have it," then you build an entire year of promotion around it, spend thousands of dollars, and take orders, etc. They can at the last minute say, "We're sorry, we were wrong. We don't have that. You can put out Mr Virgin instead," they can do that. And no, I an not making this up. While I agree Image did NOT know what they were doing with some of the titles they released, it boggles my mind that they agreed to the deal. I don't think they knew what they were getting into actually.

There's no room for companies to wiggle around unless they are connected to a large corporation. DD ONLY has a better contract because it was made under the Disney umbrella. I have no doubt at all that they would not have gotten a contract like they got if they were simply Dragon Dynasty. And that said, I've already heard bad things about stuff going on behind the scenes on the DD releases with problems getting elements and the like.

[Guest sevenhooks]

If (Celestial) tell(s) Image or anyone else Mandarin is the language of a film, there's no getting another. If they tell them that they don't have a dub track, a company can't get it.

In other words, unless we're talking about a company with major clout and knowledge (DD), we can likely forget about seeing dubs on disc.

Regardless if Celestial has them or not.

And even then, chances aren't good.

Wonderful.

But wait a minute. How does all of this account for UK TV GOLD then?

Yes they're a big company (part of the BBC I believe someone mentioned).

Yet how strange to think that the handful of titles they got to broadcast on their station ALL just magically happened to have the old school dubs - all of which sounded beautiful - and most of them have NEVER been seen/heard before.

Strange indeed.

But perhaps those were the only dubs left in the vault?

:rolleyes

Well, let's hope UK TV GOLD continues to get and show as many of these films as possible.

Of course then it would only be a matter of time before Red Sun or some such outfit boots them.

So, does anyone here wanna take bets on how long it's going to be before we start seeing english bootleg discs of "DISCIPLES OF THE MASTER KILLER" at your local FYE?

[Linn1]

first off, as I said, I don't think DD would have gotten the deal they did without Disney doing it to begin with. As for the UK, UK television is a completely different thing from US DVD. Due to the smaller market, I'm sure they have more leeway. Also, the British and HK still have close ties. It's a different deal when you're an independent distributor in the US.

[Guest Markgway]

It's also worth mentioning that Celestial really want to get into the western TV market and so might be more accomodating with UK Gold than Image DVD.

[Guest sevenhooks]

It's also worth mentioning that Celestial really want to get into the western TV market and so might be more accomodating with UK Gold than Image DVD.

Interesting.

Well hopefully some stateside cable network will scoop up a package sooner rather than later.

Because waiting for these DVD companies here to get their @#%$ together is quite obviously a futile exercise.

[bobo]

i hate to say this but i,m beginning to believe that the only way the north american audience is going to have access to the english dubs of KILLER CLANS--SPIRITUAL BOXER and DISCIPLES OF 36TH CHAMBER will be from bootlegs. same old problem--seems if we wait for the legits we may all be dead and buried by that time.

[Guest sevenhooks]

seems if we wait for the legits we may all be dead and buried by that time.

Or fittingly enough, we all end up as human lanterns, all hanging in the haute mansion hallways of Run Run and Mona's bastard offspring.

[Guest 5th Yang]

Resorting to boots for dubbed Shaw's? And I thought the bootleg era was over with the new distributors arriving.

Guess not.

5th Yang

[Linn1]

Well hopefully some stateside cable network will scoop up a package sooner rather than later.

Not in the US. The TV rights were already bought by Disney when they did the DVD deal for Merryaxe, now Dragon Dynasty. Disney still has the TV rights for 200+ films and first look at everything else prior to another buyer moving in for the leftovers. Which aren't much.

BTW, all is not lost guys. There's still a couple of companies looking at these films.

[Guest 5th Yang]

Not in the US. The TV rights were already bought by Disney when they did the DVD deal for Merryaxe, now Dragon Dynasty. Disney still has the TV rights for 200+ films and first look at everything else prior to another buyer moving in for the leftovers. Which aren't much.

I didn't realize it was 200+ but thought it was only 50 titles.

[Guest sevenhooks]

Not in the US. The TV rights were already bought by Disney when they did the DVD deal for Merryaxe, now Dragon Dynasty. Disney still has the TV rights for 200+ films and first look at everything else prior to another buyer moving in for the leftovers. Which aren't much.

BTW, all is not lost guys. There's still a couple of companies looking at these films.

Gung Fu Din Ying Sun

Ha! I swear.

Your constant tug-of-war w/your bits of details here and there are playing such emotional rollercoaster/rescue w/my heart that I'mma gonna start calling you "Linn and Yang"!!

[Linn1]

I didn't realize it was 200+ but thought it was only 50 titles.

The deal was the rights to 50 titles on DVD and video on demand rights to the entire Shaw Brothers library, which included TV rights on a first look basis.This specified 200+ titles (I THINK it was 250) marked up front, and the right to first refusal on the others. And the remake rights for two films, Come Drink with Me and Avenging Eagle.

And Seven...just to put a little more Yang in there. You would be SHOCKED at some of the titles that Weinstien didn't get. Some real head scratchers even non-fans would know. I would say there's at least 40 titles outside of the 15 or so Image got that were worthwhile.

[Guest 5th Yang]

Linn...I gotta say your the answer man on damn near everything that comes across this board.

Much appreciated for all your help.

[Linn1]

the covers for 36th Chamber and One Armed Swordsman look pretty good.

look at the bottom

[Guest sevenhooks]

Those look real good actually.

Reminds me of those great French covers.

Can't wait to see what they do for My Young Auntie.

[Guest Markgway]

Not overly impressed with the covers tbh.

The images are just OK. But the NYT quote is daft (has anyone ever heard any fan say that 'The 36th Chamber' is the greatest Kung Fu movie ever made let alone be "widely regarded" as such?) But worst is the inevitible Quentin Tarantino Presents slapped on EVERY sleeve. Oi, Banana Chin, @#%$ off!! Boringly predictible.

[Guest kermit]

36th Chamber looks really good. I'm not totally convinced by the One Armed Swordsman cover, for some reason which i cant quite put my finger on at the moment. I havent bought either of these yet so i'll definitely buy both of them.

[Guest bigwulee]

No disrespect to the Asian Culture but I rather have my english dubs just the way I remembered them on Black belt theater, the old USA Network, & NIGHTFLIGHT. There some movies SHAW movies that Celestial has put out that are so good I can't wait for the english dub. I love Kung fu movies so much I don't care which version I get as long as they are remastered, but I would rather not buy the PANMEDIA dubs(version 1, 2, 3 etc..) but if that's the only way I can get a half-way decent dub then I gotta do what I gotta do. It's sad though, Celestial sitting on the english dubs because these movies were made with the intent so everyone could enjoy them, that includes us english speaking folks.