Shaw dubs:I like them, you hate them. Let's talk about it

[Guest Mantis FIST]

"since when were Shaw Brothers films ever considered a 'laughing stock'? "

Ask the Running man! :rollin

Check this out.. when the Heroic Grace festival came to town I went to see all the movies they showed. And sadly, lots of people laughed at the films! And guess what the were NOT english dubbed!!! I specifically remember the scene from One-Armed Swordsman where we see wang yu's dad die. People thought that was so funny when people where crying about his death! They laughed at other parts of the movies as well!

I could not understand why they did not take these movies seriously. I mean if it would have been a 'drama' and not a 'kung fu' movie I doubt people would have been laughing!

Back to the dubs! I bought all the DD and Image releases JUST to get the english dubs!!! I already had all the Lau films so those I bougt again!

I think all the 70's dubs that I've seen are GREAT! Some are corny voices but hey, that's what I expect!

[Guest GwaiLoMoFo]

Running (Mouth) Man, since when did your personal opinion on this (any) subject become gospel? Was there a vote or somthing I missed. So far from what Ive read you are the ONLY one who thinks "ALL Shaw dubs are complete crap". I guess somehow everybody else is wrong, or just not as smart as you (as usual). Someone as smart as you can recognize that .... "shoddy acting, suspect scriptwriting, plotholes, lack of realism, bathroom humour, red paint for blood, etc. all these things, contributed to its reputation". Imo, the dubs on some of these films are small problems in comparison. You sound as if you believe that they are the main reason for the genres lack of mainstream recognition. It isnt, and thats a FACT. Those other factors are much more damaging than the dubs.

Sometimes you make some good points and provide helpful information on topics. But it seems most of the time you just spit venom on other members opinons/posts. But then again Ive been around the forum for a while as well. Not really anything new here, you've a habit of flinging that big brain of yours at members like youre playing dodgeball. (It gets old)

[Guest The Running Man]

First of all, for whatever reason, my first reply on this thread has a "HTML Comments are not allowed " instead of the reply I had.

Is there a bug here Linn that keeps making it do that?

venomschamber,

Before you post your "fact", I suggest you check your information first before posting false information.

How was any of what I posted false information?

Yes, I'm well aware of the whole "too English" reason for the AIP/UPA redubs, but I've also heard that it was felt those original dubs were not good enough and many feel they were indeed better than the Toho produced dubs. This is a very similar reason as to why Sony redubbed Godzilla 2000.

Also, I clearly stated that, "In fact, those Godzilla dubs were so bad that for many of the American versions of those films, American companies had them redone just so they can be releasable."

I didn't say all. It's not a coincidence that GODZILLA VS MEGALON, GODZILLA VS GIGAN,

GODZILLA VS MECHAGODZILLA were all films that came out back to back and not a part of the whole AIP/UPA era of redubs.

I'll have you know that English dubbed Toho films have been extremely popular for decades among millions of fans worldwide and are not considered a laughing stock unless the film sucked

Were not considered laughing stocks and only when the movies sucked? That's definitely not a reality. While of course there are fans of those dubs, that does not mean there were no people there to think otherwise. Just reading reviews of Godzilla DVDs every now and then on some review sites I see those dubs pretty blasted and many of them are die hard Godzilla fans.

Here's two examples:

1

2

Both reviews are by two different people, for two different Godzilla movies that were given favorable reviews. Both in their sections on the dubs write, "Although I've seen most all of the Godzilla movies from this era over the years, this is the first time I've been able to ditch the laughably bad English dubs. " and "The film can be enjoyed in its original Japanese with bright yellow English subtitles, or in a bad "international" English dub best avoided. "

One more thing: since when were Shaw Brothers films ever considered a 'laughing stock'? When 5 Fingers Of Death, Duel Of The Iron Fist, Triple Irons, Street Gangs Of Hong Kong and 7 Blows Of The Dragon were all released in 1973-1974 nobody, and I mean nobody was laughing at them.

Nobody??

I think you need to stop including just your circle as everybody. It was a pretty common thing that many of the movies were giving harsh reviews critically and were looked down upon in mainstream pop culture. There's a big reason those films were largely regulated to grindhouses.

Now, I don't mind Mandarin or Cantonese, that's why I have over 400+ films from IVL so far. I just feel that Americans should be able to access prestine English dubbed versions rather that resort to bootlegs only.

And I never said that the opposite should be done, now did I?

And if you feel an English dub doesn't affect the buying power, then you are gravely mistaken my friend! Go to a video store and hang around for a while and watch what people pick-up...and put back on the shelf! I did!

For someone who suggested me to "check my information" you are sure one to start typing replies that bare no connection to the person they are directed to.

When did I ever in this thread say that I felt that the English dubs do not affect buying power??

Please go back and search for that quote.

In fact, I wrote the otherwise twice in this thread, but annoyingly, the second time I did was in a reply that now says "HTML Comments are not allowed".

[Guest The Running Man]

please direct me to a 70s kung fu movie that had a technical "good" dub. im all ears.

What does that have to do with anything?

Considering that many of the kung fu dubs from the 70s were done largely by the same people, what does that prove?

If you want to compare dubs of that era and before that were done better, then check out foreign films from other genres. Some of the spaghetti western films were dubbed a lot better than them.

obviously u completely missed my point. im not going to argue about the technical quality of the english dubs.

Well then you obviously missed my point, because that's what I was about since the get go.

did u even read any of my original post?? i clearly acknowledged that the dubs had a strong contribution to the bad image. but ur kidding urself if u truly believe that the dubs are the ONLY thing ppl make fun of kung fu movies about.

I sure did read your post, but you obviously aren't reading mine. I never said anything about it being the "ONLY thing". I said, "What's the very first thing people make fun of when they make fun of martial arts movies? "

uh, not quite. it may not have started as one, but it clearly turned into one rather quickly.

Uh....ummmm....... yes.....and quite so because that's what I am arguing period. Other people jumped into the thread based on the title and just made general comments about dubs in general and how they help sales and blah blah

that had nothing to do with what I was arguing about.

once again, i have no interest in discussing the technical aspects of what goes into a good dub....

Then we have nothing to discuss.

to myself and many, a good old school dub features many of the classic voices that everyone grew up with.

That's called "nostalgia".

and you need to get around to reading my posts more thoroughly before posting a response. correct me if im wrong, but i believe one of the first things i stated in my initial response was "did the dubs contribute to the poor image of the genre? absolutely".

Sure, but you continually downplay it's role in every one of your replies and then go against that by claiming that the dubs are good just cause you like them and whatever.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again. I have NO PROBLEM with people liking those dubs. I have NO PROBLEM with the dubs being on the DVDs. It's when people start talking as if these dubs are a great thing that have helped the genre and are genuinely well made that the problem starts. And that is the case because, regardless of what you feel in terms of nostalgia, the dubs were poorly made and yes it did have a negative effect on the genre.

but whats really impressive, Running Man, is how you've been fooled into thinking that the genre's cliches, such as the aforementioned repetitive revenge plots for instance, played no role int he genre being not respected in the west. i would argue thats fairly ignorant of you as well.

