The Big Three and the decline of Hong Kong action cinema

[mindshock]

[UPDATES AT THE BOTTOM OF THE POST!]

So, aspects of this have obviously been discussed, but wanted a single comprehensive thread focusing on "the Big Three" and the decline of Hong Kong action cinema and the main factors contributing to the decline (obviously there are many). 

WAS THERE AN EXACT YEAR/MOVIE?

If one had to pinpoint when the decline started, should that be done simply on the basis of box office returns? Or is there much more to it? One could argue Sammo Hung's "Carry on Pickpocket" (1982) launched the "modern" action frenzy. But how long did it last?

Let's examine the transition from "old school" to "modern action". 

Sammo Hung
 

THE IRON-FISTED MONK (1977)

Theatrical Run (HK): 08/25/1977 - 09/08/1977

Box Office: HK $2,283,594.4

WARRIOR TWO (1978)

Theatrical Run (HK): 12/28/1978 - 01/11/1979

Box Office: HK $2,863,467.8

KNOCKABOUT (1979)

Theatrical Run (HK): 04/12/1979 - 04/25/1979

Box Office: HK $2,830,519.8

ODD COUPLE (1979)

Theatrical Run (HK): 08/09/1979 - 08/22/1979

Box Office: HK $2,961,417

MAGNIFICENT BUTCHER (1979)

Theatrical Run (HK): 12/19/1979 - 01/02/1980

Box Office: HK $3,945,341.4

TWO TOOTHLESS TIGERS (1980)

Theatrical Run (HK): 08/28/1980 - 09/03/1980

Box Office: HK $1,728,429

ENCOUNTER OF THE SPOOKY KIND (1980)

Theatrical Run (HK): 12/24/1980 - 01/08/1981

Box Office: HK $5,675,626

THE PRODIGAL SON (1981)

Theatrical Run (HK): 12/22/1981 - 01/14/1982

Box Office: HK $9,150,729

Sammo's rise was huge, especially when the Prodigal Son (with Yuen Biao) raked in almost twice what Encounter of the Spooky Kind did in 1980! Sammo consistently outearned Jackie in the "old school" years until 1982....

CARRY ON PICKPOCKET (1982) - modern era action

Theatrical Run (HK): 03/31/1982 - 04/20/1982

Box Office: HK $11,809,432

THE DEAD AND THE DEADLY (1982)

Theatrical Run (HK): 12/22/1982 - 01/12/1983

Box Office: HK $10,104,527

Jackie Chan

TO KILL WITH INTRIGUE (1977)

Theatrical Run (HK): 07/22/1977 - 07/27/1977

Box Office: HK $292,664.9

SNAKE IN THE EAGLE'S SHADOW (1978)

Theatrical Run (HK): 03/01/1978 - 03/15/1978

Box Office: HK $2,708,748.2

DRUNKEN MASTER (1978)

Theatrical Run (HK): 10/05/1978 - 11/03/1978

Box Office: HK $6,763,793.4

SPIRITUAL KUNG FU (1978)

Theatrical Run (HK): 11/23/1978 - 12/06/1978

Box Office: HK $2,397,558

HALF A LOAF OF KUNG FU (1978)

Theatrical Run (HK): 07/01/1980 - 07/09/1980

Box Office: HK $1,526,871.5

THE FEARLESS HYENA (1979)

Theatrical Run (HK): 02/17/1979 - 03/07/1979

Box Office: HK $5,445,535

DRAGON FIST (1979)

Theatrical Run (HK): 04/21/1979 - 04/27/1979

Box Office: HK $1,004,276.2

DRAGON LORD (1982)

Theatrical Run (HK): 01/21/1982 - 02/13/1982

Box Office: HK $17,936,344

FEARLESS HYENA PART II (1983)

Theatrical Run (HK): 03/04/1983 - 03/10/1983

Box Office: HK $1,993,793

What's curious from Jackie's filmography, is he was always behind Sammo, and only had 2 real hits (Drunken Master and Fearless Hyena 1) until Dragon Lord (1982) shattered all previous earnings by a factor GREATER THAN 10 the same year that Sammo's Carry On Pickpocket (1982) catapulted the genre into the modern era. The following year Winners and Sinners (1983) would cement the "modern era" and initiate the transition into the "Golden Age" of Hong Kong Action cinema. 

