Shaw dubs:I like them, you hate them. Let's talk about it

[vonhumboldtfleisher]

Um, no it wasn't. Although HK cinema went through periods of favouring either Cantonese or Mandarin, the dominant spoken language of the people was always Cantonese. There are a number of reasons Mandarin was succesful as the language of HK cinema - for one thing, it made it much easier to export films to Mainland China (and Taiwan and Singapore, etc.); and for another, there was an general perception that Mandarin was more classy, more highbrow and classical than Cantonese, which was regarded as a low, vulgar tongue of the working people.

The problem with English dubs in which the performers do 'Asian' accents is that they have absolutely no idea what 'Asians' sound like when they speak English, and instead invariably end up doing the whole Charlie Chan thing - or worse. Compare the UK English dub of PROJECT A with the dub of THE ASSIGNMENT. In THE ASSIGNMENT both Chan San Yat and Lung Tien-Hsiang's characters are dubbed by Asian actors speaking English. Their accents are, to my ear, quite thick but perfectly intelligible, and completely authentic. Compare this to the stereotypical pantomime going on in the English dub track on PROJECT A and it becomes pretty evident that the latter is the product of lazy cultural assumptions and plain old-fashioned ignorance. Does it really "make sense" that they're speaking English in a hokey 'Asian' accent? Would you prefer it if they dubbed Italian horror movies in English with everyone talking like Chico Marx too?

I've heard plenty of people complain about English dubs - they're corny, poorly acted, they're out of sync with the mouth movements, etc. etc. - but I've never once heard anybody say that the really weird part is that they're not talking like a buck-toothed pointy-straw-hat-wearing "Chinaman" from a Chuck Jones cartoon.

[venoms5]

Up until HOUSE OF 72 TENANTS (1973) the more dominant language was mandarin. TENANTS proved that Cantonese could make it in HK and as you mentioned, HUi Brothers cemented that but Cantonese didn't officially take over until sometime in the 1980s.

Italian films are different. They obviously aren't Chinese and don't stick out like a sore thumb if the voice performer does his own accent. And even in those movies, the voice performers often attempt a NY type accent especially for the Euro crime movies or films with scenes either set in, or a city masquerading as a US city.

Don't think I recall seeing a dub with a Chuck Jones cartoon imitation save for a movie that was intentionally making fun of Asian speech. One that comes to mind is the Italian-Spanish co-production gore horror flick PIECES (1983) which featured a brief appearance by Bruce Le and the dubber for him did an OTT accent for his couple lines.

[Killer Meteor]

Up until HOUSE OF 72 TENANTS (1973) the more dominant language was mandarin. TENANTS proved that Cantonese could make it in HK and as you mentioned, HUi Brothers cemented that but Cantonese didn't officially take over until sometime in the 1980s.

Cantonese was solidified in HK Cinema by 1977/1978, aside from Shaws who continued to make Mandarin films (the Venoms for instance)

[Tosh]

All the Venoms with the exception of Lo Mang would have spoken Mandarin being from Taiwan, From what I understand from my exgf who spoke both languages, is Cantonese and Mandarin are very similair, but there where different dialects of Mandarin she couldn't understand, and Mandarin was her first language.

[The Running Man]

Example: The Miramax dub for Hero. The English voice actor who does Jet Li's voice has an obvious Asian American accent and sounds like someone who picked up English as a second language. His english is broken throughout and makes a lot of the dialogue sound ridiculous. This is just not a faithful interpretation of Jet Li's original character--someone who has an authority and presence about him, both in how he presents himself and how he speaks his own native language (which he does not trip over as he speaks).

That really is a skewed way of looking at it. First of all, EVERYONE has accent. Everyone. There is no such thing as "no accent".

Second, you are implying anyone with an "accent" sounds ridiculous. Does Donnie Yen sound ridiculous to you? And that just isn't the case whatsoever. Neither is the fact that none of what you said is what I got from those voice actors (about having less presence, coming across as ridiculous). Plus you are exaggerating how much of an accent as if he could barely speak English. His English was very good and on top of that was very well cast for Jet Li. I wish they could get him to redub some of the previous English dubs with him as Li if they can't get Jet Li himself.