I've been fooled? Where are you getting any of that from my reply? Where did I say that cliches in the gnere played no role? I don't remember writing any of this.

I specifically wrote that there were many bad films in martial arts movies...but so with every genre. But just because there were many that were bad does not justify the bad dubs.

if ppl did not find them entertaining, then nobody would be begging for these english dubs they way they do. please do not speak for everyone, YOUR displeasure for them are certainly not mine or others.

And your pleasure does not speak for mine or others. Just because a collective group wants those dubs does not make a fact that they were good. It's very clear it's all about nostalgia, and I can understand that. Hearing something because it recalls certain memories of a certain time. But well made they were not.

if u want to watch ur subs, go for it. i like my dubs. fortunately, we're in 2007 now, and everybody has the option.

And I never wrote that people shouldn't be given that option.

but where do u get off that EVERY person who watches the dubs just simply does so to laugh at them? unless a particular comedic bit was goin on, i dont laugh at them. /quote]

A lot of the people who say they enjoy them consistently point at the funny voices and the fact that they do laugh. If you think this reason does not exist for the good majority of those people than you are the one fooling yourself.

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>i find it ridiculous that u think its impossible to watch a movie with a dub and not laugh a

<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

When it's well made, no...it's not ridiculous.

now that hands down has to be the most closeminded, elitist bullsh*it ive ever read. Get the F*ck outta here with that bullsh*t. who the f*ck r u to tell me, or ANYONE for that matter that i dont respect the genre cuz i like SB/english dubs?

Well, if you really believe those dubs are how the movies should be seen...then I guess I am that guy yeah.

get the f*ck off or high horse and get an open mind.

I do have an open mind. That's why I can tell the difference between a good dub and a bad dub. And also why I held off watching a ton of Shaw Brother films for many years because of the horrendous dubs.

u always come onto these types of threads with ur strong opinions, ones that i oftne disagree with, but can accept and respect, then u always make these subtle implications that offend or belittle ppl. stop looking down on ppl, ur no better than anyone.

That's a joke. I'm not the one name calling people like a number have done on this thread. So if you want to claim all this stuff about "belittling" others look at your side first before you start telling me to rethink stuff.

And don't preach to me about how much you love the films in the subject when it comes to these dubs. They were badly made and it is very well known that they were. The people who do enjoy the dubs continually keep saying that it's because they were bad. If that's too much for you to handle, there is nothing I can do about that.

[Guest The Running Man]

MantisFist,

Check this out.. when the Heroic Grace festival came to town I went to see all the movies they showed. And sadly, lots of people laughed at the films! And guess what the were NOT english dubbed!!! I specifically remember the scene from One-Armed Swordsman where we see wang yu's dad die. People thought that was so funny when people where crying about his death! They laughed at other parts of the movies as well!

Let me respond to that this way:

In the theater I want to when I saw The Departed, everyone was laughing at the end when people were getting shot. I've heard from other people where the same thing happened in their screenings. Yet, there is still a strong opinion that calls that movie the best film of last year (not my opinion).

So my point is...so what?

And in regards to an older movie, many aspects of the movies don't age well. How many times can you watch one of those films and notice production aspects that are pretty obvious nowadays or melodrama that was quite thick as seen with today's eyes. I myself will notice some of these things but I put it into perspective for it's time.

GwaiLoMo,

So far from what Ive read you are the ONLY one who thinks "ALL Shaw dubs are complete crap".

I am?

jmungus:

tryin to do what i consider adopting the most objective approach possible, i`d have to admit those shaw dubs are pretty shite for the most part.

Linn,

That said, I personally don't care about the dubs one way or the other. And I largely agree that the dubbing has helped make this genre a laughingstock IMO.

But even if I was, I don't see how that makes me wrong in any case. The lot of you who enjoy these dubs keep saying it's cause of the funny voices and they make you laugh. Those are reasons that all points to the fact that they were badly made.

But it seems most of the time you just spit venom on other members opinons/posts.

You sure got a lot of nerve saying that after you refer to me as, "Running (Mouth)". I haven't called anyone here names nor I have told anyone that I hope they leave this forum. So you can hold that thing about me spitting venom on other members.

[Guest oldeschool17]

oh man, this thread has so much aggro. I think we need to create some new subforums called "Shaw Bros English Dubs" and "Shaw Bros Subtitles and Cantonese/Mandarin Language" to dissipate some of the heat. lol

[Guest venomchamber]

Also, I clearly stated that, "In fact, those Godzilla dubs were so bad that for many of the American versions of those films, American companies had them redone just so they can be releasable."

I didn't say all. It's not a coincidence that GODZILLA VS MEGALON, GODZILLA VS GIGAN,

and

GODZILLA VS MECHAGODZILLA were all films that came out back to back and not a part of the whole AIP/UPA era of redubs.

No sh*t Sherlock!

Back in the 70s, with the close of many drive-ins, AIP stopped releasing foreign films and began producing their own films before going bankrupt and selling out to Filmways and then Orion before going out of business, leaving these other companies to pick them up without redubbing them, and I've never seen (read: heard) a different dubbed version of TERROR OF MECHAGODZILLA other than edited for content, so to the best of my knowledge which is vast, there is only the one dub by UPA.

I have already clarified why only a handful of films were redubbed and it wasn't because they were hacks. What's more, only 1 (ONE) of them had the kung-fu era voices in it and that was Hedorah aka The Smog Monster due to content change and AIP's trademark preference. It appears all of Toho's films were indeed deemed releasable.

So once again, exactly what was redubbed just so it was releasable?

Please be specific.

...Do I have to explain the whole backstory of international distribution to you, son?

Because it is clear to me you know little about the subject other than what you've "heard" or read on some other site.

That's definitely not a reality. While of course there are fans of those dubs, that does not mean there were no people there to think otherwise. Just reading reviews of Godzilla DVDs every now and then on some review sites I see those dubs pretty blasted and many of them are die hard Godzilla fans.

There is no die-hard Godzilla fan that considers the films to be a laughing stock due to the dubbing. Then he wouldn't be a die-hard fan, now would he?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you mean the Japanese purists out there. Most of these Kaiju otaku don't like dubbing of any kind be it good or bad and that includes the American-shot inserts with American actors like Raymond Burr as well. Go to a G-Con and see for yourself! Or beter yet, go ask my friend Forry Ackerman of Famous Monsters Of Filmland!

I think you need to stop including just your circle as everybody. It was a pretty common thing that many of the movies were giving harsh reviews critically and were looked down upon in mainstream pop culture. There's a big reason those films were largely regulated to grindhouses.

