Shaw dubs:I like them, you hate them. Let's talk about it

[Guest silver hermit]

anyone else like spanish dubs? those mofos sound so f'n cool...

as far as eng dubs are concerned if you don't like um don't watch um. eng dubs have a seperate entertainment value on to themselves. everyone likes different things for different reasons. alot of people like to laugh at these movies and that was really hard for me to take at times. i'd be at screenings and some 300 pound heffer would just be rolling laughing at nothing and it would piss me off to no end i just wanted to reach over the back of her chair and slap her in the back of the head. now i understand that people enjoy these movies in different ways and thats cool. what can i say live and learn.

[Guest killer meteor]

Kinda off topic, I dunno if this was mentioned yet but did anybody catch that botched dub job in Ten Tigers of Kwantung.

I recall a similar case in New Fist Of Fury. Lu Ping's character has some pudgy second-in-command, who spends the first half of the movie dubbed with effeminate old coot voice, and then mid-way through a scene changes into a differerent gruff voice for the remainder of the film!

[Guest sevenhooks]

Maybe the main reason I find dubs lousy is because they kinda pasteurize the movie. These are Chinese movies. They represent a different culture, and provide us with a window on to a different world. I don't need to force my culture & language on top of this experience. I think its a very western need to take something from another country & manipulate it so that it becomes similar to what you already know. In the west, we like things to conform to our standards. I also wouldn't be surprised to find out that its mostly Americans that like dubs because Americans seem to dislike anything that isn't english - look at the great Spanish debate in your country - and they don't go for the "ching choing" or whatever ignorant things they say to mock foreign languages.

Also, If people haven't picked up any Mandarin or Cantonese after watching these movies for years, then I feel kind of sorry for you.

I don't think what you're saying is an "insult coated in sarcasm", but it does ring a tad presumptious of you.

How do you know why people watch things the way they do?

So typical of westerners, right? They're all so xenophobic that they HAVE to listen to the dubs.

What am I on soulstrut here??

When you say the following:

I don't need to force my culture & language on top of this experience. I think its a very western need to take something from another country & manipulate it so that it becomes similar to what you already know.

Or:

I also wouldn't be surprised to find out that its mostly Americans that like dubs because Americans seem to dislike anything that isn't english

???

How do you then account for the tons of english language films from Hollywood that are dubbed into countless other languages for foreign markets?

I remember seeing Aliens on tv late one night in Japan for example; dubbed in JAPANESE and thinking how strange it sounded.

I suppose that doesn't apply to your logic regarding the very nature and "need" of dubs as being a distinctly "western" thing?

I like the dubs because I like them. PERIOD. End of story.

And by the way, I happen to watch nearly every other foreign language film ASIDE from Shaw Brothers flicks in their orginal language with subtitles (and this includes all HK-made films from 1983 or so - on).

There's just something about the Shaw films that doesn't sound right to me when watching them in Mandarin or Cantonese (the latter of which I generally regard along with German as a not-too-pleasant-to-listen-to-language anyway).

And that doesn't make me racist or xenophobic either.

BTW, you're going to have to explain exactly what you meant by that "ching choing" comment.

Also, If people haven't picked up any Mandarin or Cantonese after watching these movies for years, then I feel kind of sorry for you.

I have picked up quite a bit of mandarin and cantonese over the years from watching these flicks, thank you.

Words and phrases though. No sentence structure or anything that would help me carry on an actual conversation.

So please continue to have pity on me.

My ignorant western ways have no doubt clouded my vision whereas I could not see the true purpose of these films before me...

the opportunity to learn another language!!

And so, uh.... yeah. Either way, I don't really see what any of that has to do with the price of tea in China regardless of how much language I've picked up watching these flicks.

[Guest SunChien2004]

To HAZ74, these movies are not a priority in most of our lives, so I don't see the urgency in learning Cantonese or Mandarin. You may not like the dubs and that's fine, but it doesn't mean everyone else shouldn't.

I have a life outside watching these Kung Fu movies, so if I could get an English dub, then by all means I'll get an English dub of a SB movie. I think a lot of other people have a lot of bigger things to worry about than what language a movie is dubbed in, so I don't think it'll kill anyone if they choose to listen to it in English.

[Guest Chen Zhen]

lord, what is with this obsene level of kung fu fandom english dub player hating? jeez...

[Guest ironfistedmonk2003]

I wish my copy of To Kill a Mastermind was dubbed, if ever there was a winning argument for dubs its all of those shite quality prints of films with burnt in subs which are impossible to read.

I love the dubs and I love Shaws, but to say the Shaw dubs have devalued the genre is nonsense. These films are not taken seriously in their original languages by casual viewers anyway due to the fact that so many of the films we love come off looking like shite compared to Western productions. You can't just point the finger at dubbing, when a bloke jumps up a 50ft wall backwards does that not devalue the genre?