THE GOLDEN AGE (high-grossing Hong Kong action!) and BEYOND...

WINNERS AND SINNERS (1983)

Theatrical Run (HK): 07/07/1983 - 08/03/1983

Box Office: HK $21,972,419 PROJECT A (1983) - Not quite "present day", but the first of The Big Three co-starring together. Theatrical Run (HK): 12/22/1983 - 01/11/1984 Box Office: HK $19,323,824 WHEELS ON MEALS (1984) - Big Three Theatrical Run (HK): 08/17/1984 - 09/06/1984 Box Office: HK $21,465,013

THE OWL vs BUMBO (1984) - Just Sammo

Theatrical Run (HK): 12/12/1984 - 01/04/1985

Box Office: HK $21,313,636

MY LUCKY STARS (1985) - Big Three

Theatrical Run (HK): 02/10/1985 - 03/08/1985

Box Office: HK $30,748,643

TWINKLE TWINKLE LUCKY STARS (1985) - Big Three

Theatrical Run (HK): 08/15/1985 - 09/10/1985

Box Office: HK $28,911,851

HEART OF DRAGON (1985) - Jackie and Sammo

Theatrical Run (HK): 10/16/1985 - 11/06/1985

Box Office: HK $20,335,429

POLICE STORY (1985) - Just Jackie

Theatrical Run (HK): 12/14/1985 - 01/10/1986 Box Office: HK $26,626,760

THE MILLIONAIRE'S EXPRESS (1986) - Sammo and Yuen Biao

Theatrical Run (HK): 01/30/1986 - 02/26/1986

Box Office: HK $28,122,275

WHERE'S OFFICER TUBA? (1986) - Just Sammo

Theatrical Run (HK): 03/20/1986 - 04/09/1986

Box Office: HK $16,822,229

LUCKY STARS GO PLACES (1986) - Just Sammo

Theatrical Run (HK): 06/20/1986 - 07/24/1986

Box Office: HK $23,109,809

RIGHT WRONGS (1986) - Just Yuen Biao

Theatrical Run (HK): 11/27/1986 - 12/11/1986

Box Office: HK $10,751,259

ARMOUR OF GOD (1987) - Just Jackie

Theatrical Run (HK): 01/21/1987 - 02/19/1987
Box Office: HK $35,469,408

EASTERN CONDORS (1987) - Sammo and Yuen Biao

Theatrical Run (HK): 07/09/1987 - 07/29/1987

Box Office: HK $21,606,063

PROJECT A II (1987) - Just Jackie

Theatrical Run (HK): 08/19/1987 - 09/10/1987

Box Office: HK $31,459,916

DRAGONS FOREVER (1988) - Big Three

Theatrical Run (HK): 02/11/1988 - 03/17/1988

Box Office: HK $33,578,920

POLICE STORY PART 2 (1988) - Just Jackie

Theatrical Run (HK): 08/20/1988 - 09/22/1988

Box Office: HK $34,151,609

PEDICAB DRIVER (1989) - Just Sammo

Theatrical Run (HK): 02/24/1989 - 03/16/1989

Box Office: HK $14,784,774

MIRACLES aka MR. CANTON and LADY ROSE (1989) - Just Jackie

Theatrical Run (HK): 06/15/1989 - 07/27/1989 Box Office: HK $34,036,029

THE FORTUNE CODE (1990) - Just Sammo

Theatrical Run (HK): 01/19/1990 - 02/20/1990

Box Office: HK $17,527,234

SHANGHAI SHANGHAI (1990) - Sammo and Yuen Biao

Theatrical Run (HK): 01/20/1990 - 02/15/1990

Box Office: HK $13,305,900

ENCOUNTER of the SPOOKL KIND II (1990) - Just Sammo 

Theatrical Run (HK): 02/09/1990 - 03/06/1990

Box Office: HK $13,581,385

SKINNY TIGER FATTY DRAGON (1990) - Just Sammo

Theatrical Run (HK): 06/28/1990 - 07/12/1990

Box Office: HK $10,270,954

PANTYHOSE HERO (1990) - Just Sammo

Theatrical Run (HK): 08/08/1990 - 09/13/1990

Box Office: HK $15,672,845

ARMOUR OF GOD II (1991) - Just Jackie

Theatrical Run (HK): 02/07/1991 - 03/22/1991

Box Office: HK $39,048,711

ISLAND of FIRE (1991) - Jackie and Sammo

Release Date (HK): 08/01/1991
Box Office: unknown? Rumored TRIAD involvement?