Hahahaha! I knew you were going to say that because I've read that on this board before!

"(my) circle"...shows what you know!

[The first line seems like a personal jab...] :eek

You must be a young kid! So once again, I'll have to school you on another subject!

Firstly, I'm glad you find the population of 8.2 milion in the City Of New York my circle!

With that out of my system, go back and re-read what I said. Allow me to retort:

Most people who gave harsh reviews critically and looked down upon thm were usually a racist sort who bore grudges against Asians for whatever reason be it WW2, Korea, or the then-waging Viet-Nam conflict. These were also the kind of people that called the Chinese "chinks" (a term which I despise). Again, it wasn't because of the dubbing either.

Another reason was because it largely appealed to the politically correct 'minorities' demographic, as well as thugs, hooligans and gangsters due to the film's rebellious themes and violent nature.

This would eventually be what restricted them to the grindhouse circuit, not the dubbing.

HOWEVER, in large cities such as mine, they also played at local neighborhood theaters such as Loews (AMC today) alongside blockbusters such as The Exorcist, Jaws, Saturday Night Fever, and even fare like Herbie The Love Bug & The Apple Dumpling Gang

I rarely went with any 'friends' as they thought I was weird for 'watching movies with Chinese people' in the first place, not to mention monster movies and spaghetti-westerns. They were too busy emulating John Travolta on Kotter and buying designer jeans instead, but here I was surrounded by mobs and mobs of rowdy brothers cheering everybody from Bruce Lee to David Chiang in a dozen or more different theaters no less!

Below you can see two of the "badly dubbed Shaw films done by hacks" as you call them and the theaters they played in!

I can assure you from personal experience that the boxoffice was a busy one! (Today, those same people want these film on DVD in English.)

As far as your comment regarding being largely regulated to grindhouses:

You will also notice they mostly played in rough neighborhoods because of political correctness. These were literally kept away from caucasian audiences until a little film called Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon came along and changed all that creating a class of fan such as yourself.

The same was true in LA, Detroit, Chicago & Atlanta.

Next...

And I never said that the opposite should be done, now did I?

No, you didn't.

When did I ever in this thread say that I felt that the English dubs do not affect buying power??

I never said you did!

I am replying to other members as well you know!

This post is not directed soley at you so don't have a guilty concience.

I am not attacking you, just debating some of your comments. That is all!

I am not trying to force you to like dubs, only get you to elaborate why you feel Shaw dubs are crap.

An observation I've noticed is you tend to specifically call the Shaw dubs crap and don't knock other dubs as much like Golden Harvest who shared a lot of the same dubbing!

You must realize this: if not for the dubs, names like David Chiang, Ti Lung, Gordon Liu, Sammo Hung and Yuen Biao would be unknown to us today due to lack of exposure.

To further demonstrate, Bruce Lee couldn't make his mark in American films until his dubbed Fists Of Fury was released.

Jackie Chan's dubbed films (Drunken Master, Eagle's Shadow, etc) were always far more popular than his American ones (The Big Brawl, Cannonball Run, The Protector) which flopped until his DUBBED Rumble In The Bronx came out! That made a lot of money at the box-office despite it already being available on video in Cantonese several months prior to its domestic release!!!

So this has nothing to do with my 'circle' unless you consider the majority of fans worldwide my circle!

Thank You for your time and patience to this matter and

Good Afternoon!

[Guest Austin Jones]

You sure got a lot of nerve saying that after you refer to me as, "Running (Mouth)". I haven't called anyone here names nor I have told anyone that I hope they leave this forum. So you can hold that thing about me spitting venom on other members.

I think it's just your overall snobby, elitist, condescending attitude more than anything. You remind me of those guys in my film classes, constantly bickering about the mise en scene of a particular shot, or how the director was an idiot for choosing a wide shot over a medium shot, blah, blah.

I'll give you that the dubs, technically speaking, were poorly made and have been mocked for years. What I will not give is validation of your OPINION that they are, in fact, crap, which you have stated repeatedly as "fact". Most of the titles that have available dubs aren't masterpieces of cinema; of course, there are exceptions. That said, a lot of the titles without dubs suffer from bad subtitling, which I have yet to see you address with such venom and such "I know I'm right, so you'd better recognize"-egotism.

As an English speaking American, I like the dubs as they are: Campy, goofy, but most importantly, entertaining. And your line about not watching tons of Shaw Brothers movies because of the bad dubs? Well, man, that is most definitely your loss, and again shows the depths of your effete snobbery. I have absolutely zero respect for anyone who chooses to preach to me how things positively are, with no leeway for interpretation and/or disagreement (God forbid), and judging by the responses, I'm not alone.

Austin Jones

[Guest Chen Zhen]

Well then you obviously missed my point, because that's what I was about since the get go.

not entirely....because u spawned it into a debate about english dubs single-handedly ruining the reputation of the genre, as opposed to the kf film's other faults, faults that u have conveniently failed to mention/respond to.

I sure did read your post, but you obviously aren't reading mine. I never said anything about it being the "ONLY thing". I said, "What's the very first thing people make fun of when they make fun of martial arts movies? "

then why do u fail to make ANY mention to the other faults in kung fu movies that are mocked just as much? depending on who u talk to, the revenge plots can be the first as well.

Then we have nothing to discuss.

then why did u feel the need to attack my general standpoint as far as dubs, when i clearly wasnt discussin the technical "well made" dubs argument. im not arguing the dubs cuz i kno theyre poor. but dont mistake 'poor' for 'non-entertaining'.

That's called "nostalgia".

and the nostalgia makes them enjoyable to many, thus 'good'..to listen to.

Sure, but you continually downplay it's role in every one of your replies and then go against that by claiming that the dubs are good just cause you like them and whatever.

where do i downplay them? i acknowledge their effect. just because i still enjoy listening to those 'horrendous' english dubs does not mean i am oblivious to their effect to the genre as a whole. but just because i enjoy lots of the b-movie elements to classic kf movies doesnt mean im oblivious to their effect as well. and i never went against anything, u simply made that assumption. but i could care less what OTHER ppl think of the genre, i love these films dub or not, and thats not going to change. if ppl want to be so ignorant to not look past dubbing, then thats their problem.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again. I have NO PROBLEM with people liking those dubs. I have NO PROBLEM with the dubs being on the DVDs. It's when people start talking as if these dubs are a great thing that have helped the genre and are genuinely well made that the problem starts. And that is the case because, regardless of what you feel in terms of nostalgia, the dubs were poorly made and yes it did have a negative effect on the genre.

nobody is arguing that theyre 'genuinely' well-made. everyone acknowledges that theyre cheesy, but fun. and whether u want to accept it or not, they have been a double edged sword within the genre. it spoiled their image in the long run, yes, but regardless of the quality of them, they gave the ppl an opportunity to watch them in their own language, rather than just read subtitles. and to the dub fans like myself and my man MantisFIST, they add a certain charm to the movies. call it whatever u want....lots of ppl enjoy them. get over it.