Anyway, the Hero English dub was almost perfectly cast. The weak link in the chain was James Hong as the Emperor. His voice was just too high pitch. But the real problem with that dub is the fact that the dub script was based on Harvey Weinstein's made up subtitles for the film. Not the accurate Mandarin dialog.

I personally have no problem with accents as long as they don't sound obviously fake or bad (which most people seem to think so every time they hear an accent and many times it isn't) or when it's so thick I can't understand it.

[Xenorama]

All the Venoms with the exception of Lo Mang would have spoken Mandarin being from Taiwan, From what I understand from my exgf who spoke both languages, is Cantonese and Mandarin are very similair, but there where different dialects of Mandarin she couldn't understand, and Mandarin was her first language.

i work with a bunch of Mandarin speaking people (and learning little bits of it) and they can't speak Cantonese any better than i can, and say it's very different from Mandarin. they all have slightly different accents from the various regions they are from in China (the boss is from Beijing, and says to speak Mandarin how she does), so from my experience Mandarin and Cantonese are as different as Mandarin and English or Japanese and English.

David

[Yakuza954]

That really is a skewed way of looking at it. First of all, EVERYONE has accent. Everyone. There is no such thing as "no accent".

Second, you are implying anyone with an "accent" sounds ridiculous. Does Donnie Yen sound ridiculous to you? And that just isn't the case whatsoever. Neither is the fact that none of what you said is what I got from those voice actors (about having less presence, coming across as ridiculous). Plus you are exaggerating how much of an accent as if he could barely speak English. His English was very good and on top of that was very well cast for Jet Li. I wish they could get him to redub some of the previous English dubs with him as Li if they can't get Jet Li himself.

Anyway, the Hero English dub was almost perfectly cast. The weak link in the chain was James Hong as the Emperor. His voice was just too high pitch. But the real problem with that dub is the fact that the dub script was based on Harvey Weinstein's made up subtitles for the film. Not the accurate Mandarin dialog.

I personally have no problem with accents as long as they don't sound obviously fake or bad (which most people seem to think so every time they hear an accent and many times it isn't) or when it's so thick I can't understand it.

Yeah, I know everyone has an accent, but my argument is about how it is wrong to choose voice actors based on an accent associated with a certain group (Asians living in the United States, in this case) and the perceived similarity with the ethnic group being dubbed (Chinese). For starters, it shouldn't even matter. The basis for selecting any voice actor for a role should be their ability to best perform the role, regardless of their ethnicity. For example, if you're choosing someone to dub Simon Yuen in Drunken Master, a good criteria would be to find someone who sounds like an old man, yet can balance well between sounding like a drunk buffoon at times and a wise old master during others. If that person ends up being of Asian descent, so be it, but at least the ability to do the role well was given the most importance. Unfortunately, that's hardly the case when these dubs are done with the opposite mindset, i.e, get an Asian person to dub this guy because he's also Asian no matter how good he fits the role. It's no coincidence that many of the old martial arts movies with an all "Asian" sounding voice cast have voice actors that sound like they were just picked off the street, with no previous voice acting experience. It's either that or voice actors who sound like they're just trying to copy another group's accent--with all the negative stereotypes that come as a result. This way of doing dubs is just a formula for disaster. I'm not trying to say anyone with an accent is ridiculous, but in these situations the use of accents really is.

There are certain situations in a dub where I think using an accent associated with a group, like Asian-Americans, Mexican-Americans or whatever, is actually a good idea. It's when the original movie has a character who also speaks with an obvious accent that differentiates him/her from the other characters. Like in Japanese Animation a lot of times, characters from Osaka have distinct accents from the other Japanese characters even though they're all speaking the same language. So what is often done in the English dubs is that the characters in English are given American "country accents". Even though "country english" is in no way similar to Osakan Japanese, it provides a similar contrast to the English used by the rest of the characters in the dub; the same way Osakan did in the original. So to use another example, if it were a Chinese film about a Mandarin-speaking person in Hong Kong, I think it'd be a good idea to give that person something like a strong Asian American accent in the English dub--it would provide a similar effect to the original where the character sounded like an immigrant or fish out of water.

To end this rant, I did not like the dub for Hero because I felt some of the voice actors were chosen simply because they they sounded "asian enough" for the roles. Jet's voice actor, in particular, I felt in no way sounded like a believable English interpretation of a (40ish year old?) Assassin in ancient day China. I remember him sounding more like a teenager even. I also wouldn't consider Jet the best dubber for himself simply because even though his English has improved a lot, he still doesn't have a very good grasp of the language.

