Shaw dubs:I like them, you hate them. Let's talk about it

[Guest oldeschool17]

yeah the dubbing on legendary weapons sucks. I was watching the image release of that and often resorted to reading the subtitles. I dunno how to describe it, but its almost as though you expect them to call each other Steve and John. That probably made no sense, but hopefully someone understands what im trying to say. lol

speaking of dubbing, i always found the dubbing on 5 element ninjas in the beginning rather funny. I havent watched it in awhile, but its on the good guys side(maybe the one that actually kills himself for losing to the samurai) who has a rather annoying high pitched voice. I laugh my ass off when i hear that dubbers voice.

[Guest venomchamber]

Those two movies had the same voice overs.

But still, they can't compare with the all-time worst dubbing ever from Chang Cheh's The Nine Demons (released by Ocean Shores) where the names were changed to Gary and Joey of the Johnson estate, cockney accents and all!!!!

What the hell were those wankers thinking? :x

...and everyone thinks the 70s dubs were bad, most of the 80s ones were worse :x and made me long for the old ones!

Hey, has anyone ever seen a Mandarin version of 9 Demons around? Does such a print exist anymore? (Too bad Celestial didn't get it instead of that Bruce Li junk.)

[Guest oldeschool17]

ive never seen 9 demons, but ive read nothing but horrible reviews on it, and mainly reasons stemming from the horrible dubbing you just mentioned

[Guest peringaten]

But still, they can't compare with the all-time worst dubbing ever from Chang Cheh's The Nine Demons (released by Ocean Shores) where the names were changed to Gary and Joey of the Johnson estate, cockney accents and all!!!!

What the hell were those wankers thinking?

Best. Dub. Crew. Ever.

Love that one. Same team that did those OS Pearl flicks it seems. Being honest, the only dub crew I actually like. Being serious. To each their own.

Subs or that crew... that's my bag.

[Guest Tosh]

No it isn't, the facts spoke for themselves.

FYI: I made no negative comment toward any race, so stop trying to instigate trouble by pulling something out of context.

Did you not say Caucasian audiences where kept away from these movies till CTHD? Sorry but I don't believe I took your comment out of context, now if you wanted to take a personal dig at running man, whatever, but there's no need to stick the entire Caucasion race in there.

You state your opinion as fact, but I see a major flaw in your fact, I have a hard time believing these "Bigoted distributors" gave two rats-asses about the moral fiber of the white community, all they see is money$$$, these movies were shot on a shoestring budget, filmed in 6 weeks and usually people were shooting 3-4 films at a time, quality suffers, and this puts them in a b movie catagory when it came to competing against Hollywood at the time.

And just what were they trying to hide from the Caucasion audience? Where there not just as many violent films playing in the mainstream movie theaters back in the early 70's? Movies about violence, sex, and drugs were common then (Exoricest?) before they got all crazy with the rating system and started making everything pg13. Anyways, their diabolical plan failed because I started watching these movies on tv and the drive ins back in the late 70's.

[Barsader]

I Prefer Sub-titles at all times.

But Dubs are great for times of past.Before i knew the names

of individuals i would go by their voices(Talking about mainly

venoms flicks here)

Come to think of it i suppose i would prefer dubs for all the movies i remember watching back on TV in the 80's.

1st time watch would always prefer Subs.

[Guest venomchamber]

another one. :rolleyes

Firstly, I did not say anything negative (read: bad) about any race. I commented on how we were deprived of casual viewing due to the nature of the locale these movies were eventually regulated to.

Did you not say Caucasian audiences where kept away from these movies till CTHD? Sorry but I don't believe I took your comment out of context, now if you wanted to take a personal dig at running man, whatever, but there's no need to stick the entire Caucasion race in there.

Your comprehension is bad.

You make it sound like they were physically restrained or something! I never said "ENTIRE CAUCASIAN RACE" so stop putting words in my mouth.

No, they chose to see Crouching Tiger because it was trendy (and safe) to do so at the multiplex. How do I know? Because I actually asked them!

Q: "What brings you here to see this?"

A: "I've like Michelle Yeoh ever since I saw her in Supercop!"

and "I've liked Chow Yun-Fat ever since my boyfriend showed me his Hard-Boiled video!" and so on.

Stop picking a fight because I debated with your buddy.