I've been fooled? Where are you getting any of that from my reply? Where did I say that cliches in the gnere played no role? I don't remember writing any of this.

I specifically wrote that there were many bad films in martial arts movies...but so with every genre. But just because there were many that were bad does not justify the bad dubs.

good point......where did u mention that they played no role? seemed to me and others that u 'forgot' to bring that point up. glad we have it clear that the cliches DEFINETELY had a strong role in that bad kf reputation.

once again, ur missing my point. for the last time, waht im saying is that bad dubs or not, most kung fu movies were subject to being clowned...for a variety of reasons mentioned in previous posts.

And your pleasure does not speak for mine or others. Just because a collective group wants those dubs does not make a fact that they were good. It's very clear it's all about nostalgia, and I can understand that. Hearing something because it recalls certain memories of a certain time. But well made they were not.

ur right, my pleasure doesnt speak for anyone...but im not the one attacking sub fans for their decision to watch/enjoy subs. and for the last time i NEVER sed they were technically 'well made'. nobody sed that, so please stop putting words in my mouth.

A lot of the people who say they enjoy them consistently point at the funny voices and the fact that they do laugh. If you think this reason does not exist for the good majority of those people than you are the one fooling yourself.

for the 'good majority' of ppl? not sure who ur hangin around with.....but please dont confuse 'fact' with generalization..im not saying that some ppl dont like them just for the silly dubbing, but a lot of ppl like kung fu movies for the crazy fight scenes and the tales of revenge...something that u fail to acknowledge.

and if the only reason ppl claim to enjoy kf is only for the dubbing alone, then they do not truly enjoy kf films, and are not real fans of the genre....so their opinion means nothing to me at least.

When it's well made, no...it's not ridiculous.

then how come thousands of fans can do so?

Well, if you really believe those dubs are how the movies should be seen...then I guess I am that guy yeah.

first off, i never sed thats how they SHOULD be seen. stop putting words in my mouth. the english dubs are how I like to watch my kung fu. they should be seen however the viewer wants to watch them, which is the great thing about dvds with multiple tracks. but thanx for validating my suspicions about u.

I do have an open mind. That's why I can tell the difference between a good dub and a bad dub. And also why I held off watching a ton of Shaw Brother films for many years because of the horrendous dubs.

if u truly had an open mind, u wouldnt be accusing me and others of having no respect for the genre, based entirely YOUR opinion. i can tell the difference between a 'well made' dub and a bad one....but just because i have fun listening to the 'bad' one doesnt make me any smaller. and i dont see how refusing to watch movies because of an english dub track.....especially when its teh only thing available for HUNDREDS of films...makes u 'open minded', but thats ok, clearly there lots of things to ur logic that i dont understand.

That's a joke. I'm not the one name calling people like a number have done on this thread. So if you want to claim all this stuff about "belittling" others look at your side first before you start telling me to rethink stuff.

And don't preach to me about how much you love the films in the subject when it comes to these dubs. They were badly made and it is very well known that they were. The people who do enjoy the dubs continually keep saying that it's because they were bad. If that's too much for you to handle, there is nothing I can do about that.

ur not the one name calling? i sed u have a very elitist attitude...which u've done very little to prove against. and im not the one with the audacity to question someone's respect for the genre. so maybe u need to look at ur side first.

and YOU dont preach to me about how disrepectful i and others are about loving these films because of something as minute as a dub preference. i NEVER claimed that they were technically 'well made', which u assumed i stated, i sed that they were enjoyable/entertaining, something i will forever stand by. and if the fact that ppl like dubs for nostalgic reasons, or because they do truly believe theyre 'well made', then theres nothing i can do about that either. and if u want to lose so much sleep over what OTHER ppl prefer, rather than just enjoy what u want to enjoy, then theres nothing i can do about that either. so get off that elitist bullshit that ur on.

[Guest Steve Barr]

I first saw Shaw Brothers/Kung Fu films on TV in the 80's, but that doesn't mean I want to watch them today in Pan & Scan (or dubbed). So while there may be nostalgia by some people for original dubs, I don't think there's necessarily a big built in market just because of how they were once shown in the US decades ago. IMO there's enough English-language action movies these days that dubbed Shaws wouldn't be filling a forgotten/big niche.

Those of you who like dubs might try taking an intro Mandarin course of some kind. It's not that hard to learn enough words to make watching the films in that language a different experience.

Zai4jian4,

Steve

[Guest The Running Man]

No sh*t Sherlock!

Yeah, "no sh*t" is right Watson. What I wrote wasn't incorrect.

As far as your history of what went on with AIP selling out to Filmways and then Orion before going under, that doesn't discredit anything about with what I wrote. Nor have I claimed anything about there being a second dub to Terror of Mechagodzilla. You're just filling in information that is way past what I wrote.

I have already clarified why only a handful of films were redubbed and it wasn't because they were hacks.

And I already clarified that I've heard the same thing but I've also heard that another reason were that the dubs were considered poor. And I have heard from a good amount of people that they believed that the redubs were better than the Toho commissioned ones.

It appears all of Toho's films were indeed deemed releasable.

Now when did I say that the films themselves were deemed unreleasable?

...Do I have to explain the whole backstory of international distribution to you, son?

Because it is clear to me you know little about the subject other than what you've "heard" or read on some other site.

Don't get cute with yourself. All you're doing is posting large amounts of info about some distribution companies and their history. And even with that info, it doesn't contradict what I wrote since basically you took it upon yourself to just elaborate on what I wrote.

There is no die-hard Godzilla fan that considers the films to be a laughing stock due to the dubbing. Then he wouldn't be a die-hard fan, now would he?/quote]

So you are telling me that all die-hard Godzilla fans think the English dubs are very well produced and of high quality?

I don't think so. There are fans, just like some people who like Shaw Brother movies, that like the films and are the first to admit the dubs were poorly done.

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you mean the Japanese purists out there. Most of these Kaiju otaku don't like dubbing of any kind be it good or bad and that includes the American-shot inserts with American actors like Raymond Burr

<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

Whatever their case is, are you going to say that these people are not die-hard Godzilla fans either?

Or are you gonna start posting more info on distribution companies and tell me you are going to teach me a lesson by doing so?

Hahahaha! I knew you were going to say that because I've read that on this board before!

"(my) circle"...shows what you know!

Well, whatever you thought you knew I was gonna say has nothing to do with what I actually wrote because I never wrote "(my circle) shows what you know".

And no, it wasn't a personal jab. I just made a comment because you seemed to be quite convinced that everyone out there believes those Shaw Brother English dubs were of high standard and quality.

