Shaw dubs:I like them, you hate them. Let's talk about it

[Guest ironfistedmonk2003]

There is alot of looking down on the dubs going on here but they are necessary for the success of these DVD releases. There are alot of people out there who just don't like subtitles, call it ignorance and laziness if you will but some just don't like them because they either can't read them quickly enough or because it distracts them from whats happening on screen, subtitles are not everyones cuppa.

As for the dubs making the films a laughing stock that may well be the case, but alot of these movies are bad movies no matter what language they are in. We are all fans of the genre and cut these films a hell of alot of slack but unless you are bitten by the kung fu bug then all you will see is a cheap badly made film.

[Guest SlothStyleKungFu]

Grew up with the dubs and I still like them. As a matter of fact, when I was a kid my dream job was to grow up and be a kung fu dubber.

I wont dispute that they had some negative impact, but its obvious that was due to viewer ignorance, people with blinders on (or earmuff as the case may be). I think that was due to how the genre was marketed, as cheapie popcorn films, and the dubs just reflected that. And, honestly, thats what most of the films that became really popular stateside were, popcorn flicks. But there is no dispute that classier films got cheapened by poor dubs. Obviously, a good number of people saw through the cheese and appreciated that there was some substance there.

I do look at it as a combo of nostalgia (I'm not interested in modern dubs of new or old films at all- I think times have changed enough with all foreign films that people in the US dont slag subtitles as much) and, more importantly, the trasformative aspect that the dubbing gave the films. Some stuffier, kung-fu- serious, folks look at the cheapening only in a negative light, but I dont mind the way an old school dub can completely skew a film into that other more exploitative, b-movie world.

[bobo]

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[Guest oldeschool17]

if these are such laughing stock material, why are casual or less than dedicated fans like the ones that post on here willing to rent/buy those flicks? Alot of the American public doesnt like subtitles. Look at some of those morons that left the theaters when Pans Labyrinth was playing because it was released in theaters only with subtitles. They missed out on a great movie in my opinion. Would Iron Monkey or Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon done as good in US theaters had they not include the english dubs(i didnt see these in the theaters, but they did play em with english dubs?). If Media Blasters, Dragon Dynasty, and Image only catered towards to hardcore fans insisting more on correct subtitles vs campy dubs, i think they would lose out in the race. Look at Image..well besides their crap conversions, they sure as hell arent motivating a certain demographic by not including the dubs. Dragon Dynasty and Media Blasters are the lesser of evils and offer the better of compromises for both sides of the coin, as far as im concerned. I totally understand Running Man's plight, for he wants a complete package to be just simply right. However, be it due to the business's needs,lazyness,egos and allocation of their budget, some of those accomodations cant be met. Unfortuantely, for running man and alike, you guys are the minority in consideration (at least for the R1 releases) and at the end of the day, its all business to them.. Sorry running man for dropping your name,im just using you as a reference, not trying to berate you!8)

[Guest Chen Zhen]

this is probably the 285th time ive read a dub vs sub argument.

did dubs contribute to the films being considered 'laughing stocks'? absolutely.

but how serious is one going to watch a movie that features dance-like 10 minute fights (without any pause), the countless cycles of revenge, and the LAME comedy that plagued most late 70s+ films? Running Man, i kno u may not have directly meant it, but it almost seems like one would think a movie like Dirty Tiger Crazy Frog or even Odd Couple wouldnt be seen as a joke with or without an english dub.

sure, some films were excellently made.....but the genre is so surreal in itself, which RARELY takes itself seriously in the first place...its almost naive to place the blame on the genre's poor image just on the dubbing.

classic kung fu movies, at their heart, are silly, surreal movies..but incredibly entertaining and uplifting...which is why all of us forum-goers cant get enough of them. the dubbing is not the reason the movies are considered by many as b-movies...they got that title because, frankly....many of them were, if u dissect the movies...shoddy acting, suspect scriptwriting, plotholes, lack of realism, bathroom humour, red paint for blood, etc. all these things, contributed to its reputation.

and add to the fact that ALL movies were dubbed....(even in their own language!), i dont feel the least bit upset or compelled to see it in it's original language....if the mandarin track is the only thing available, i wont trip, but if i have the chance to see somethin with the eng dub, im puttin the dub track on...believe dat!

and personally, i dont think anyone (in US/canada at least) really gives a sh*t whether the dubs are, technically "well made" or not. theyre nostalgic, yes...they tell the story, yes....and theyre entertaining to listen to...hence the preference.