GAMBLING GHOST (1991) - Just Sammo

Theatrical Run (HK): 03/02/1991 - 03/13/1991

Box Office: HK $7,729,690

TOUCH and GO (1991) - Just Sammo

Theatrical Run (HK): 05/16/1991 - 05/22/1991

Box Office: HK $4,323,530

SLICKERS vs KILLERS (1991) - Just Sammo

Theatrical Run (HK): 09/13/1991 - 09/25/1991

Box Office: HK $5,724,819

MY FLYING WIFE (1991) - Just Sammo

Theatrical Run (HK): 11/07/1991 - 11/21/1991

Box Office: HK $5,874,865

TWIN DRAGONS (1992) - Just Jackie

Theatrical Run (HK): 01/15/1992 - 02/16/1992

Box Office: HK $33,225,134

GHOST PUNTING (1992) - Just Sammo

Theatrical Run (HK): 03/27/1992 - 04/15/1992

Box Office: HK $8,281,568

POLICE STORY 3 - SUPERCOP (1992) - Just Jackie

Theatrical Run (HK): 07/04/1992 - 08/05/1992

Box Office: HK $32,609,783

CITY HUNTER (1993) - Just Jackie

Theatrical Run (HK): 01/16/1993 - 02/10/1993

Box Office: HK $30,762,782

CRIME STORY (1993) - Just Jackie

Theatrical Run (HK): 06/24/1993 - 07/20/1993

Box Office: HK $27,439,331

DRUNKEN MASTER 2 (1994) - Just Jackie

Theatrical Run (HK): 02/03/1994 - 03/16/1994

Box Office: HK $40,971,484

RUMBLE in the BRONX (1995) - Just Jackie

Theatrical Run (HK): 01/21/1995 - 03/29/1995

Box Office: HK $56,911,136

DON'T GIVE A DAMN (1995) - Sammo Hung and Yuen Biao

Theatrical Run (HK): 02/17/1995 - 03/02/1995

Box Office: HK $5,085,770

THUNDERBOLT (1995) - Just Jackie

Theatrical Run (HK): 08/05/1995 - 09/27/1995

Box Office: HK $45,647,210

FIRST STRIKE (1996) - Just Jackie

Theatrical Run (HK): 02/10/1996 - 04/03/1996

Box Office: HK $57,518,794

-----------------------------------

MR. NICE GUY (1997) - Sammo directing Jackie

Theatrical Run (HK): 01/31/1997 - 03/20/1997

Box Office: HK $45,420,457

ONCE UPON A TIME IN CHINA and AMERICA (1997) - Sammo directing Jet Li

Theatrical Run (HK): 02/01/1997 - 03/05/1997

Box Office: HK $30,268,415

-----------------------------------

WHO AM I? (1998) - Just Jackie

Theatrical Run (HK): 01/17/1998 - 03/06/1998

Box Office: HK $38,852,845

RUSH HOUR (1998) - Jackie (HOLLYWOOD)

Box Office: $244.4 MILLION 

GORGEOUS (1999) - Jackie, Shu Qi, Tony Leung

Theatrical Run (HK): 02/13/1999 - 03/31/1999

Box Office: HK $27,545,889

SHANGHAI NOON (2000) - Jackie (HOLLYWOOD)

Box Office: $99.3 MILLION 

ACCIDENTAL SPY (2001) - Just Jackie

Theatrical Run (HK): 01/18/2001 - 03/07/2001

Box Office: HK $30,009,076

RUSH HOUR 2 (2001) - Jackie (HOLLYWOOD)