You must be a young kid! So once again, I'll have to school you on another subject!

Think again guy.

Firstly, I'm glad you find the population of 8.2 milion in the City Of New York my circle!

/quote]

And it amuses me that you think that 8.2 million people in the City of New York ALL believe the Shaw Brother English dubs were well made.

Somehow, I highly doubt that number's accurate.

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Most people who gave harsh reviews critically and looked down upon thm were usually a racist sort who bore grudges against Asians for whatever reason be it WW2, Korea, or the then-waging Viet-Nam conflict. These were also the kind of people that called the Chinese "chinks" (a term which I despise). Again, it wasn't because of the dubbing

<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

Riiiiiiight...so the majority of critics that gave harsh reviews to these films were.....racists.

Yeah....

And bad dubbing played NO part in that equation whatsoever.

So when people make fun of the films...and they specifically refer to bad dubbing in those "old kung fu movies" or "bad dubs like those kung fu movies"....what you are saying is that is totally unreleated to the dubbing that was done for Shaw Brother films and other films of that era.

Sorry, but that isn't accurate whatsoever.

You will also notice they mostly played in rough neighborhoods because of political correctness. These were literally kept away from caucasian audiences until a little film called Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon came along and changed all that creating a class of fan such as yourself.

You don't know anything about me to assume that I became a fan of these films since CTHD. And your entire reason for a total botch of a theory is based solely on the fact that I say those old dubs are bad.

I guess Linn and jmungus most also be "young kids" because they believe these dubs played a big role in these movies being looked down upon.

Your entire reasoning is off base guy. Don't preach to me of a total history and try to play it off as if those bad dubs played no part in these movies being looked down upon by the general public. Their popularity was largely based on the martial arts sequences and many of those people either tried to ignore the bad dubbing or just went along with it. This regulated it to a cult following wether you want to admit it or not.

I never said you did!

I am replying to other members as well you know!

This post is not directed soley at you so don't have a guilty concience.

Yeah, sure guy. In a post that was entirely addressed to me...the last section has the first sentence worded like this, "And if you feel an English dub doesn't affect the buying power, then you are gravely mistaken my friend! "

And you accept me to buy that was not addressed to me? All you did was make a mistake and are trying to backtrack. Like I said, none of what you were talking about had anything to do with me since I never wrote that whole bit about thinking that dubs don't affect buying power. I've actually said the contrary.

I am not trying to force you to like dubs, only get you to elaborate why you feel Shaw dubs are crap.

Then you have absolutely the worst method of trying to achieve anything that I have ever seen. All I see in your posts are just a bunch of comments of you claiming to "school" me and claiming over and over again that the Shaw Brother dubs are great and that everyone out there likes them except me.

I see nothing where you are trying to get me to elaborate on anything. If anything, it's just one big attempt to discredit me at all costs.

An observation I've noticed is you tend to specifically call the Shaw dubs crap and don't knock other dubs as much like Golden Harvest who shared a lot of the same dubbing!/quote]

Then you have terrible observation skills (which was already proven earlier by you claiming that I think that dubs are not important business wise). I've made it quite clear about those dubs being crap as well. You just don't read that here, cause here's the Shaw Brother forum.

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You must realize this: if not for the dubs, names like David Chiang, Ti Lung, Gordon Liu, Sammo Hung and Yuen Biao would be unknown to us today due to lack of e

<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

No. What made them known were the companies distributing the titles and their physical talents on screen. Bad dubbing limited their exposure to bigger audiences due to most people just not being able to stand bad dubbing.

Jackie Chan's dubbed films (Drunken Master, Eagle's Shadow, etc) were always far more popular than his American ones (The Big Brawl, Cannonball Run, The Protector) which flopped until his DUBBED Rumble In The Bronx came out!

Cannonball Run was not his movie. He was just in it.

The Protector and Big Brawl were terrible movies.

And Rumble in the Bronx's dub was better handled than anything in that 70s era of kung fu dubbing.

And I have nothing against dubbing. I just don't like bad dubs.

So this has nothing to do with my 'circle' unless you consider the majority of fans worldwide my circle!

So now you are saying that the amount of the fans across the world who think that those Shaw Brother dubs and other bad kung fu dubs are great outweigh those that do not? Across the globe?

Somehow....I don't think so. Call me crazy.

[Guest venomchamber]

I've actually stood in a variety of different retail stores for lengthy periods of time on several occasions and spoke to strangers about the subject.

Believe it or not, many people (mostly female) don't even like the widescreen format! In this day and age of plasma and Hi-Def, you'd think everybody would! Some people like the pan & scan edit because it fills the screen with no black bars on top or bottom.

Now the fellas on the other hand want it "dubbed an' scoped" as I'm told, otherwise its a "no-buy" as we usually have the latest in hi-tech TV! At this rate, I'm sure the Image release of BELLS OF DEATH will just sit there taking up space right alongside VENGEANCE IS A GOLDEN BLADE and THE SHADOW WHIP. Time after time everyone I've encountered in the public seems to prefer the English dub over the subtitled version.

Once again, the 4 DD titles are much more difficult to find at stores like Best Buy & Circuit City, perhaps because everyone wants them. ONE-ARMED SWORDSMAN for the most part was widely unseen by the general public in English here in the states.

Then there are the guys from NYU (*the college here in Manhattan) who can be overheard at Kim's Video Underground commenting things like "...this Chu Yuan film is exquisite and a breathtaking piece of work..." which sounds as if they're grading an antique. So there is indeed a minority of American fans who appreciate SB films in any language purely based upon its cinematic merit, and not language.

So all the naysayers out there, what do you think of the slow sales of the non-dubbed subtitled only titles?

~oh, and speaking for my "circle", not everyone has the time nor money to go back to College and learn Chinese just to watch a movie!

Me, I've enjoyed them anyway I could be it French (New One-Armed Swordsman), German (7 Man Army), Italian (New Shaolin Boxers), English, Cantonese, or Mandarin so I don't mind, as long as its in ShawScope I'm happy. I'm basically upgrading my collection from various videotapes in various states of quality to a streamlined bootleg-free DVD collection and I am grateful to Celestial, IVL, Image (sometimes), and DD for the opportunity to enjoy these movies.

If they were to release Ivy Ling Po's Huangmei operas or Peter Chen Ho's comedies here in the US, I wouldn't even expect a dub as this is the only way to see them and I've been fine with that for over 20 years.

Did anyone out there realize that the IVL release of SEXY GIRLS OF DENMARK with Tsung Hua is dubbed in English for most of the movie? (*yes, with those early 70s voices too!) So how is it Shaw dubs are poor if the Chinese even watch it in English???

The dubs aren't what make a movie bad, the film itself must be bad in any language.