I have no problem with Running Man...everyone is entitled to an opinion. Besides, enough has been said about that subject. We both made our points. We disagree on a few things, so leave it at that. OK instigator?

You state your opinion as fact, but I see a major flaw in your fact, I have a hard time believing these "Bigoted distributors" gave two rats-asses about the moral fiber of the white community, all they see is money$$$

The term 'bigoted distributors' is my opinion as it was they who profiled the attendance of their films (listen to the narration on some of the later trailers) and the managers of the theaters that chose not to show them so as to avoid undesirable riff-raff from entering their establishments. I was informed of that little fact personally by the manager of the Oceana movie theater on Brighton Beach Avenue in Brooklyn (which is now closed and has since been turned into a Russian restaurant).

Of course all they saw was the $$$! duh! Who said anything about 'the moral-fiber of the white community'? They went where the money was, and do you think there was money to be made by showing Chang Cheh's Street Gangs Of Hong Kong (nudge-nudge) in the white community of any 'pleasantville' in 1973? No. So they moved them to the grindhouses which were usually located in the redlight district (read: porno & prostitution) where they made lots of money! Everybody knows that. Go ask Quentin Tarantino.

(Note: Street Gangs Of Hong Kong was actually one of the few SB films to play nationwide, but at Flagship Theaters which had a contract with Cinerama Releasing.)

The majority of white people here at the time just didn't go see Shaw Brothers movies, but they did go see Godzilla movies which have been playing in mainstream theaters since the '50s with a new audience that grew-up with them on the 4:30 movie. I can also tell you that in 1985, they came back, and this time they brought their kids.

And just what were they trying to hide from the Caucasion audience?

Nothing. Again, what makes you think I said they were deliberately hiding something from us?

When movies don't make money, the theater stops showing them. Got it? These (Chinese) films made no money in 'pleasantville' theaters, so out they went and in came The Bad News Bears and The Apple Dumpling Gang. I should know, I was there and you weren't, so stop trying to tell me what I saw and where I saw it when you have no idea what you're talking about. You don't know me or the theaters I went to.

Where there not just as many violent films playing in the mainstream movie theaters back in the early 70's? Movies about violence, sex, and drugs were common then (Exoricest?) before they got all crazy with the rating system and started making everything pg13. Anyways, their diabolical plan failed because I started watching these movies on tv and the drive ins back in the late 70's.

Yes there were, and that's exactly what they went to see instead of Shaw Brothers kung-fu movies silly!

They went to see Charles Bronson in Death Wish, Clint Eastwood in The Enforcer and Roger Moore in The Man With The Golden Gun instead at posh theaters, leaving people like myself to see them at run down theaters like The Duffield.

Kung-Fu movies at the time were rated R and one of them, Sonny Chiba's The Street Fighter opened with an X. (Still think they played in the same family-oriented theater as Herbie Goes To Monte Carlo?) The violence seen in these films regulated them to areas whose customers were as brutal as the films they went to see.

So again, as an example, here's one of my favorite newspaper clippings.

You can see for yourself the areas this, one of the venoms' films, played in. Rough areas all and not for the timid I assure you. Then again, if you're not from New York City, then you'll have no idea what I'm trying to prove and I'd be wasting my time even discussing this with you.

These theaters had good box-office, but not from your average 'Richie Cunningham'-type who went to 34th Street to see Grease instead. BUT, he did get to see this on TV when it was broadcast on Drive-In Movie a few years later!

[Guest Tosh]

First of all I'm not trying to start an arguement, your the one getting all defensive over your conspiracy theory, I just pointed out that your comment was less than appropriate.

Second I'm not putting words in your mouth, your the one talking about little white girls with blonde curls, dreamlands and Ritchie Cunningham types, keep throwing stereotypes though.

Third, wtf does this have to do with CTHD again?

Forth, I'm glad you live in NY, and are old enough to of seen these movies in the theaters, but you've relagated this whole conversation to your little part of the world.

[Guest vengeanceofhumanlanterns]

Not in Scandinavia and you cannot compare the quality of European and American dubs, European dubs are made by professionals actors.

