Shaw dubs:I like them, you hate them. Let's talk about it

[Linn1]

Personally, I can take them or leave them, but I know fans like them. So who likes dubs? Or if not, why?

[bobo]

run out of tittles? IMAGE may have 10 dubbed shaws by the end if we are lucky--50 from DRAGON DYNASTY-- and 10 that we know of from MEDIA BLASTERS-- so far thats a grand total of 70. from all the info and rumours that i,ve read CELESTIAL is in possession of between 200 to 300 english dubbed shaws. so there should be a lot of tittles to go around-if some of these guys would do their homework and dig deep and push CELESTIAL for the truth. i know i for one would buy every english dubbed shaw-- regardless if it was hugely popular or not.:hat

[Guest The Running Man]

Dubbed Shaws??

I didn't know we were counting the films based solely on which ones have those crap English dubs. |I

And I never said anything about the entire catalogue of titles, I was just talking about the popular titles. Reading the Media Blasters list of the first lineup, I am very surprised Weinstein never picked up some of them considering that they were the biggest company digging in.

I'm also surprised that Image got a title like Legendary Weapons of China.

That's what I was talking about.

[Guest killer meteor]

Indeed, there is a lot more to these films than the dubs. I'd rather have a previously unseen film than another dub

[Guest Mantis FIST]

These are intended to be for the American market. So, to me, it would only make sense to see all the shaws, released in N.A., with the proper old english dubs!

[bobo]

i for one still believe that the success or failure of shaws released in north america rest on whether the english dubs are at least an option--without the dubs they won,t sell enough to be profitable. there are lots of tittles still available. does anyone here know how the sale of the dragondynasty shaws compares to the image sales? anyway a lot of the best tittles were dubbed so there should be enough movies to keep everybody happy.

[Guest The Running Man]

i for one still believe that the success or failure of shaws released in north america rest on whether the english dubs are at least an option--without the dubs they won,t sell enough to be profitable.

You're absolutely right. There's no doubt about that.

But I am not talking about including dubs in general. It's just that those Shaw Brother English dubs are crap.

They can still include them, but they're crap.

[Guest gfanikf]

It's just that those Shaw Brother English dubs are crap.

And what the one used on Shaolin Drunken Monk is excellent? Seriously, if the Shaws are crap then what is a good dub (and for the point of this argument, only classic kung fu from the period of 65-85).

[Guest The Running Man]

Shaolin Drunken Monk? Why are you bringing that up?

And there is no argument.

I just made a comment about bobo identifying the films as "dubbed Shaw Brother" titles and that just didn't make sense to me.

Then he starts talking about including dubs on DVDs and I have no problem with that. But it just so happens that those dubs are crap.

And gfanikf, you really should back up and think about that. Those Shaw Brother dubs are not good. That is a fact.

Where do you think all of that stereotype of bad dubbing comes from? Why do you think when people typically think of bad dubs they'll automatically think of dubs of old kung fu film and Godzilla films (which were done by the same hacks I might add)? Why do you think there is such a bad cloud over English dubbing and not so much foreign ones, when you take into account how many of those bad dubs were made?

Nostalgia is fine, but to say those dubs of Shaw Brothers are good is to live in a fantasy world. Those dubs did far more harm than good.

[Guest killer meteor]

Those Shaw Brother dubs are not good. That is a fact.

No, it's an opinion

Personally, I don't think they are very good but compared to the other HK dubbing teams, they come out the best of the bad. If only the guys who did City Hunter were around then

[Guest Austin Jones]

You know, it would sure be nice if the Running Man would run the hell on down the road. I swear to Christ, it's like hearing a record stuck on "annoying".

All your high-and-mighty bs about dubs=crap, subs=heaven is nothing more than an opinion. And as they say, opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one.

The Shaw English dubs are good, in that they amuse and entertain those who might not otherwise even give two craps about a kung fu flick. They are also good because of the nostalgia factor; I can't speak for everyone, but I grew up watching these "crap" dubs, and enjoyed imitating them with my friends. Another reason for their inherent goodness? They have been sampled over and over again for different music projects, films, etc. Sure, the voice actors sound funny, but that's part of the charm.

So, to write these dubs off as crap is highly dismissive, snobby, and most certainly, not a fact.

Thus endeth the rant...

Austin Jones

[bobo]

i love the old dubs--in fact everyone i know that still watches kungfu movies love the old dubs and all state time and time again that they wouldn,t even think about watching a kungfu movie without them. people have suggested to me how much cooler jet li movies would be with the old dubbing voices. i,m constantly being told that when anyone watches any of the new kungfu movies that its just not the same without the old voices. people also suggest all the time that someone should round up as many of the old dubbing teams as they could find and dub any shaws that were never dubbed. so maybe to some people the old dubs are crap but to me and a lot of others their gold.