[Guest oldeschool17]

why was dye/red paint used for blood in shaw bros movies? It looked so unrealistic compared to other movies during that era that used blood. Was it that much of a budget constraint?

[Guest Chinatown Kid]

I love the dubs and it doesn't make anyone any less of a fan that does like the dubs! Sub fans shouldn't look down their noses at dub fans and think they are better, it's all a personal preference. May everyone watch these films as they prefer and respect other's preferences that differ from theirs. Can I get an Amen!?

[Guest Cesare]

Amen.

Though I gotta say I hated the dubs I've seen so far... I'm not even an English native speaker, so the English dubs generally suck as far as I'm concerned - but I guess it's a matter of everyone's personal preference. ;-)

[Guest Chinatown Kid]

Thanks Cesare, and I can understand where your coming from as the dubs aren't everybody's cup of tea.

[Guest vengeanceofhumanlanterns]

When dubs are done well they're great. It's a words spoken match the facial expressions of the eyes kinda synching with the lips if possible and when the voice "somewhat" fits the face kinda thing and you stop paying attention to the outta synch lip movements that makes eng dubs work for me. Though they aren't very consistent with the voice fits the face thang, "but still then, you god damn bastard !"

[Iron_Jinon]

It´s not that big deal for me...original language with subtitles is better but Shaw Movies are almost always dubbed decently so can easily watch those also.

[Kung Foolery]

Bad english dubs are better than chinese dubs with bad subtitles any day of the week in my book.

[chen lung]

Bad english dubs are better than chinese dubs with bad subtitles any day of the week in my book.

That's what I do if the option is there .

[The Dragon]

I'm quite accustomed to Shaw dubbs, most of my entire VHS collection of SB titles are dubbs. However, when the Celestial remasters arrived sporting original language tracks, i instantly developed an interest in them. It made viewing the titles like the first time all over again.

Sometimes the subbs have a different meaning altogether, and I respect the culture enough to try and understand various aspects, sometimes lost in translation...

[venoms5]

To continue where we left off...

Quote from Morgoth--Well we just strongly disagree here. that's all. I think it would be really cheesy if they had English guys trying to do Chinese accents.

How is that cheesy when the voice actor attempts to correlate the voice with the performer? You're saying that all those thick anglo accents married to a Chinese actors lip movement isn't?

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I just don't think it would sound right. I think it would sound better if they had Chinese people speaking English. But, the only movie where I've heard that work in was Undaunted Wudang. I'm sure there's other good dubs where Asians speak English, but Undaunted Wudang is the only thing I can think of right now. And of course it's just opinions. I remember discussing the Undaunted Wudang dub before and some people didn't like it for the very reason that I do like it.

[venoms5]

I think it would sound better if they had Chinese people speaking English.

This is sort of what I'm talking about. Those Godzilla movies I mentioned, or even Sonny Chiba's STREET FIGHTER for instance, that had dubbers using an accent to sound more Japanese were praised for their attempts to bring an added air of realism to the voice performances.

Again, this is my opinion and you have yours but there's no way I'm ever being convinced that a dub is superior to the original language. If that was the case, then all these things would have been shot in English. And I don't think nostalgia always plays into it either. A lot of people simply don't want to be bothered with reading subtitles.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

A lot of people simply don't want to be bothered with reading subtitles.

This is probably a big reason why people like dubs, but for me it's just a small reason. If I don't like the English dub, I will gladly switch language tracks and read the subs.

[oldeschool17]

A lot of people simply don't want to be bothered with reading subtitles.

I guess people want to shut off that part of their brain.

[venoms5]

I will say this, I much prefer a dub of an Italian western than to see it subbed. Considering those movies are about a distinct time in American History, they benefit from being dubbed in English. I can see them either way, but in English is preferred. Those movies are often shot in English either phonetically or otherwise. Sometimes, the actors would simply repeat the alphabet or just say numbers.

[Yakuza954]

I prefer reading subtitles, but I understand that people have their nostalgia for dubs. I also have a friend who isn't that good of a reader so he understands the movies better with dubs. The only thing that bothers me is when people refuse to watch a movie unless its dubbed. I mean, the most important thing is watching the movie period, isn't it? If you're a real fan of these movies you'd be glad to watch these films with subtitles or dubs; just whatever's available at the time.

The dub argument between venoms and morgoth is also something I've thought about before. The problem I have with American dubs with characters using Chinese accents is that the original characters in the films have no such accents from other countries and are speaking their own fluent language. I would understand the reasoning for using Chinese-American accents if say, the characters in the original film were speaking Chinese with an accent from another country, but that's not the case here. These characters are speaking their own native tounge normally, and when it's all translated into English it should be vice versa; the voice dubbers should be speaking their own english normally.

