Shaw dubs:I like them, you hate them. Let's talk about it

[Guest SunChien2004]

I like the English dubs especially with the Celestial Remakes. It's easier to watch with a group of friends, rather than looking at subs for an hour and a half, but that's just my preferences. I noticed most usually prefer the English dubs, at least here in NYC.

[Guest killer meteor]

Can you name 1 film that had to be re-dubbed because it was unreleasable?

The Big Boss.

[Guest Kwok Choi]

Sorry bobo I don't have them but I've shown them in theatres.I have been involved in cinemas one way or the other all my life so this is where most of my knowledge of these movies stem from.Try Linn, TanTao2, Falkor, BruceLong, Sevenhooks, Easternfreak and some other respectable collectors on this forum they might be able to help.

[Guest Dion Brother]

I do believe critics trashed these movies for prejudiced reasons. I recall seeing Roger Ebert and Gene Siskel trash these films, and not because of their dubbing. It was their mere "orientalism" that gave these hacks a license to pan them. They didn't accept the action sequences because they failed to understand the superhero myth element these films utilize. Roger only likes INFRA-MAN because he's a sci-fi nerd. Same goes for other critics, who simply ignored them. This includes all the uber nerd fan writers for sci-fi zines like CINEFANTASTIQUE.

The people I knew who didn't like these films because of dubbing just wanted a reason not to watch anything foreign or they simply just didn't like action movies. They wouldn't watch them if they were subtitled or well-dubbed...they simply didn't want to watch a movie of asians. Bruce Lee was the odd exception. They'd even watch his dubbed movies, but it was the case of thinking "here's the best there is, why watch any other of those other chinks." (and yeah, I hate that word as well, I was given @#%$ growing up for liking "Chink" movies. Funny how the world has changed.).

If you met someone who didn't like Godzilla movies, usually it was because they were some Harryhausen purists offended by the mere concept of man-in-suit fx , thinking stop motion was the only way to portray giant monsters. "Dubbing" was simply another excuse for these snobs, as if the acting in Harryhausen's movies wasn't so stiff you'd swear they were dubbed (except JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS of course).

When Black Belt Theater was pulled, and I resorted to trading for kung fu movies, all of my traders were middle-aged black family men. I think some of them post here. Cool guys. But as soon as the Incredibly Strange Film Show aired the Jackie Chan episode, my phone rang off the hook from anime geeks wanting "subtitled only" Shaw films. And if given a choice between untranslated movies or dubbed editions, they'd rather have it without a translation. @#%$ trust fund losers.

I like the "But Still" dubbers, don't care for the others. And the team that did SPARTAN X was great. And I like the Peter Fernandez's crew work on the Toho and Toei movies. But I do agree with RM's hatred of dubtitles. Wish I still had my Taiwanese subtitled tape of HARDBOILED. I'm convinced those were the best subtitles for that film.

But VenomChamber is 100% correct. He says many of the same things i've been saying in other forums for years. Dubbing didn't keep these films in the ghettos. The grindhouse audiences just accepted these movies with open arms. The hayseeds and stuffy white liberals couldn't be bothered with these films because of their own prejudice. Luckily the younger generations are growing up without these prejudices. But it was a different filmgoing society in the 1970s United States.

[Guest GwaiLoMoFo]

I haven't called anyone here names nor I have told anyone that I hope they leave this forum.

No you didnt call names, you just belittled peoples thoughts/opinions/preferences. Saying we have "no respect", are "ignorant", or "have been fooled" (I guess making us foolish) into thinking a certain way. And you say I have alot of nerve?! :rolleyes

On the other hand I agree it was hypocritical of me to call you "Running Mouth Man", for that I apologise.

Moving on now...

[Guest Le Peril Jaune]

The movies are set in China, with Chinese people, using Chinese fighting styles and weapons, with Chinese buildings and teahouses, and Chinese clothes, eating Chinese food, and having Chinese social customs and culture. Why would they be speaking English?

Spot on!!! I hate all dubs, they're completely unnatural to me.

Also, in my country everything is subbed except films/programs aimed at children too young to being able to read properly, only then are dubs made or a narrator added. When you're used to subtitles you don't notice them unless they're badly done.

IMO dubs make good movies bad and bad movies worse.

[Guest Dion Brother]

On the other hand, most European countries preferred the movies dubbed in their languages. I had a huge collection of German-dubbed Shaws and English dubbed Shaws from Holland, so any accusations of how dumb Americans are for liking dubs back in the 70s coming from Euro-snobs are hypocritical.

[Guest Le Peril Jaune]

On the other hand, most European countries preferred the movies dubbed in their languages.

Not in Scandinavia and you cannot compare the quality of European and American dubs, European dubs are made by professionals actors.

so any accusations of how dumb Americans are for liking dubs back in the 70s coming from Euro-snobs are hypocritical.

What an UTTERLY STUPID remark>: .

[Guest venomchamber]

so any accusations of how dumb Americans are for liking dubs back in the 70s coming from Euro-snobs are hypocritical.

