Why have wires in a modern setting?

[sym8]

I don’t get why they feel the need to add wires to a fight scene in a modern setting.Why Why Why?

[legendarycurry]

56 minutes ago, sym8 said:

I don’t get why they feel the need to add wires to a fight scene in a modern setting.Why Why Why?

It cam be fun, creative and heighten the films feel in my opinion. I assume you are speaking of more overt high-flying wire stuff and not general stuff like wire-pulls to emphasize impact etc? It can also help in making inexperienced screen fighters look effective.

[ChillyChong]

People cannot leap or fly today like in past.

[sym8]

34 minutes ago, ChillyChong said:

People cannot leap or fly today like in past.

So true,the skill set today seems somewhat diminished.

 

40 minutes ago, legendarycurry said:

It cam be fun, creative and heighten the films feel in my opinion. I assume you are speaking of more overt high-flying wire stuff and not general stuff like wire-pulls to emphasize impact etc? It can also help in making inexperienced screen fighters look effective.

Wire-pulls for me are a necessity for the impacts but having people fly/hover around(especially when it’s so blatant)gets on my last nerve.Wu Xia I get it but cops and robbers modern day stuff it’s a big no from me.I loved Jet Li in lethal Weapon 4 but the fight scene in the house where hes obviously on a wire made me cringe,likewise in the finale of SPL 2,all that martial talent and yet there are moments of wire madness.

Edited June 3 by sym8

[legendarycurry]

31 minutes ago, sym8 said:

So true,the skill set today seems somewhat diminished.

 

Wire-pulls for me are a necessity for the impacts but having people fly/hover around(especially when it’s so blatant)gets on my last nerve.Wu Xia I get it but cops and robbers modern day stuff it’s a big no from me.I loved Jet Li in lethal Weapon 4 but the fight scene in the house where hes obviously on a wire made me cringe,likewise in the finale of SPL 2,all that martial talent and yet there are moments of wire madness.

I think it can work f done well  but I understand if you find it immersion breaking. I have a HKL DVD where they interview Donnie Yen and he basically says something along the line of how people think wires is just an easy fix but that it too has its own intricacy. He also describes how the bike kick in ITLOD4 was done using wires (wires on the bike driver). I think Yuen Woo Ping's Red Wolf uses it pretty well to make Kenny Ho (and his double) look like he can hold his own. I wouldn't recommend Blacksheep Affair to you though since that one is basically everything you dislike, It's a modern actioner with Ching Siu Tung choreography

[sym8]

19 hours ago, legendarycurry said:

I wouldn't recommend Blacksheep Affair to you thoug

Seen it many moons ago and f…in hated it😆

[sym8]

19 hours ago, legendarycurry said:

I think it can work f done well  but I understand if you find it immersion breaking. I have a HKL DVD where they interview Donnie Yen and he basically says something along the line of how people think wires is just an easy fix but that it too has its own intricacy. He also describes how the bike kick in ITLOD4 was done using wires (wires on the bike driver). I think Yuen Woo Ping's Red Wolf uses it pretty well to make Kenny Ho (and his double) look like he can hold his own. I wouldn't recommend Blacksheep Affair to you though since that one is basically everything you dislike, It's a modern actioner with Ching Siu Tung choreography

I don’t mind when it’s used to make people look better than what they are but when they use it to do super human things like something outta Marvel I get a little disappointed.👍

Edited June 4 by sym8

[One Armed Boxer]

On 6/4/2024 at 7:14 AM, legendarycurry said:

It can also help in making inexperienced screen fighters look effective.

9 hours ago, sym8 said:

I don’t mind when it’s used to make people look better than what they are

Interesting discussion! I'm curious what you think some examples are where wirework has been used to mitigate a performers lack of martial arts experience in a more contemporary setting?

Generally when I see wirework applied in a contemporary setting its to give the action a more exaggerated aesthetic - the likes of 'SPL 2' and 'The Blacksheep Affair' (and, yes - 'Twilight of the Warriors: Walled In') which have been mentioned - but in terms of covering a lack of experience I find this usually relies on quick cuts and doubles (mainly due to, as @legendarycurry raised, executing wirework effectively is a skillset in itself that takes time to master).  

The only example I can think of (and technically it's not even contemporary!) is Jackie Chan's jumping roundhouse kick in the factory set finale of 'Drunken Master 2', but that was likely more do to with performing it safely versus a lack of experience.

 

[sym8]

14 hours ago, One Armed Boxer said:

The only example I can think of (and technically it's not even contemporary!) is Jackie Chan's jumping roundhouse kick in the factory set finale of 'Drunken Master 2', but that was likely more do to with performing it safely versus a lack of experience.

I think in Gorgeous Jackie was on a wire a lot when fighting Brad Allen especially when it came to the kicks,I don’t really mind that because age was beginning to catch up to him and we all know once upon a time he could do it without that aid.Not too long ago i rewatched she shoots straight and Joyce Godenzi was on a wire at times to sort of help her out,that sort of thing I’m ok with but the super human stuff should be left for the Wu Xia genre.👍

[Drunken Monk]

I'm a fan of warriors and don't really understand why they are accepted in period films but not in modern films. Is it because period films are easier to consider fantasy?