Le Peril Juane, I'm not too informed with european dubs but the english dubs are actually done by chinese (I;m not so sure they're even actors or not) people in china. As an extra on a DVD there was a documentary on the history of Shaw Brothers Filming Co. They actually showed these chinese people at the Shaws studios while they were dubbing a shaw flick. The documenary was extremely informative and very interesting. Not saying that more recent releases are'nt being dubbed by companies indigenous to their respective countries. Just thought you'd be interested in that little bit of info.

Does anyone know if Shaw flick euro-dubs are definitely done by europeans or does it sound otherwise? I'd be interested in knowing.

[Guest vengeanceofhumanlanterns]

venomchamber, you've got to take it easy brother. :smokin

[Guest venomchamber]

I'm not trying to start an arguement, your the one getting all defensive over your conspiracy theory, I just pointed out that your comment was less than appropriate.

I'm not defensive, just protective of my interests when I detect slander. You are too politically-correct and are not willing to accept the truth. Did you not see the ad I posted? You my ask anyone to confirm the location of these theaters and they can tell you that they were indeed located in areas high in gangland activity, and some of these areas still are, but nearly everyone put aside their differences and bonded when it came to watching kung-fu movies which I always thought was great!

There are several books and magazines that can confirm this, as well as many filmmakers and fans. I am surprised you are not aware of these facts.

I'm glad you live in NY, and are old enough to of seen these movies in the theaters, but you've relagated this whole conversation to your little part of the world.

New York is the largest city in America. That is a fact, so I wouldn't go so far as to say my "little part of the world".

It may be small geographically, but the population is a hundred times larger than that of the plains of Kansas for instance. (Check with the census bureau if you deny this fact too.)

I am sure there were and still are more kung-fu movie watching people in New York City than say for example the entire state of Utah. or Idaho. or Wyoming. or Bismark North Dakota. or perhaps maybe, just maybe all of these states combined.

I wish you could have experienced seeing these in a NY theater back in the day just for the thrill of it. :eek

If what you believe was true, then kung-fu movies would have remained box-office smashes and never have faded from the limelight.

...and yes, I did say box-office smashes, and if they weren't so in your area, I rest my case.

wtf does this have to do with CTHD again?

That this film (and the others since) reached more people in the American mainstream theatrically than the Shaw films of the 70s & 80s did.

The key word is mainstream.

That is all.

Sincerest Regards and Good Afternoon. 8)

[Guest Chen Zhen]

very well spoken venomchamber...lots of good insight.

[Guest BKarza]

"That this film (and the others since) reached more people in the American mainstream theatrically than the Shaw films of the 70s & 80s did.

The key word is mainstream."

True. Very true but... CTHD was a film with Sony behind it, made for the west and the critics and the art house crowd, shooting/aiming for the Oscar. They also went wu xia and not fu.(notice all of the Oscar wanters do wu xia) Shaws were never ever made with anything other than the asian market in mind.

Although a lot of the movies(Shaw and indie) played in theaters, their real draws were the tv packages. Everyone saw those. That certainly wasn't group focused.

[Guest gfanikf]

I feel Mighty Peking Man was made for the West. Look at the credits and the fact they even give DeWoulf credit for the soundtrack.

[Guest killer meteor]

Yeah, and look what happened there!

Seriously, does anyone know how Mighty Peking Man AKA Goliathon did at both the HK and US box office?

[Guest teako170]

Wow. What an engaging thread. Might I play? Okay, I'm new at this so .... dubs suck, subs suck, I suck, you suck, they suck, we suck. (phew!) Hopefully I've offended everyone now. 8o

But seriously, not to hijack the thread, I want to say thanks to VC for posting the clippings. Had no idea those films (or any Shaws) ever played the RKO Fordham.

Now, to those who weren't old enough (or perhaps never lived in NYC), the RKO Fordham was one of those palatial cinema houses of yesteryear. It was demolished in '87 but right down the road, on the Grand Concourse, The Loews Paradise Theate is still around. These theaters were a-mazing! Back in the 70s, to see such films as Star Wars, Close Encounters, Apocalypse Now in such a grand venue was truly awe-inspiring.

Like I said, I never saw any Shaws in those theaters - normally saw them downtown in the seedy land called Times Square - but just to imagine what it might have been like ... wow. Thanks for the trip down memory lane VC.

[Guest venomchamber]

Wow teako170...that's a great pic of the Fordham back in the 50s! :eek

Its sad they demolished theaters like that instead of preserving them for their heritage in favor of cold, generic multiplexes.