Example: The Miramax dub for Hero. The English voice actor who does Jet Li's voice has an obvious Asian American accent and sounds like someone who picked up English as a second language. His english is broken throughout and makes a lot of the dialogue sound ridiculous. This is just not a faithful interpretation of Jet Li's original character--someone who has an authority and presence about him, both in how he presents himself and how he speaks his own native language (which he does not trip over as he speaks). This brings me to another point: many times when these dubs are done with stereotypical Chinese-American accents they come off as offensive more than anything else. Can anyone imagine what it'd be like if Simon Yuen's voice actor in Snake in the Eagle's Shadow had a Mr. Miyagi accent? Or if Gordon Liu's character in 36th Chamber of Shaolin sounded like he had just picked up the English language yesterday? It would ruin the original intention of the film and just thinking about it makes me cringe, but sadly, thats usually the kind of stuff that happens when english dubs are done with Asian accents in mind. I would feel the same way if Spanish-language films were done with Mexican-American Accents or Bengali films done with Indian-American accents; it just doesn't add up. And yes, not all dubs like this turn out offensive (even though the great majority do) and some actually have voice actors that can act out their lines. However, these voice actors are still chosen based on their nationality, i.e, we need a Chinese voice actor because this is a Chinese film; when in reality, the voice actor should be chosen based on their ability to best portray the character at hand, and not because of a superficial similarity in nationality in a situation where it shouldn't even matter.

[oldeschool17]

The only thing that bothers me is when people refuse to watch a movie unless its dubbed. I mean, the most important thing is watching the movie period, isn't it? If you're a real fan of these movies you'd be glad to watch these films with subtitles or dubs; just whatever's available at the time.

Yeah those people are idiots and don't deserve to watch those movies.Im glad they get to miss out on a good movie.

[vonhumboldtfleisher]

I know this has been pointed out before several times, but the whole notion of "original language" when it comes to HK movies is something of a joke. The vast, vast majority of HK movies were written and performed in Cantonese, and then dubbed into Mandarin, a language most HK natives couldn't speak or understand any better than we can speak or understand Cantonese. They're shot without sound and dubbed into Mandarin by performers other than the ones you see on the screen (Roy Chiao, for instance, used to make a decent living dubbing Jimmy Wang Yu). Even when they started shooting in Cantonese again in the 80s (thanks mostly to the success of the Hui brothers' Canto comedies), they were still shot entirely without sound and dubbed later by whoever the studio could get at the time.

So the case for 'authenticity' isn't really as clear-cut with HK films as much as they are with, say, Japanese or Italian films, and if you're going to be accurate about it, you really have to refer to the 'original' language versions of HK classic kung fu movies as 'Mandarin dubs'.

I have no objection to subtitles whatsoever, and I do think it's ridiculous when people simply refuse to watch a film unless it's dubbed, but it's an absurdity to insist that watching an English dub is a less culturally authentic experience than watching a Mandarin dub with English subtitles plastered over it. As for those dub jobs in which the English language dubbing artists try to sound more 'Chinese' or 'Japanese', (usually by pronouncing the occasional 'r' as an 'l', and tossing in the odd "ah so")they usually sound like completely ridiculous stereotypes, even moreso than the performances much-maligned Mr. Moto and Charlie Chan movies of a supposedly less culturally enlightened era.

[venoms5]

As for those dub jobs in which the English language dubbing artists try to sound more 'Chinese' or 'Japanese', (usually by pronouncing the occasional 'r' as an 'l', and tossing in the odd "ah so")they usually sound like completely ridiculous stereotypes, even moreso than the performances much-maligned Mr. Moto and Charlie Chan movies of a supposedly less culturally enlightened era.

I'm not talking about WHAT'S UP TIGER LILY? here. Yeah, the dubbing of a Chinese performance using a thick British/Australian/(insert other Anglo nationality here) makes much more sense.....

The fact that the dubbers DON'T SOUND CHINESE is one of the things people not normally infatuated with the films have pointed out when watching one of these movies (which after 5 minutes, they're ready to shut it off); not just the bad dubbing, but that they're clearly orientals yet they "speak" fluent (sometimes deeply accented) English. And the use of "Ah, so" is supposed to be racist yet "But still", is preferable? Both are used for the same purpose. But if you've ever spoken with, or listened to a Chinese conversation, the speech is filled with lots of "Ah's" and "Ai ya's" so how that is deemed as racist is a bit lost on me.

And during that time, Mandarin was more widely spoken than Cantonese.