I've seen many modern films where wires work, from SPL 2 to Legend of the Fist: Return of Chen Zhen. Even Twilight of the Warriors: Walled In. I'm perfectly fine with the accentuating movements. My only issue is when they look over-wacky like in Romeo Must Die and other late 90's/early 2000's martial arts films.

[sym8]

8 minutes ago, Drunken Monk said:

because period films are easier to consider fantasy?

I think so👍

[legendarycurry]

special shoutouts to 21 Red List  that walked so Blacksheep Affair could run y'all.

[DiP]

I often separate wirework in contemporary action movies into two categories: Excessive usage, and assisted usage. Examples of excessive usage: My Father is a Hero, Black Mask, and The Blacksheep Affair. Examples of assisted usage: The Bodyguard From Beijing, Unleashed, and Kung Fu Jungle.

I'm all for assisted usage but I have no big issues with wirework in general, as long as it's done appropriately.

Edited June 6 by DiP

[ShaOW!linDude]

I find some of Jet Li's American films to be egregious when it comes to wirework. Romeo Must Die and From Cradle to Grave are horrible because of the wirework in the fights. (Not to mention the latter's completely wasted use of Mark Dacascos.) Kiss of the Dragon and The One are fantastic because those films have almost completely grounded choreography with wire-assisted stunt falls. 

I am entirely against Wuxia styled wirework in a modern set film, unless it's meant to be fantasy based. I'm more tolerant of it in a period piece setting, but even then I can have issues with it.

I want to like Donnie Yen's Kung Fu Jungle but some of the wire-assisted moves take me out of the action. As action stars get older, it's understandable they can't always execute the physical feats on screen like they used to. Choreograph around the limitations. Be inventive. Relying on wirework just seems lazy and ineffectual to me. (Plus, it's not all that safe. A lot of back problems result from being yanked and pulled around in those harnesses.)

[Drunken Monk]

I'll say this: I'd rather have all the wire-work in the world in a martial arts film over CGI.

[sym8]

2 hours ago, ShaOW!linDude said:

I find some of Jet Li's American films to be egregious when it comes to wirework. Romeo Must Die and From Cradle to Grave are horrible because of the wirework in the fights. (Not to mention the latter's completely wasted use of Mark Dacascos.) Kiss of the Dragon and The One are fantastic because those films have almost completely grounded choreography with wire-assisted stunt falls. 

I am entirely against Wuxia styled wirework in a modern set film, unless it's meant to be fantasy based. I'm more tolerant of it in a period piece setting, but even then I can have issues with it.

I want to like Donnie Yen's Kung Fu Jungle but some of the wire-assisted moves take me out of the action. As action stars get older, it's understandable they can't always execute the physical feats on screen like they used to. Choreograph around the limitations. Be inventive. Relying on wirework just seems lazy and ineffectual to me. (Plus, it's not all that safe. A lot of back problems result from being yanked and pulled around in those harnesses.)

Totally agree

[One Armed Boxer]

On 6/6/2024 at 3:52 AM, sym8 said:

I think in Gorgeous Jackie was on a wire a lot when fighting Brad Allen especially when it came to the kicks,I don’t really mind that because age was beginning to catch up to him and we all know once upon a time he could do it without that aid.Not too long ago i rewatched she shoots straight and Joyce Godenzi was on a wire at times to sort of help her out,that sort of thing I’m ok with but the super human stuff should be left for the Wu Xia genre.👍

Gotcha, yeah those are solid examples of wires being used for moves that wouldn't have been able to be executed safely by the performers otherwise. Personally I don't mind wirework when it's part of the actions intentional aesthetic, the likes of the previously mentioned '21 Red List', 'Fatal Move', 'SPL 2', almost all of Philip Ko's Yukari Oshima starring Filipino cheapies, and I'll even throw in 'Iron Monkey 2' into the mix. Realistic action clearly isn't supposed to be playing a part in these productions regardless of the setting, so I have no issue with buying into the exaggerated aesthetic the action goes for.

The main issue I have in more recent years is the kind of 'floaty' (it's the best word I can think of to describe it!) wirework that's come to the fore. I think we were probably spoiled in the 80's (and even 90's to some degree) with stuntmen's ability to take high falls, and so when I see falls in HK movies these days it's immediately obvious that they're on a wire as it just never quite looks natural. The same for some impacts and moves, the whole 4 against 1 finale of 'Twilight of the Warriors: Walled In' being a classic example, I just didn't think the floaty wires were needed, and would have preferred if they'd kept the whole thing grounded like the earlier action scenes.

[sym8]

20 hours ago, One Armed Boxer said:

Twilight of the Warriors: Walled In' being a classic example, I just didn't think the floaty wires were needed, and would have preferred if they'd kept the whole thing grounded like the earlier action scenes.

Agreed 👍

[SDJ]

It's all about execution I think. Even in a period movie I don't like barely concealed wirework that makes it look like characters are floating around on the moon (e.g. Crouching Tiger, where the wires are used much more poorly than in a bunch of random 80s and 90s wuxias imo). I'm not 100% against some subtle wirework for stylistic effect in a modern setting but the directing has to make it work.

Edited June 7 by SDJ