Thanks for sharing.

[Guest sevenhooks]

Wow. It's amazing how this one topic never seems to die.

I've been gone for a minute and last time I was here I was getting into it with Mr. Running Man over essentially the same thing.

And what I perceived to be elitism, snobbery, self righteousness, arrogance and condescension on his behalf has come to light yet again.

Just so you don't get it twisted and think that I'm some illiterate yokel with no "respect" for this genre, let this be known...

I am someone who has spent a good part of my life going to see these films - starting in the theaters in the very late 70's, then on television and on video throughout the 80's and 90's and through the present day.

For nearly THIRTY YEARS I've spent (and continue to spend) not only a great deal of time, but a good chunk of my income on the films that I love. Not just kung fu films mind you, but specifically SHAW BROTHERS films.

I've been an avid collector of Southern Screen magazine since I first started watching these movies and other than say Seaton Chang or Victor Lim, I'd say with great confidence that I have one of the largest collections of the Shaw house zine in the western hemisphere.

Same goes with my lobby card and poster collection - all of which I've documented here on the boards over the years.

I've gone on to purchase well over 300 Celestial/ILV DVD titles since they first started releasing them.

I've done more than anyone else I know in terms of identifying and cataloging the music used in Shaw films by scouring soundtrack specialty shops throughout the world and buying up every year appropriate DeWolfe (and related) library lp I can get my hands on - resulting in the IDing of nearly 400 familiar songs, themes and cues heard in Shaw films over the years.

Besides bitch and moan about english dubs and suggest that those who really care for them are not real fans, what sort of real contribution have you ever made for the fandom?

Or to just this board even?

When's the last time you contributed rare scans or mp3s?

I love these movies plain and simple. And always will.

But to suggest that simply because I PREFER to enjoy my Shaw films dubbed in english, that somehow my respect for the genre is not real???

Particularly coming from YOU?!

GTFOOHWTB.

Point blank.

[Guest sevenhooks]

After going through the rest of your posts in this thread, allow me to respond....

It terms of this subject of Shaw Brother dubs and other dubs of films from this era, I feel they are a big black cloud over the history and respect the genre has struggled to gain in the West.

I seriously beg to differ.

I respect these films as much, if not more than, anyone I know.

And yes, I also LOVE the dubs.

I also know plenty of other fans who feel the same way I do.

At some point perhaps it might dawn on you that not everyone thinks the same way you do.

And that's actually a good thing.

Having been an avid theater goer in NY and Boston during the cusp of the golden years of kung fu cinema, I'm well aware of the "history" of the genre here.

As well as how these films were perceived by the masses.

Comparitively speaking, the dubs from Shaw were FAR better than the dubs from other studios of the day and actually improved in the late 70's (falling off completely in the 80's).

Again, as with your missives, this is but my opinion. But a well informed and educated one all the same.

You seem to imply that if it were simply not for the dubs, these films would have had a better chance of success in the states.

Wrong.

As pointed out before, these films played in action track theaters in urban areas. Ghettos.

Only super die hards would indulge in these movies with subtitles (as I can attest to when 8 Diagram Pole Fighter played the Duece after it's initial chinatown run - subtitles and all).

The "general population" as it were, had plenty other issues aside from the dubbing.

Not the least of which would be the very rules and mythology behind the genre itself.

ie: "How come when 50 guys are fighting the one hero, all 50 guys don't attack at once?? Why do they go at him one at a time??! That's just stupid!"

"How is this guy still fighting 100+ people after 15 minutes with a hatchet stuck in his belly??! That's just stupid!"

Seriously.

We could start a whole new thread dedicated to similar gripes from friends I tried to turn on to these films.

Many of my friends (mostly black friends interestingly enough) did like them and we spent many a weekday afternoon dodging truant officers at some of these theaters.

Most others however, just weren't buying it.

They thought these movies were generally, well... stupid.

The dubbing, believe me, while perhaps an issue, was the VERY least of it.

The dubbing could've been perfect or even in an all-chinese speaking world, the elusive "respect" for these films that you speak of would still not exist.

Not in the US.

Not back then.

I do not have a problem with people liking them and enjoying them. I only have a problem with the idea that little is at fault with those dubs and that those dubs are generally well made. That what I was arguing and I have felt I have expressed in my posts which unfortunately got shuffled within all the other comments of other's thoughts about the subject in general.