[Guest The Running Man]

Austin Jones,

I think it's just your overall snobby, elitist, condescending attitude more than anything. You remind me of those guys in my film classes, constantly bickering about the mise en scene of a particular shot, or how the director was an idiot for choosing a wide shot over a medium shot, blah, blah.

Dude, I am very willing to start over again with you, because I have nothing against personally.

not entirely....because u spawned it into a debate about english dubs single-handedly ruining the reputation of the genre, as opposed to the kf film's other faults, faults that u have conveniently failed to mention/respond to.

I have no idea what you are talking about me "conveniently" failed to mention kf's films other faults and cliche's when I have already directly replied to it several times:

Just cause a large amount of kung fu films were bad doesn't mean the majority of the genre was. All genres are made up of mostly bad films.

I specifically wrote that there were many bad films in martial arts movies...but so with every genre. But just because there were many that were bad does not justify the bad dubs.

then why did u feel the need to attack my general standpoint as far as dubs, when i clearly wasnt discussin the technical "well made" dubs argument. im not arguing the dubs cuz i kno theyre poor. but dont mistake 'poor' for 'non-entertaining'.

First of all....I wasn't attacking you anything. YOU replied to me. I never called you out. So as far as the discussion between me and you go, since you replied to me it's either you discuss what I was talking about or there is no discussion because I wasn't talking about anything else.

and the nostalgia makes them enjoyable to many, thus 'good'..to listen to.

Right...but that doesn't necessarily make them "good". That's the idea of nostalgia.

nobody is arguing that theyre 'genuinely' well-made.

Really??

That's kinda why this debate started.

call it whatever u want....lots of ppl enjoy them. get over it.

I don't have a problem with people wanting to hear them. I have no problem with people enjoying them.

It's when people claim they are well made and they are important to the films that I have a problem with.

once again, ur missing my point. for the last time, waht im saying is that bad dubs or not, most kung fu movies were subject to being clowned...for a variety of reasons mentioned in previous posts.

And what I am saying is that the bad dubs were chief among them.

then how come thousands of fans can do so?

And what about the many more thousands of fans that can't.

first off, i never sed thats how they SHOULD be seen. stop putting words in my mouth.

I'm not putting any words in your mouth. I was referring back to the quote that you cited before in your reply.

and i dont see how refusing to watch movies because of an english dub track.....especially when its teh only thing available for HUNDREDS of films...makes u 'open minded', but thats ok, clearly there lots of things to ur logic that i dont understand.

I didn't refuse all of them. I saw many Shaw Brother films through old VHS tapes. I saw as much as I could before I couldn't stand the bad dubbing anymore and just went on to other genres and films.

ur not the one name calling? i sed u have a very elitist attitude...which u've done very little to prove against.

There's nothing I can do about how you interpret my comments. I have made myself very clear. I never named called anyone on this thread or told them I hope they get out of the forum. I have nothing personal against anyone here and feel no reason to try to smear anyone unlike how some people feel the urge to do so.

In fact, I've taken more than enough time today to reply to all of these comments. So if anything, consider that a token of generosity of me sitting here, reading what you guys have to say, and then trying to reply to long posts from more than one person as much as I can. If I didn't respect anyone's opinion, I would have told you all to go f*ck yourselves.

This will be the last thing I say on this thread and that's that. To you, venomschamber, and to Austin Jones...I have nothing personal against you guys. It terms of this subject of Shaw Brother dubs and other dubs of films from this era, I feel they are a big black cloud over the history and respect the genre has struggled to gain in the West.

I do not have a problem with people liking them and enjoying them. I only have a problem with the idea that little is at fault with those dubs and that those dubs are generally well made. That what I was arguing and I have felt I have expressed in my posts which unfortunately got shuffled within all the other comments of other's thoughts about the subject in general.

If you felt that my posts were elisits or attacked any one of you, I can only say that wasn't the intention of those posts and I apologize. However, such is the result of being in forums and people sometimes have the tendency to come worse than what they actually mean.

I hope all of you guys well and no hard feelings even if some comments felt otherwise. I hope we can see each other elsewhere on the message board and not have ill will towards each other.

[Guest Chen Zhen]

YOU replied to me. I never called you out.

actually, my original comment wasnt meant directly at u, i only mentioned how it seemed (to me at least), that u were placing ALL the blame on the dubs, rather than the other genre faults as well. but i was mainly dropping my 2 cents on the whole dub/sub argument, something that u acknowledge was NOT ur argument. i suppose some confusion arose between the 2 of us.

Right...but that doesn't necessarily make them "good". That's the idea of nostalgia.

theres clearly just a difference of opinion as what is classified as good between u and everyone else. good to me is simply entertaining. there are some oldskool english dubs that i think are GOD awful.......such as the dubbing in Shaolin vs Ninja for example. ur classification of "good" is clearly more technical than most other folks here, can we agree to disagree on that?

Really??

That's kinda why this debate started.

well it seemed to me at least, that the debate, as everyone else perceived it, was that u were attacking the enjoyability of these 'suspect' english dubs. i dont think anyone in hear believes that they were professional and top notch, like the alternate tracks for recent films. everybody knows theyre cheesy, but that doesnt make them not enjoyable. but in ur sense, i dont think anyone thinks theyre 'genuinely' well made...but someone correct me if im wrong.

And what I am saying is that the bad dubs were chief among them.

well, thats merely opinion, one that cannot be definitively proven, just like my belief that other elements played a larger role. so i dont think anyone can judge that as fact. but i agree the dubs played a role.

And what about the many more thousands of fans that can't.

once again, thats speculation as to "many more". i kno there are tons of ppl who dont laugh, as im sure u kno plenty who do. something like that cannot be proven.

I didn't refuse all of them. I saw many Shaw Brother films through old VHS tapes. I saw as much as I could before I couldn't stand the bad dubbing anymore and just went on to other genres and films.

point taken. but the fact that u have seen many english dubs should enable u to understand why some folks prefer them, aside from just to laugh at them, or to reminise from the past.

There's nothing I can do about how you interpret my comments

likewise.

I do not have a problem with people liking them and enjoying them. I only have a problem with the idea that little is at fault with those dubs and that those dubs are generally well made. That what I was arguing and I have felt I have expressed in my posts which unfortunately got shuffled within all the other comments of other's thoughts about the subject in general.

If you felt that my posts were elisits or attacked any one of you, I can only say that wasn't the intention of those posts and I apologize. However, such is the result of being in forums and people sometimes have the tendency to come worse than what they actually mean.