[Guest Megaloman]

i don't know how they could have done more harm than good- it was through the dubs that most people SAW the movies in the first place (in English speaking countries). growing up in CO, we didn't have anywhere like Chinatown that would show subtitled movies.

so if making countless fans is "more harm than good" that's news to me.

David

[Guest The Running Man]

Austin Jones,

You know, it would sure be nice if the Running Man would run the hell on down the road. I swear to Christ, it's like hearing a record stuck on "annoying".

Well, that's too f'ing bad. I've been on this forum for years and I ain't going anywhere just cause you find my comments on this issue "annoying".

All your high-and-mighty bs about dubs=crap, subs=heaven is nothing more than an opinion.

The real BS is how warped your version of my view on this is. This isn't about "dubs=crap, subs=heaven". This is about "Shaw Brother dubs = crap".

The Shaw English dubs are good, in that they amuse and entertain those who might not otherwise even give two craps about a kung fu flick.

Yes, they amuse and entertain for all the wrong reasons.

They are also good because of the nostalgia factor; I can't speak for everyone, but I grew up watching these "crap" dubs, and enjoyed imitating them with my friends.

Good for you. And I noted that before. Nostalgia is fine. It's when you pretend that they are well made that it becomes an issue.

Another reason for their inherent goodness? They have been sampled over and over again for different music projects, films, etc.

I fail to see a connection in how the sampling of audio clips makes those dubs of the "inherent goodness" kind.

Sure, the voice actors sound funny, but that's part of the charm.

Sound funny? So basically you know that they are bad and enjoy it cause they are bad but for some reason you just can't admit they are.

Those people sounded "funny" because the voice "actors" were hacks and were made on the cheap and quick.

bobo,

i love the old dubs--in fact everyone i know that still watches kungfu movies love the old dubs and all state time and time again that they wouldn,t even think about watching a kungfu movie without them.

Everyone you know is not "everyone.

Megaloman,

i don't know how they could have done more harm than good- it was through the dubs that most people SAW the movies in the first place

First of all, those crap dubs were the way a lot of people first saw those movies because there was NO CHOICE.

It's not like someone at the box office would ask someone, "Excuse me sir. For today's martial arts film presentation we have an option of either watching the movies with the original language with subtitles or a horrendously produced dub version made by a bunch of hacks. What is your pleasure?"

Second, how you ask could these crap dubs do more harm than good? It almost single handily turned the genre into a laughing stock to the general public and has given a black cloud over English language dubs to this day.

And I repeat:

Where do you think all of that stereotype of bad dubbing comes from? Why do you think when people typically think of bad dubs they'll automatically think of dubs of old kung fu film and Godzilla films (which were done by the same hacks I might add)? Why do you think there is such a bad cloud over English dubbing and not so much foreign ones, when you take into account how many of those bad dubs were made?

[Linn1]

Well breaking a thread up like this Linn wasn't the best thing to do really.

Topic was about something else. People are gonna think this was a topic to start an argument or whatever.

first off, it was suggested to me simply to delete the MB thread and start over. I didn't feel that was fair to the people posting on the dubs subject, so I started another thread to contain the arguement. Considering how "I hate dubs/I like dubs" arguements have derailed threads countless times on this forum, I felt it was fair to simply move the arguement. That said, I personally don't care about the dubs one way or the other. And I largely agree that the dubbing has helped make this genre a laughingstock IMO. That said, I do understand people want them and I've urged every company I've worked for to get dubs if they're out there.

[Guest The Running Man]

first off, it was suggested to me simply to delete the MB thread and start over. I didn't feel that was fair to the people posting on the dubs subject, so I started another thread to contain the arguement.

I didn't mean this thread being made, I just meant the comments that were being carried over that were originally pertaining to the other topic.

Remember, the whole thing started because I wanted to know why bobo kept referring to the titles as "dubbed titles" in regards to the Shaw releases.

[Linn1]

I gotcha.

[Guest Markgway]

As long as the original language is included in mono and good subtitles are supplied... that's all that concerns me. If putting on an English dub helps sell these discs to Americans then I see no reason not to. If they don't include the dub... means nothing to me.

[Guest tigerstyles]

love eng dubs .. gotta be original old school.. non of that new crud.. its what got most of us into this scene and its class

not a necessity on remastered releases but def a welcome addition

[Guest gfanikf]

If they don't include the dub... means nothing to me.

I agree those Mandarin dubs are ass .

Seriously though in the age of DVD and multiple audio tracks, barring a legal issue (ie why FS can't use certain dubs that were made by Megastar); I don't think dubs vs subs should be a huge issue anymore. Everyone gets what they want.

Still my question to The RM if the Shaw dubs are crap, then what dubs are good (from the time period of 1965-1985)? I mentioned Shaolin Drunken Monk as an example of a really goofy dub that I can't imagine you would think is good (hence my question of what dub is good).