Okay. I think by now, it's quite obvious how you feel about the dubs.

But where you f#ck up and offend people here is when you take what is essentially your personal OPINION and present it as undeniable fact.

THEN, you compound the faux pas by implying... no scratch that.... ASSERTING that anyone who doesn't buy into your logic has "no respect" for the genre.

That clearly goes beyond the pale.

IE...

If you really believe that those horrendous dub jobs are good or how these movies should be, then you don't respect the genre.

THAT's where folks, understandably so, see you as coming off as elitist and snobbish.

These are "horrendous" to YOU.

Not only do I have no problem with them and happen to enjoy a good majority of them - I also think that many of them (particular the pre 1980 dubs) are (shocker) done exceptionally well.

FAR better than their chinese counterparts.

And guess what? That is NOT up for debate with me.

I do not like them because I enjoy laughing at them or dig them on some silly, superficial level.

I like them and enjoy them on their own merits.

Not to mention that my "respect" for Shaw Brothers films in general goes a whole lot deeper than you could ever imagine.

And that's NOT up for debate either.

Unlike your view on the dubs, that is not an opinion.

If you felt that my posts were elisits or attacked any one of you, I can only say that wasn't the intention of those posts and I apologize. However, such is the result of being in forums and people sometimes have the tendency to come worse than what they actually mean.

If you say so.

[Guest killer meteor]

I think one of the stengths of the kung fu genre is that it is so kinetic and wonderfully visual, it doesn't matter if you end up watching it in Esperanto

The bad dubbing being a limitation to the films probably oringates from TV broadcasts. Stripped of the scope photography, running time and violence, the kung fu film can look poor under such circumstances

[Linn1]

Sorry to bring this back up, but anyone taking down what this guy's saying as gospel should forget it. Everything I've read appears made up, and this has been backed up by a few people. If you remember a certain guy that created a fake Godfrey Ho site a few years ago, I believe it's the same person.

Quote:Any post by Wanchaitransit should be considered BULLSHIT and filled with fake and useless information that has no connection to reality.

[Guest Chen Zhen]

always leave it to my man Sevenhooks to once again be the voice of reason. 100% cosign

but im afraid that u (and i for that matter) may have wasted our time with those responses....cuz i wholeheartedly doubt that itll sink in for him, and im positive that this exact same debate will respawn in a few months, if not, sooner.

[Guest HAZ74]

Maybe the main reason I find dubs lousy is because they kinda pasteurize the movie. These are Chinese movies. They represent a different culture, and provide us with a window on to a different world. I don't need to force my culture & language on top of this experience. I think its a very western need to take something from another country & manipulate it so that it becomes similar to what you already know. In the west, we like things to conform to our standards. I also wouldn't be surprised to find out that its mostly Americans that like dubs because Americans seem to dislike anything that isn't english - look at the great Spanish debate in your country - and they don't go for the "ching choing" or whatever ignorant things they say to mock foreign languages.

Also, If people haven't picked up any Mandarin or Cantonese after watching these movies for years, then I feel kind of sorry for you.

Just my 2 cents.

h

[Guest oldeschool17]

Also, If people haven't picked up any Mandarin or Cantonese after watching these movies for years, then I feel kind of sorry for you.

is that an insult coated in sarcasm? who are you to judge people for not having the ability to learn mandarin/cantonese? Im sorry some of us dont have that as a priority in our lives. Yeah and what better way to get well versed in mandarin and cantonese than with a shaw brothers film subtitled in complete accuracy! gimme a break

Kinda off topic, I dunno if this was mentioned yet but did anybody catch that botched dub job in Ten Tigers of Kwantung. When Kuo Choi and Chiang Sheng go to the gambling hall and run into Lo Meng. The voice for chiang sheng changes in the middle of his conversation with lo meng. I thought that was rather odd

[Guest HAZ74]

Oh, they're not subtitled in accuracy. That's what's cool about many of the resources that we have today to help us learn. Like I always saw the phrase "Ta Ma De" translated as @#%$. Type it in a search engine, though, and you learn other things. Its not rocket science. If you've watched these films for 10, 20 years & don't know what Ni Hao means, then its kind of funny/sad.