Yes, I agree that calling Americans "dumb" for liking dubs

is a bit arrogant and is an opinion that strikes a political nerve that does not belong on this post.

What an UTTERLY STUPID remark .

Yes, this was in poor taste.

America has been one of the largest importers of Asian films in the world and spawned millions of fans who grew up with them.

Other countries dub these same films into their own language to suit their needs and in other words, David Chiang speaking French or Ti Lung speaking German sounds as bizarre to us as the old English dubs sound to them.

Nobody ever said Europeans were dumb for dubbing them into their own languages, did they?

FYI: as a collector, I have copies of tapes from all over Europe and I never complained about the foreign dubbing or how cut-up they are. I was just grateful to watch them!

So please, show a little respect.

[Guest venomchamber]

VenomChamber is 100% correct. He says many of the same things i've been saying in other forums for years.

Thank you. Atleast someone understands the point I was trying to make.

[Guest venomchamber]

The Big Boss.

That particular post was referring to the Godzilla series as it was previously stated that American companies had to redub them just to make them releasable.

There was only 1 (one) company that did that and it wasn't because the dubs were bad, but because they had no Japanese accents.

(*I wish now that I just said that instead of the long posts.)

'nuff said.

[Guest Le Peril Jaune]

Venomchamber, I was referring to Dion Brother calling Europeans "snobs" and claiming we think Americans are "dumb". If we think they are, it's because of chauvinists like him!

[Guest venomchamber]

Gotcha.

No problemo, mon ami!

Hey...I'll see ya around on eBay Le Peril Jaune!

God Afternoon

[Guest Le Peril Jaune]

And good evening from here;) .

[Guest killer meteor]

There was only 1 (one) company that did that and it wasn't because the dubs were bad, but because they had no Japanese accents.

I've heard it was a quality issue. As dubs go, those were pretty shoddy. The Big Boss was redubbed for the same reasons.

[Guest Poelie]

I did not watch Shaws in the seventies, but in Holland nowadays there also is no love for dubs, wether it's cinema, tv or dvd.

[Guest Dion Brother]

"Not in Scandinavia and you cannot compare the quality of European and American dubs, European dubs are made by professionals actors."

Ever seen BARNEY MILLER? Hal Linden was a dub voice for Titra in the 1960s. Peter Fernandez appeared on ALL IN THE FAMILY, and was an experienced radio theater pro. Plus the great Paul Frees worked for Titra. James Hong and George Takei also did dub work in the 60s and 70s. I'm sure there's other interesting credits if you dig deep enough. So you've made a stupid and uninformed remark.

"What an UTTERLY STUPID remark . "

Why? If you come on here and imply anybody is dumb for preferring dubs, you are a snob. If you can accept that people have different reasons for watching a movie dubbed instead of subbed and your brain allows that concept to exist without a condescending or superior attitude, then we've got no problem. But you are making statements based on a lack of exposure or knowledge on the subject we are discussing.

And a large audience for kungfu movies are kids. So dubbing is an understandable marketing necessity.

[Guest Le Peril Jaune]

If you come on here and imply anybody is dumb for preferring dubs

Nobody has so wipe your eyes and stop making chauvinist remarks about Europeans!

USA has a dubbing culture so of course I'm aware that professional American actors have dubbing jobs, but they haven't exactly done much dubbing for Shaw films (or kung fu/wuxia films in general).

As for kung fu movies and children, I wouldn't show such violent films to young children but that's a completely different discussion.

[Guest Tosh]

Now that we got all the Eurosnubbing out of the way, I'm not sure why race came into this whole equation either...

You will also notice they mostly played in rough neighborhoods because of political correctness. These were literally kept away from caucasian audiences until a little film called Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon came along and changed all that

This comment is bs if I ever heard one|I

[Guest Austin Jones]

Nobody has so wipe your eyes and stop making chauvinist remarks about Europeans!

I was gonna jump in and say that I thought chauvinism was when one belittled women or felt that as a male they were superior. But then I checked a dictionary:

chau·vin·ism(shv-nzm)

n.

1. Militant devotion to and glorification of one's country; fanatical patriotism.

2. Prejudiced belief in the superiority of one's own gender, group, or kind

I was right...about male chauvinism. But without the "male" qualifier, Le Peril Jaune is spot-on. Thanks for allowing me to enlighten myself.

Play on...

Austin Jones

[Guest Dion Brother]

Children need to watch kungfu movies, because they need to learn that violence solves problems.

And the Shaw "But Still" crew rule it. Faithful, often accurate translations (especially compared to the IVL subtitles), surprisingly consistent voices for the actors, and the mouth movements match up about as well as the Mandarin dubs. And since their voices have rather strange continental accents, it sounds like, well, Shaw Bros. dubbing english.

Right then.

[Guest killer meteor]

I think kung fu films of the 70's could have had better dubbing. I find the Shaws dubbing to be entertaining but they used the likes of Titra studios, the product would have seemed more legitimatly good.