Actually as an aside about subs I love what Discotek did for their Ebola Syndrome disc (which I got about 2 hrs ago) they did new re-mastred subs and also included in their own words "the craptastically funny orginal subs". Just like what MB did for Bio-Zombie. As I said in this age, dubs or subs really doesn't have to be an issue anymore.

[bobo]

first off i would like to say that when i referred to the dubbed tittles obviously i meant english dubbed shaw bros movies--what else would i mean? besides i have always stated that north american released shaw tittles should include both the mandarin and the english sound tracks. that way people can watch the version of their choice. as bad as some people think the dubs are it sure didn,t stop millions of fans from flocking to the theatres to watch them back in the old days and it sure doesn,t seem to discourage them from still buying them to this very day. every dvd outlet that i find kungfu movies at is selling them with the dubs--i was in wal mart in toronto about 2 weeks ago and they had big drums filled top to bottom with kungfu movies--you know the 2 and 3 dollar specials and they were all dubbed and most only had the english version and people of all races were buying them up--some people were taking 10 at a time--they certainly weren,t put off by the dubs. besides that- just from a business standpoint it makes sense to include the dub to insure good sales. i still say like em or not the inclusion of the english dubs are essential to the success or failure of the north american released shaws. prove me wrong.

[Guest Megaloman]

it's ALL the dubs fault these movies were not considered the best of ALL TIME. yeah. that's the reason.

besides, the movies were all shot silent and dubbed over in many languages, sometimes with the original actors voices, sometimes not, so you are getting dubs no matter what language you listen to.

making fans of these movies is never a bad thing. i've never listened to the English dub and thought, "wow, this is so bad i have to only laugh at the movie and not enjoy the story or only pretend to like it so i can be ironic about it later".

David

[Guest killer meteor]

The Shaws dubs I like because the majority of the performers are genuinely entertaining and do a good job. It's a pity Effeminate Old Coot (Chen Kuan-tai in Heroes Two) and Effeminate Snob Who Was Formally A Taxman (Wei Pei in Five Venoms) let the side down

Other old school dubbers I'm not keen on. The GH team did a good job sometimes - and they dubbed a few Shaws - but that OTT English lot (Fearless Hyena, Tattoo Connection) and the group who did latter Shaws like Chinese Super Ninjas REALLY annoy me!

The 70's Mandarin dubbing for HK cinema went downhill in quality. Lame assed delivery, coupled with poor casting (I doubt Kuo Choi sounds that old!) makes the English versions sometimes preferable for entertainment value

[Guest jmungus]

just my 2 cents and then some........

1. DUBS ARE CRAP in general as they vastly diminish the overall quality of a movie in that they...

a) distort a movies`original vibe as a whole.

dont reproduce a characters`personality and emotions as created originally by the (voice) actors.

c) need to be among the elite few top notch dubbing jobs to come even close to the technical quality (flow, 'matching' voices, vocal characteristics, timbre etc, connotation,.... of speech) of the original dub.

d) are sub par products (not always done by sub par 'professionals', but even a-list tv/movie/theater actors with dubbing experience cant do the magic & most of the ppl dubbing kf flix do not happen to be a-list actors ) no matter the studio, country, genre.

2. i can APPRECIATE DUBS cause...

a) its inconvenient to read along with your movie when u re starting to get sleepy. late nite slots are reserved for dubs or original engl. lang. movies!

cuz i too get a (brief) nostalgic vibe from them (every now and then; but in the bigger picture, the nostalgia-factor is really no big deal afaiac- im 99.9% sure i`ll never watch an (engl dubbed) SB caper again in my lifetime).

c) a few are kinda good in their own right; a number of them are decent enough not to be bothersome in any way; some are fun to listen to (trash-appeal).

d) i didnt know it any better for 12, 13 years; before i watched an asian flick with original audio and subbed for the first time in my life in ~1996/97

as for SHAW ENGL. DUBS in particular...

a) depending on the movie (ie cheese factor, the respective movies`scope and plot depth, subject matter, flair/style....) some of em fall in the category of 2b and 2d.

tryin to do what i consider adopting the most objective approach possible, i`d have to admit those shaw dubs are pretty shite for the most part.

last SB flick i`d watched dubbed was "flag of iron", a few months before its celestial rls (bad timing, and now i still havent watched the remastered ivl cuz i need some serious time lag between re-viewings or else i get easily bored, but thats another story :rolleyes )

anyhoo- FOI, nothing great, but sufficient i guess.... UNLIKE the engl. dub of "heroic ones" for instance, that i`d switch to for a couple of lines every now and then and boy that one sucked so badly i couldnt believe my ears. compared to orig.dub+subs, i`d rate this 'rendered unwatchable by dub'!!!