I hope all of you guys well and no hard feelings even if some comments felt otherwise. I hope we can see each other elsewhere on the message board and not have ill will towards each other.

look homie, i dont believe in internet beef, so from me at least, theres no ill will. this was a good engaging debate that was civilized and all that, but the only thing i had a problem with was ur remark about fans of english dubs not respecting the genre. that was something i took offense to, because i think its absolutely ridiculous that someone who doesnt know me personally has the right to tell me such a thing. there are diehards all over the board and not on the board, like myself or mantis fist or sevenhooks, or CK (i could keep going) who love these films to death, but we (well, at least me) have no less respect for the genre as you or anyone else, regardless of how damaging to the reputation of kf they were...because any true fan of not this genre, but ANY genre can see the beauty of filmmaking past languages. ive seen many movies from all genres that were dubbed well, and poorly, which were still excellent movies.

with that sed, im not going to apologize for what i sed a few posts ago.....but would rather apologize for how i sed it...i'll admit, i came across very agressive there. but thats something i feel strongly about, and felt that u were taking a standpoint of superiority in an attempt to belittle me....something i dont stand for. but clearly there has been some miscommunication/misunderstanding, so lets just agree to disagree about the dubs, cuz personally im tired of typing out these essays over something which is nothing more than a difference of opinion.

no beef...if i offended u at all, im sorry.

[bobo]

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[Guest Steve Barr]

So all the naysayers out there, what do you think of the slow sales of the non-dubbed subtitled only titles?

I'm sure that a dub track would add some incremental sales, but without seeing real numbers it's hard to know how big of an increase it would be. All of these films are decades old and may not appeal to the "English-only dialog" crowd the way a new Hollywood action movie would.

The other factors worth mentioning is price and availability -- if these films had come out region free from IVL and been $9.99 at Best Buy, there might have been visible demand for them, dubs or not. But with Best Buy pricing such average subbed HK cinema as Heroic Duo at $20, it's understandable demand isn't amazing. People happy with subbed films will buy them online for less, perhaps creating the impression in US retailers that demand isn't there for the films.

[Guest oldeschool17]

i think the only way we can get a gauge on say, dragon dynasty's sales is to look at their annual report/financial statements. Obviously the calendar/fiscal year for them is not over yet. Im assuming they are considered a publicly traded company? Otherwise, that info wont be available for us to see. Plus, if they were a privately held company, i doubt they would divulge numbers to the general public, but last contact I had with Bey Logan, he said sales were good, but how good is left to the general public's imagination. I guess if they keep on releasing titles in a timely manner, thats a good indicator of their sales?

It would be harder to evalutate that with Image, considering they have many other genres in their company, unless they stated it specifically in the footnotes. With IVL, meh, forget it.

[Guest shukocarl]

If you're an old git like me who was there at the start (in the UK) with King Boxer, The Killer and The New One Armed Swordsman and the Lee flicks etc...then you most probably enjoy the dubs...you are so used to them (but no added foley, sound or different music please). I can watch the Mandarin versions with subs but don't enjoy them as much but that dosen't mean that there isn't room for both! The younger crowd like the subs..so what? I can't believe the nastiness of some of these comments...just agree to disagree!

Carl (old git...really!)

[Guest Kwok Choi]

Good English Dubbed Shaw Movies (in my opinion)

Black Lizard

The New One-Armed Swordsman

Blood Brothers

Eight Diagram Pole Fighters

Heroes Two

Life Gamble

Brave Archer 3

Chinatown Kid

Heads For Sale

Shaolin Temple

New Shaolin Boxers

The Killer

The Duel

Vengeance

Heroes Shed No Tears

Bat Island Adventure aka Legend Of The Bat

The Boxer From Shantung

The Deadly Duo

The Flag Of Iron

King Boxer

Men From The Monastery

The 5 Venoms

Rendezvous With Death

The Killer Constables

The Assassin

Executioners From Shaolin (if you can ignore Wending )

Marco Polo

Shaolin Mantis

Shaolin Handlock

Avenging Eagle

Cripple Avengers

The Kid With The Golden Arms

The Invincible Enforcer

The Magnificent Ruffians

Five Element Ninja

The Lizard

The Silver Fox

The Lady Exterminator etc etc

[Guest venomchamber]

Firstly, you seem to believe this entire post revolves around you. FYI- I was addressing several posters including those you mentioned with one blog, not just you. In your case I believe I was replying to the Godzilla dubs statements.

NOW I'll get to you directly Running Man. Firstly, I can now see why some people here seems to complain about you being snobby. You need to relax and think before you post.

And I have heard from a good amount of people that they believed that the redubs were better than the Toho commissioned ones.

You heard wrong. What people? I want names and dates. Magazine article? TV Interview? DVD Bonus Feature? Nothing you've said are the facts you make them out to be.

You have not named a single thing and have let me do all of the explaining! I suspect this is because you actually don't know and simply rely on heresay and boast it as fact.

Can you name 1 film that had to be re-dubbed because it was unreleasable? No, you can't. But go ahead and try. I am curious as to what critic's review you dig up from some other site. Just the facts, no fiction.

Now when did I say that the films themselves were deemed unreleasable?

when you said they had to be redubbed because American companies felt them to be unreleasable.

Well, whatever you thought you knew I was gonna say has nothing to do with what I actually wrote because I never wrote "(my circle) shows what you know".

Who said you did? That's my quote to you, silly!

By the way, you sir are a manipulator of words as you know damn well what you posted. I'm not going to go back and quote every single blog you posted.

And no, it wasn't a personal jab. I just made a comment because you seemed to be quite convinced that everyone out there believes those Shaw Brother English dubs were of high standard and quality.

I never once said everyone out there believes those dubs were of a high standard and quality. I am saying (or rather reporting) that the general public prefers the dubs as they were, for better or for worse.

And it amuses me that you think that 8.2 million people in the City of New York ALL believe the Shaw Brother English dubs were well made.

no of course not, that's the number of movie goers here in NY that I go to the movies among. Again, you know what I mean. You're just being ridiculous. Perhaps you can't read between the lines?

When you refer to my "circle" you have absolutely no idea whos in it and how many people are in it. Whenever I go to the theater, I've always interacted with the public, even to this day, to see their reactions.

Riiiiiiight...so the majority of critics that gave harsh reviews to these films were.....racists.

(Don't try to put words in my mouth by manipulating what I say to suit your needs.)

What I am referring to are persons who don't like these films,

because everybody's a critic.

If you specifically mean a film critic associated with a newspaper? Perhaps some of them, maybe. Remember, a critic is just an individual's personal opinion. Did Pam Grier or Fred Williamson get rave reviews? No. Did any Mexican films of Rene Cardona get rave reviews? No. In fact, even Sergio Leone's films were blasted by the press as well. But we still went to see them!

Would you think the type of movie critic that would rave about a movie like GONE WITH THE WIND would rave about a kung-fu movie? Of course not. It'll never happen.

You must also realize that there were a lot of really bad films coming out then as well like SUPERMAN-CHU, BLOOD FINGERS, KUNG-FU HALLOWEEN, MANDARIN MAGICIAN and the onslaught of Bruce Li movies which contributed to giving kung-fu movies a bad name. Even I would rate these as poor, and not just because of the dubbing, but because they sucked!