[Eastern Evil]

KIller clans was a great Dub - I liked the way the dubbers got the inflections - or whatever - to match the feel of the characters and the movie tone. It just a nice, subdued, piece of work.

Perfect movie. (For me.)

[Killer Meteor]

is that an insult coated in sarcasm? who are you to judge people for not having the ability to learn mandarin/cantonese? Im sorry some of us dont have that as a priority in our lives. Yeah and what better way to get well versed in mandarin and cantonese than with a shaw brothers film subtitled in complete accuracy! gimme a break

Kinda off topic, I dunno if this was mentioned yet but did anybody catch that botched dub job in Ten Tigers of Kwantung. When Kuo Choi and Chiang Sheng go to the gambling hall and run into Lo Meng. The voice for chiang sheng changes in the middle of his conversation with lo meng. I thought that was rather odd

Actually Chiang Sheng's voice actor (Ted Thomas) remains the same - he just stops talking drunk and starts talking bad-ass.

And hearing that gravelly purr of Thomas come out of Chiang Sheng, who seemed to be always 14 years old, is hilarious.

[tenebre]

I speak mandarin.... Cantonese is nearly a different language....

also i hate english dubs... all of them

[Eastern Evil]

Actually Chiang Sheng's voice actor (Ted Thomas) remains the same - he just stops talking drunk and starts talking bad-ass.

And hearing that gravelly purr of Thomas come out of Chiang Sheng, who seemed to be always 14 years old, is hilarious.

That scene has the best 'being drunk' acting ever, in my opinion.

Phillip Kwock is hilarious with the eyes thing, and when he say 'Yeah, we lost' when he looks at the broken domino - just hilarious. Chian Sheng has an awesome moment when he is all of a sudden sober for like a minute when he asks Lo Meng about the broken domino.

That is an awesome scene.

Gonna go watch it right now!

...It wasn'rt a different voice for Sheng, he just went from a drunk, silly, having fun tone, to a serious tone of voice. I like these dubbers, silly as they sound - The one time I was shocked by a bad dub was 'Soul of the Sword' - 'Come Drink With Me' is the same dubbers - brand new I think, and really horribe! Only time I ever really hated a dub.

[Eastern Evil]

'What could we do with two fingers?'

'Have them with wine!"

[Tex Killer]

also i hate english dubs... all of them

I like some but that is mostly because dubbed was 1st time I see that movie. 5 element ninjas, kid with golden arm(well, this has some truly great lines), shaolin temple, 5 shaolin masters etc...

On dvd era I think never watched dub of movie new to me if original audio available...

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

kid with golden arm(well, this has some truly great lines

Nonsense.....

[Tex Killer]

Nonsense.....

Maybe so but I think "Kid" himself appears even more confident in dubbed than in subtitled release.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

Wow... that one went right over your head....

[Tex Killer]

Can be...I am not used to sarcasm in foreign language....

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

I was referencing Wai Pak's character constantly saying "nonsene" in Kid With Golden Arms..... but yeah, that joke kinda died....

[Killer Meteor]

I was referencing Wai Pak's character constantly saying "nonsene" in Kid With Golden Arms..... but yeah, that joke kinda died....

I think he says nonsense once...but a US tv print or something dubbed it over him swearing in other scenes?

[Tex Killer]

I was referencing Wai Pak's character constantly saying "nonsene" in Kid With Golden Arms.....

Åålright, I have not watched it that often though...Wai Pak got what he deserved in movie tho..Kid did not:bigsmile:

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

@killermeteor

I remember him saying it three times or so, but I could be wrong. Maybe it was more the douchy way he said it that stuck with me.

[bobo]

here's my contribution to this topic------- i'm going to watch my uncut original english dub version of THE KUNG FU INSTRUCTOR with TI LUNG, and if that upsets anyone that's just to bad !

[Killer Meteor]

here's my contribution to this topic------- i'm going to watch my uncut original english dub version of THE KUNG FU INSTRUCTOR with TI LUNG, and if that upsets anyone that's just to bad !

Only if Running Man still reads this...

[Cognoscente]

I wish there were English tracks for Challenge of the Gamesters and Winner Takes All.