[Guest Elvis Mantis]

I like the Shaw dubs, and that would be the only reason for me to "upgrade" or buy duplicates of IVL Shaws that I already have. In other words, if DD or Media Blaster put these movies out with the dubs, I'd probably buy them, even if I already have the IVL version. If they put them out without dubs, I have no reason to buy them.

[Guest Tosh]

First off I don't know why this has to be an arguement, unless two people were about to sit down and watch a movie together who cares what someones preference is.

I myself prefer subtitles, but I like to watch a movie in the language intended, I couldn't really care if it's in Mandarin or Cantonese as long as it's Chinese, they are very simular, I know both languages enough now to tell the difference, but can't understand either of them anyways (for the most part).

As far as dubs go I think it goes past nostalgia, I believe Americans(don't know about the other English speaking Countries) lose out on a lot of good movies, people unwilling to read subs, but I started watching these movies at 9 years old, I could barely sit still for 2 seconds at that age let alone sit through subs, so maybe the dubs helped me get into this genre at such a young age. I always liked the Venom dubs (even still sometimes), I'm not familiar with the people, but there was one crew that did a great job, dubs are also great when you've been drinking:p

As far as these movies being goofy or people not taking them seriously sorry but 95% of the movies coming out of Hollywad now are just as stupid, really even more so, with their goddamnn cgi explosions every 2 minutes|I

[Guest vengeanceofhumanlanterns]

Dual Of The Iron (shaolin) Fists

5 Fingers Of Death

Invincible Shaolin

Seven Blows Of The Dragon

Kung Fu Vengeance

Killer's Game -the green jade statuette (I know it's not shaws, but I consider the dubs on this film to have been the very best attempt by any film company applying english dubs).

these films are some of the better if not best examples of english dubbing.

Normally, I agree with the notion of english dubbing of these films do make them a bit of a laughing stock in the world of cinema, but the above mentioned films are lent a very special charm with the english dubs applied.

There are other films, Shaws and independents, that are cool because of the english dubs, but in the Shaws world I definitely prefer english subs. I just wish the translations for the english subs were a little more accurate in their application, I mean appropriating english verse in direct translation from the chinese, is towards the actors lines. They should'nt just make simplified, literal translations from chinese to english, or if that be the case they should make sure the tonal expression of the actors lines are exactly translated to english. In exact order as each word is spoken.

That's my opinion anyway.

[Guest Chinatown Kid]

I personally prefer the dubs, it's what I grew up watching and the familiar English voices are like hearing old friends talking. Mandarin or Cantonese language means absolutely nothing to me because I can't understand it. I would much rather just hear the words instead of having to read them on screen so I can keep my eyes on the actual film. I respect other's opinions that prefer the Chinese language with English subs and understand why they have that preference. I wish that both could be offered on every disc so everyone could be happy but sadly this doesn't happen as much as it should. I don't think the Shaw dubbs are crap and actually think they're quite charming, probably alot of English fans prefer the English dub of 5 Deadly Venoms and Chinatown Kid over the original language, I sure as hell do!

[Guest BKarza]

I fall in with much of what venomchamber said. Grew up watching on tv as a kid. Too young to see the flicks in the theaters at the time.

Now that I'm grown, my mentaliy has as well. It is most important to me to have what I have always wanted at the best quality. While it would be nice to have the old english dubs, it is no factor at all in the end. Does it change the feel of a movie that I've seen dubbed in english now dubbed in mandarin and/or cantonese? Yes.

Life Gamble will feel different. Five Venoms, Invincible Shaolin and executioners from Shaolin feel different. 2 movies that I find don't have the punch that the english dub had, are The Master and ESPECIALLY Avenging Eagle. Ku Feng's character doesn't have that "thing" in/to his voice that the english dub brought. "I'm sorry". "NO YOU'RE NOT!" That's not there in chinese. The softness with which he speaks to convince. The power of his voice to convey anger and how it frightens. All lost. The Master looses all of it's lightheartedness and general feel in chinese. The english dub made it feel more fun. "big bad man, see him jump around, big bad man, he's shaking like a leaf, a shaking leaf". That was funny just by the english delivery. It feels flatter in chinese. In the end it matters not much to me. It's better than to have f'd up casio laced jacked and f'd up audio tracks. Notice how that crap stopped. Someone's son most hae broken his board while trying to f up Killer Constable and that was that. Too late as they have jacked up too many.

I doesn't matter to me mostly because I will not wait for Image, or DD or Billy Bob or Crash or anybody to release anything. DDHouse shows a release date and its bought. No double dipping, no waiting. I'm grown now and I don't care a certain things anymore.