I'm not knocking the Shaws team, they're by far the best of the HK dubbers, but looking at train-wrecks like Chen Kuan-tai's voice in Heroes Two, and Chan Wei-man's in Shaolin Hand Lock, I can understand why people do not like dubs in general. Yes, it's funny, but it also serves to make the films look a bit silly. I can overlook that and so can many cult film enthusiasts, but novices may find it off-putting. Some people struggle with subtitles and so require a dub: that's no excuse for the dubs being lousy. I think that bad dubbing teams like the one that did Eagle's Claw and all those Korean/IFD movies played a part in limiting the quality of the film

[Guest Feng Gang]

I grew up on the dubs as well, and I'll admit there is a certain charm and nostalgia factor to them. And I think the Shaw dubs were generally pretty good.

But, I vastly prefer the subs, particularly with the Celestial releases. For me, it's simple: English dubs bring me out of the movie. The movies are set in China, with Chinese people, using Chinese fighting styles and weapons, with Chinese buildings and teahouses, and Chinese clothes, eating Chinese food, and having Chinese social customs and culture. Why would they be speaking English? I appreciate the effort the filmmakers made on every other level and with lots of attention to detail to convey the feel that the film is taking place in ancient China---the spoken language is just one more part of that, for me.

That pretty much sums it up. However it was meant to be spoken is how I want to hear it.

[Guest venomchamber]

Now that we got all the Eurosnubbing out of the way, I'm not sure why race came into this whole equation either...

You will also notice they mostly played in rough neighborhoods because of political correctness. These were literally kept away from caucasian audiences until a little film called Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon came along and changed all that

This comment is bs if I ever heard one

No it isn't, the facts spoke for themselves.

FYI: I made no negative comment toward any race, so stop trying to instigate trouble by pulling something out of context. I am not snobbing either, just the opposite. >:

After their initial release in 1973, these films became largely regulated to theaters in urban ethnic areas.

Don't hate me, hate the bigoted distributors of the films for doing so.

I was there, I know! I've been to the roughest areas of Brooklyn and the Bronx just to watch a few of these kung-fu movies (SB or not) back in the day.

In case you didn't know, there were NO multiplexes back then!

90% of these never played in fancy theaters in the garden and picket-fenced neighborhoods of Long Island or Upstate New York dominated by doctors, lawyers, and retired families. They were often played in areas filled with pimps, prostitutes and gang activity.

I have previously posted a couple of actual newspaper ads for you to see for yourself! Tell me if you see a whole slew of Beverly Hills-type theaters in those listings!

So you're going to tell me I was in a dreamland theater surrounded by a bunch of wholesome schoolkids with freckles and little blonde girls with curls?!? You've gotta be kidding me!

I sat in some of the seediest theaters with some of the vilest gangsters ever to walk the streets buddy! (and they all liked them dubbed too y'know!)

Its not bs, its a sad fact.

Maybe wherever you live they played in majestic palacial palaces, but here they were regulated to grindhouses.

Later, by the time the Jackie Chan films, the Jet Li films as well as Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon came out, they played anywhere and everywhere from malls to multiplexes and received a wider exposure than the older movies ever did.

...and that's a fact.

[Guest venomchamber]

I think kung fu films of the 70's could have had better dubbing. I find the Shaws dubbing to be entertaining but

(if)

they used the likes of Titra studios, the product would have seemed more legitimatly good.

Now that's a very interesting opinion, one that I would agree with.

If you've ever seen THE MAGIC SERPENT or THE LOST WORLD OF SINBAD (aka SAMURAI PIRATE) you'd get an idea of how they would have sounded.

Apparently AIP only used Titra for Japanese films, since they released THE SCREAMING TIGER with Jimmy Wang Yu in 1973 and kept the usual 70s dubbed voices found in most films (Shaw or otherwise) at that time, deeming it releasable as-is.

I'm not knocking the Shaws team, they're by far the best of the HK dubbers, but looking at train-wrecks like Chen Kuan-tai's voice in Heroes Two, and Chan Wei-man's in Shaolin Hand Lock, I can understand why people do not like dubs in general.

Yes I agree with you too. I never said there wasn't any mis-casting among the voice dubbers. Their studio director (or rather, engineer) should have paid more attention to voice casting and assigned key characters a recurring voice. For the most part, they did, especially in the Fu Sheng/venoms' cycle, until those bad dubbers came along (after Masked Avengers) starting with Flag Of Iron, and on to Martial Club, Legendary Weapons, Roar Of The Lion, Super Ninjas and Blast Of The Iron Palm...train wrecks all.

But here, to quote Running Man, I suppose is where the word hack comes into play as they churned-out dozens every year and had little or no regard for who played who, just get it done.

I don't blame the recording actors, but the people responsible for assigning them! They were just reciting what they were assigned to.

More often than not, the translations between dubs & subs are generally the same and rarely changed anything out of context unless there was serious editing done to the story.

Hiding out in a brothel in the subs or laying low in a whorehouse in the dubs conveys the same message to me.

Its just word substitution, but it basically means the same thing.

Actually, there are only about 3 voice actors I really like and I'm sure they are the same few everyone else* likes as well.

(*"everyone"= among the fans who like these, not the subs-only/dub-bashers crew.)