(would be another story if theres no proper orig.dub+subs available).

the whole dub/subs controversy boils down to 2 things:

ignorance and laziness (tho i wont necessarily put that on us, the english speaking fans, or just non-asian fans around the world in general), but theres no pro valid enough to make up for the gigantic con that i listed at the beginning.

im tellin u- ignorance and laziness, thats the core of the matter. :smokin

need to put lipstick on the pig if u plan on sharing a sty. :b

[Guest venomchamber]

Wow.

Its amazing what I read on here.

There are a lot of ungrateful people out there, that's for sure.

Living in the United States, England or Austrailia, one would assume the English language is preferred.

Now, we finally have legit English language releases coming our way and all I read is a lot of complaining about it.

I'm curious: where and how did most of you people first see a shaw film? Most Americans over the age of 45 first saw them in theaters back in 1973. They were in English and you loved 'em.

American fans over the age of 35 first saw them broadcast over television on either Drive-In Movie or Black Belt Theater from 1981 to 1986. They too were in English and you loved 'em.

The dubbed versions coming our way now some quarter century later are the same dubbed versions you loved back in the day!

There is also a distinctive difference in the dubbing between Shaws and several other companies. Shaw films were almost exclusively dubbed by the same voice actors for their entire duration. Sadly, I do not know the name of the actors, or the studio that they recorded for, but I can break it down for you like this:

the "Rover" voices heard in the early 70s films such as Duel Of The Iron Fist, 5 Fingers Of Death and Triple Irons,

the "but still" voices heard in all of the Fu Sheng/Venoms/Master Killer films of the mid to late 70s,

the "fall down" voices heard in Shaw films from 1981 onward including Instructors Of Death, Spearman Of Death, Roar Of The Lion and Super Ninjas,

and then come the "wanker" voices you rarely heard in Shaw films (like Blast Of The Iron Palm which was dubbed much later on) that are most commonly heard on Ocean Shores videos and Golden Harvest films. These are the voices everybody dislikes from films like Shaolin Drunken Monk and Ninja In The Deadly Trap where the voice actors have heavier accents and use much more profanity. These are the voices you would hear on most (again, not all) tapes you rented from the video store.

Japanese films were usualy dubbed by Titan (the same people who dubbed spagheti-westerns and sword & sandal pics) or Peter Fernandez of Speed Racer fame and used a stereotypical Japanese accent that can be heard in either Godzilla Vs The Smog Monster or The Street Fighter with Shinichi Chiba!

...and you loved those voices too.

The voices you hear on the DVDs are the same ones you heard back then!

The bad rep these films got wasn't because of the voices, but because of the subject matter. Yes, there were a few films with bad sync, but these were called chop-sockeys, not chop-talkies! They were rated R and the theaters were packed with blacks & hispanics. Film critics were too afraid to even enter the theater and stereotyped these films as being catered to thugs and hooligans. White people stayed away (except for a few of us like myself, Quentin, and a few of you) and watched American films like The Exorcist, Jaws and Saturday Night Fever.

During this time, many of us also ventured into Chinatown where we were treated to new releases in Chinese with subtitles. (How many of you remember seeing Crippled Avengers at The Music Palace on Bowery?)

When kung-fu movies came to TV in the 80s, they received a great deal of exposure they didn't get during their theatrical play.

After the closing of the Shaws, I as well as many of you had to resort to tape collecting.

Regretably, I never had the opportunity to go to college to learn to speak fluent Cantonese or Mandarin, so I prefer English as I am sure many of you do as well. I also prefer English because of the nostalgia factor...that was how I saw the vast majority of films in the first place!

Now, for those of you who prefer Cantonese or Mandarin, there's about 500 SB films waiting for you to buy them in Chinese video stores and online right now! Why would you want Image (or any other company for tha matter) to maintain releasing Chinese language versions when they're already readily available? What's more, if you know Chinese so well, what do you need subtitles for? Are you gonna read the movie or watch it? I can understand if we had no choice and it was the only possible way, but these companies are giving us a choice by releasing English versions here in the U.S. instead of just the IVLs or Deltamacs.

So quit your bitching already and be grateful for what we have before we wind-up with nothing at all!

*Younger fans 30 and under first saw them on videotape or DVD is various languages and in various states of quality. In fact, many younger fans never truly saw a Shaw film unless it was a crappy bootleg bought off the street or at a flea market. I've also realized many (not all) younger fans cannot even identify a Shaw film unless it has their name in the opening credits. I've had many fans ask me over the years if films like "One-Armed Boxer", "Master Of The Flying Guillotine", "Shaolin And Wu-Tang" or "The 9 Demons" were made by Shaws, as well as many other independant Taiwanese films released by Ocean Shores video. (It is these fans I try the most to enlighten and inform by offering accurate information pertaining to the Shaw Studios.)

Then there are even those who think the entire genre was started by John Woo when he made The Killer and simply have no idea. Yeah, they're out there.