Some dubs bad? Yes as VC said aboot the fall off period. They really hurt as must of us had become settled in and comfortable with those 70s voices. Legendary Weapons had tha fall off crew. One of the reasons why I never bought Image version. I don't know that I'll miss them on Super Ninjas but I prob. will miss the good guys on Golden Arm. In the end, oh well. I'm anal aboot video quality and not having jacked up audio quality.

[Guest JustAFan]

I read your thoughts, but why how is it that dubs are going to make these movies sell better in North America, the people who don't watch these movies are not going to decide to buy the because they're dubbed in English.

I like dubs and I like subs, if I want the movie i'll buy it as long as it has one or the other. And, I have movies back when I was collecting these on VHS that don't have either that I couldn't figure out and was glad when Celestial released them with subs.

The only people who are gonna buy these movies are people who are gonna buy these movies, in the end dubs or the lack of do not help or hurt sales of these movies that we enjoy and love.

[Guest Markgway]

The Ocean Shores dubs from the mid-80s are crap. You hear them on movies like Wolf Devil Woman, etc.

I don't dislike Shaw dubs (at least the better ones) I'm just not going to listen to them if I have subs.

I hope that makes my position clearer.

[Guest The Running Man]

this is probably the 285th time ive read a dub vs sub argument.

Except this isn't one.

I don't know how many times I have to keep saying it but I guess the concept of me just saying that the English dubs made for almost all the Shaw Brother movies are garbage and did far worse for martial arts genre in English speaking countries than any good is just too much for people to comprehend.

I am NOT talking about not having dubs or including them ever.

[Guest Mantis FIST]

what my man Chen Zhen said! :hat

[Guest froffeecoffee]

I'm a long time reader of the forum and an occasional comment contributor, here's my 2 cents. LOVE THE SHAW DUBS!! For me I prefer subtitles for my foreign films, though old school kung fu flicks are the exception. I'll never get past any dubs of modern asian films, in this day and age of better audio, the original language is preferred in modern foreign flicks. As for dubs making the genre a laughing stock, that's one of the reasons, but I think that oversaturation of bad kung fu movies has just as much to do with its reputation as bad B-level. We have to admit there are more bad movies than good movies. This goes for all genres, when one movie does well, expect studios to try and make a quick buck with an less, inferior, cheap product-Bruceploitation films as an example. I think these knockoffs have more to do with kung fu's unfortunate reputation as bad movies.

As for subs, hey it's only fair to include all options that are available and I for one look forward to hearing the Cantonese on 36th Chamber. For those who say all dubs are crap that is an opinion pure and simple. As we've seen so far on this subject there are numerous fans of the dubs, who have various opinions as to why they love them. Me, like many here, I grew up with the dubs and it never occurred to me I was watching a foreign movie. To me it was just a fantastic experience to see these films. It was fun and lively and to see martial arts at this level, a revelation of what the human body is capable of. Things like this is what is sorely missing in modern film.

[Guest Dahnamics]

anyone else always drunk? and only views subbed films while sober during the day, or early evening?

seriously tho.. there's just something about watching a chinese kf flick with an english dub.. funny cuz i actually HATE japanese dubs (shogun assassin, tattooed hitman, etc) cuz it just doesn't feel right, and im sure these are prolly considered better than most of the shaw dubs? im even a young cat (23) but when i was first introduced to kung fu films (around age 7 or so) it was with the dubs. its a completely different experience. its fun to watch a dub then later watch original lang with subs and notice the differences in the story etc. dubs are also more convient. im the type of cat that likes to get up and grab a beer or refill a glass of wine several times during a film. and call me a lazy bastid but im not tryna pause the damn dvd everytime i need to re-up (which is very often). theres nothin like running back into the living room spillin ur corona after u here "u killed my master! now u will pay!" knowing somebody is about to get they ass beat. :hat

[Guest GwaiLoMoFo]

First off, I agree with everything Chen Zhen wrote as well. Well said my friend!

I prefer watching my Shaw films in original language with subs. Exspecially the wuxia films, and the darker more serious kf films. I dont mind dubs as much on the fu films that are more comedy based films. Given a choice Ill pick subbed over dubbs 100% of the time. I wasnt fortunate enough to have seen these films dubbed in the threaters back in the day. So the dubs really dont hold any sentimental value to me. But I can see how they would for the people who were fortunate enough to see them dubbed back in the day. Helps bring back some great memories I'm sure. Had I seen them that way when I was younger, I'm sure that I would appreciate them more. I watch alot of other foriegn film genres and I always prefer subs as well. Always better to see the film the way it was originally meant to be seen IMO.