So it would appear you feel the opinions of a handful of critics are sworn facts, eh? You would actually let a critic tell you what is good and not good without judging for yourself? Sad.

Anyways, critics didn't critique many HK films in the 70s. But I will tell you this much, if you were alive and old enough to read the papers back then you'd already know, they hated Bruce Lee's films, even Enter The Dragon! They did not favor the theaters that ran them nor the audience in attendance.

They only went to private screenings endorsed by the major Hollywood studios. That is perhaps why they didn't review many others.

Try reading a review from Martial-Arts Movies magazine for a favorable review next time!

And bad dubbing played NO part in that equation whatsoever.

Where? on At The Movies? You would be right then!

Because ROGER EBERT happens to love Shaw Brothers INFRA-MAN with a big ol' thumbs up, so there! :rollin

Don't get cute with yourself. All you're doing is posting large amounts of info about some distribution companies and their history. And even with that info, it doesn't contradict what I wrote since basically you took it upon yourself to just elaborate on what I wrote.

History? That wasn't even the tip of the iceberg! You've yet to get a history lesson out of me.

These 'distribution companies' as you call them are the reason why there are a few redubs in the first place! It seems you "can't see the forest because the trees are in the way" so to speak because the 'large amount of info' I posted explains a more accurate reason for the redubs than your hearsay. (Soon I'll have to post articles from Variety and Hollywood Reporter to get my point accross! sheesh!)

And in case you didn't realize, there are other people on here reading this that may appreciate the info so as to understand what's going on. AIP was far more than that anyways. What I was debating is your statement that these films were redubbed to be releasable, because a dubbed film is still a dubbed film. Is having voice actors imitate stereotype Japanese accents better than English accents? Its all a matter of opinion.

I supplied a fact where you supplied...well...nothing but negative opinions and rudeness.

Here let me say it this way,

AIP preferred the stereotypical Japanese voice that sounded like (Sonny Chiba's Street Fighter voice)

"oooh! Gotzeela is coming! Eet mast be afta da monsta eck!"

over the straightforward English voice that sounded like (Ku Feng's Avenging Eagle voice)

"Monster Godzilla is in Tokyo Bay...seems he's after the monster's egg!"

Even though the latter is far less racial it was not deemed unreleasable, but all of their films had to have the same voices.

AIP started with GODZILLA VS THE THING in 1964. From that film onwards they used the same voice actors time and again until 1972.

However, AIP chose not to redub ATTACK OF THE MUSHROOM PEOPLE (aka Matango) as it was from before then in 1963 and has the kung-fu style of dubbing that you despise so much. Yet today that film is considered the Japanese horror classic equivalent of Night Of The Living Dead and was seen on late night creature-features for decades. Nowhere have I ever read a complaint about the "poor dubbing" of this film (the U.S. title, yes) which has the same voice actors from Duel Of The Iron Fist.

You know, I like to give credit where credit is due and before I could, you get on this uptight crusade to squash people who do not think the same as you.

But, I neglected to mention that yes, I feel some of the Godzilla films of the 70s did have atrocious dubbing, worse than the kung-fu movies did and were in dire need of a redubbing as a couple of them call Godzilla as "Gudzillia" and "monster Gudziller".

What made them known were the companies distributing the titles and their physical talents on screen. Bad dubbing limited their exposure to bigger audiences due to most people just not being able to stand bad dubbing.

World Northal distributed many of their earlier titles in English for Americans to go and see and the popularity of these films led WB to finance The Big Brawl in an attempt to make him the next Bruce Lee, which failed. There wasn't a Jackie Chan or a Hong Kong film shown in American theaters for the 10 years between The Protector and Rumble In The Bronx (not including limited art house and film festival showings of The Killer and Hard Boiled).

If dubbed kung-fu movies weren't popular, bad dubbing and all, do you think Samo Hung would have been popular enough to have an American series on prime time? What would the producers have had to go on without a built-in following?

Anyways, I've made my point. I've wasted enough of my time discussing this.

I'm not here to argue with you over this trivial nonsense.

You are entitled to your opinion and that's great.

If you think dubs are crap, then good for you!

I disagree, and that's my right.

Cheers and Good Night!

sincerest regards...

[Guest venomchamber]

if these films had come out region free from IVL and been $9.99 at Best Buy, there might have been visible demand for them, dubs or not.

oh, without a shadow of a doubt! We could only wish for a hook-up like that! Better still, if Celestial could penetrate Wal-Mart, then they would have no problem reaching audiences nationwide!

pricing such average subbed HK cinema as Heroic Duo at $20, it's understandable demand isn't amazing.

touche!

See, now that's something I could agree with because it makes perfect sense.

[bobo]

say kwok choi---thats quit a list there--by any chance do you have english dubbed copies of BLACK LIZARD-HEADS FOR SALE-HEROES SHED NO TEARS-RENDEZVOUS WITH DEATH-THE ASSASSIN and INVINCIBLE ENFORCER ?

[Guest SunChien2004]

I love the old English dubs, I know the hardcore collectors hate them, but it's easier to follow. Unless the movie isn't released in English, then I'll probably watch, otherwise it's not a big deal to me at all. Hardly something to get upset over or stress about.

[Guest venomchamber]

I think you need to stop including just your circle as everybody.

oh, RM, this was the quote that I took personally that I referred to as "(my) circle".

Got it?

That's why I mentioned the population of NYC's movie-going public at large seemed to prefer a dubbed film than a subbed film as my "circle" because my real circle at that time didn't like Chinese films at all in any language. That's what led me to say "shows what you know" because if you knew me, then you'd know that I base my findings on a survey I take everyday (even as recent as when I went to see Rise Of The Silver Surfer & Transformers) and not by the opinion of a handful of friends. Do you understand what I am saying?

I know about people's preferences by asking random people on the street. You should try it sometime. Its very insightful.

Anyways, moving along.

This topic is now closed with me.

Going to buy some more IVLs in Chinatown and eat at Wo-Hops after a trip to the bank...

[KyFi]

OK, I'll throw in my two taels.

I grew up on the dubs as well, and I'll admit there is a certain charm and nostalgia factor to them. And I think the Shaw dubs were generally pretty good.

But, I vastly prefer the subs, particularly with the Celestial releases. For me, it's simple: English dubs bring me out of the movie. The movies are set in China, with Chinese people, using Chinese fighting styles and weapons, with Chinese buildings and teahouses, and Chinese clothes, eating Chinese food, and having Chinese social customs and culture. Why would they be speaking English? I appreciate the effort the filmmakers made on every other level and with lots of attention to detail to convey the feel that the film is taking place in ancient China---the spoken language is just one more part of that, for me.