[Guest rindge]

Linn, what firestorm. I thought you asked simple question. Ouch.

Anyway, my preference is for the subs. I watched most of my films in Chinatown (I guess I am one of the lucky ones) and I became accustomed to the subs. I also like the subs because I learned a few Mandarin phrases (that I assumed) were cantonese at the time.

The other reason for the subs is that I believe (but I could be wrong) the subs do a better job of conveying the message that is being communicated. For instance in the dubbed version of Martial Club it was not clear why Wang Lung Wei was struggling to communicate Hui. Also, I am not sure if the dubbed version made clear why Wang did not want to go to the opera. In the subbed version it was clear that Wang only spoke Mandarin and he could not understand what Kara was saying to him. It was also clear that he chose not to go to the opera because he did not understand cantonese. For me the subs provided a clearer understanding of the situation, but ALSO provided some insight into the Chinese culture.

With regards, to dubs - I do not hate them, I just prefer them. Having dubs will do nothing to increase my purchase of DVD's. The few movies I am able to watch with my kids are done with subs and they just read the subs like everyone else. My younger kids may not yet be able to keep up with the subs, but I get the impression they are not too concerned with story line and want to see the fighting.

Now do the dubs at times come across as foolish, etc. Yes, but hey that was how they were produced. Growing up, lots of my friends want nothing to do with the subs because they did not want to read the subs. They could read but preferred the dubs. I think someone else mentioned that in general folks do not want to read subs. To each their own we can all co-exist. I will tell you this, if the Celestials were initially released with just dubs and no subs, I'm not sure I would have gone out and purchased the DVD's. I'm not sure I could deal with all of the annoying dub voices.

My two cents.

Rindge

[Guest peringaten]

The Ocean Shores dubs from the mid-80s are crap. You hear them on movies like Wolf Devil Woman, etc.

GREATEST. DUB. OF. ALL. TIME.

Anyhoo...

I've been lending my girlfriend's young nephew (yet to hit double figures) a few HKL discs, Jackie, Sammo, etc., he's too young for subs so is watching the attrocious dubbed versions - absolutely loving them, replaying numerous times, etc.. Now, we may diss these dubs - not like the old classics teams many grew up with, etc... but for him the nostalgia's probably already begun - maybe for him HKL dubs might actually be thought of as classic, perish the thought? hghghg

[Guest Markgway]

Lol, if the kid is near double-figures he should be able to read by now.

[Guest peringaten]

Lol, if the kid is near double-figures he should be able to read by now.

Yeah, he can read. And deal with subs if really need be. But funny you should say that, he sometimes puts subs on with flicks just to help his reading - remarked how completely different they are to the dubs on HKLs... However, when you're 8 and a bit hyper... it may be good to get a kid watching in Chinese, but if he can click a button, get English and have loads of kungy fun, rather than struggling with the original, regardless of what good it may do him, then that's what he's gonna do - it's not my perogative. I'm just chucking them his way; glad a new generation is getting into them.

[Guest Chia Ling AKA Judy Lee]

Peringaten, please be a responsible pseudo-uncle and lend him films with oldschool dubs. I fear the ramifications of him being brought up on atrocious new dubs would be significantly worse than even those of exposing him to Wolf Devil Woman at such a tender age.

[Guest peringaten]

^ Aha, yes... I thought Jackie and Sammo, etc. would be a good place to start. I'll get him on some old-school dubs soon, then if he's up for it some og Mandarin/Canto shenanigans. Mwahuahaahaaa. Warp that child's brain with the wonders of kung. He loves it. Just avoiding anything a bit too adult as yet...

He saw the trailer for Iron Fisted Monk and has been asking about that one... I thought that might be a bit too adult - rape themes don't sit pretty. Denied!

[Guest Shaolin Patriot]

I also grew up with the dubs and enjoyed them. Over the years I've come to enjoy subs more, since I get more out of the film.

Question: has anyone (i.e. Dragon Dynasty or Media Blasters) considered tracking down some of the people who provided the English dubbed voices? It would be interesting to learn how they were hired and why some voices were more dominant than others, etc. No doubt they had very busy schedules at the SB dubbing facility, since the same voices were used consistently between films.

[Guest Markgway]

I wouldn't show an 8-year old Iron-Fisted Monk. Some of Sammo's films tend to be quite violent (and in this case sexual). Try The Magnificent Butcher or Dreadnaught instead. Those are more PG-13.