Box Office: $347.3 MILLION 

NEW POLICE STORY (2004) - Just Jackie

Theatrical Run (HK): 09/24/2004 - 10/20/2004

Box Office: HK $21,109,502

THE MYTH (2005) - Just Jackie

Theatrical Run (HK): 09/23/2005 - 11/02/2005

Box Office: HK $17,062,608

RUSH HOUR 3 (2007) - Jackie (HOLLYWOOD)

Box Office: $258.1 MILLION 

I know Jackie and Sammo have talked about the current state of Hong Kong action movies (as well as Hollywood/worldwide), but have any of them specifically commented on "the decline"? Admittedly I haven't really watched tons of interviews with either of them (and Biao doesn't seem to have given many in general?). But would it be fair to argue The Big Three actually LAUNCHED the Golden Age of Hong Kong Action cinema? Sammo set the stage with Carry on Pickpocket (1982) while Jackie built his undeniable starpower in Dragon Lord (1982), and then then 20-30-million dollar grossing movies followed....until they didn't.

THE "FALLING OUT"

Also, the "falling out" between Jackie and Sammo has been mentioned by some, but I was never able to find any EXACT DETAILS or EXACT INCIDENT(s). Was there even one? Or was it a slow separation over time? When did they all develop their own stunt teams? Has a timeline ever been produced?

Jackie Chan was known/rumored (even at the time) to be a womanizer and his public image wasn't that of highly moral/honorable human being. Jackie was obviously the most "popular", although Sammo was arguably more respected in reputation (and of course being "Big Brother" to Jackie anyway). Jackie's treatment of his stunt team has also been quite well known. Several sources also state that Sammo Hung himself had to support members of Jackie Chan's stunt team when Jackie wouldn't. Can this "falling out" really be a lynchpin moment in the decline of the entire industry? 

Was this simply a clash of egos? What's interesting, is even with Chan's seminal Police Story (1985), he still wasn't beating Sammo. It wasn't until Jackie broke all HK box office records with Armour of God (1987) that he officially became #1. Did this put a strain on their friendship? Jackie continued churning out hits while Sammo seemed to fizzle after 1991...in which he made a whole lot of movies, but they didn't do so well. Another curiosity, is that after Armour of God (1987) after Jackie becomes Box Office King, neither Sammo nor Yuen Biao appear in Project A II (1987). Dragons Forever (1988), a Big Three classic and box officer powerhouse, was also outearned by Jackie himself in Police Story Part II (1988) that same year. In the following years Sammo can't even maintain his previous Box Office earnings, and his films plummet while Jackie keep rising. No doubt Yuen Biao would probably be the best person for an extensive interview on all this. 

OVERSATURATION and BURNOUT?

Was the market simply oversaturated in its heyday? Not that there was a "lack of quality", but there was simply "too much"? Sammo Hung in particular was prolific, releasing a plethora of films almost every single year. Would less of a total number of films (but higher budgets and possibly participation of not only all of the Big Three, but other major stars) have maintained the Golden Age far longer? Around 1991, Sammo's individual movies tanked, grossing far less than even his biggest hits in the late 70s....Also curiously, Sammo's output dropped from 8 movies in 1990, 7 movies in 1991, to only 2 films in 1992, 4 in 1993 (small roles or cameos), and 0 in 1994 ("coincidentally" the year of one of Jackie's biggest hits - Drunken Master 2) and only 1 film in 1995 (Don't Give a Damn with Yuen Biao) and 3 smaller films in 1996. Anyone know what happened? It's as if Sammo, one of the most prolific (if not THE most) action star/filmmaker completely fizzled out in 1992..."coincidentally" while Jackie is flying high with HUGE box office films during this time.

1997 was another curious year.

Sammo Hung directed Jackie Chan in Mr. Nice Guy (1997) raking in a staggering HK$45 mil...the biggest gross of Sammo's entire career, which he didn't even replicate for Once Upon A Time in China and America (that same year), directing Jet Li, which grossed 30 million...was '97 Sammo's "last hurrah"?

MR. NICE GUY (1997) - Sammo directing Jackie

Theatrical Run (HK): 01/31/1997 - 03/20/1997

Box Office: HK $45,420,457

ONCE UPON A TIME IN CHINA and AMERICA (1997) - Sammo directing Jet Li

Theatrical Run (HK): 02/01/1997 - 03/05/1997

Box Office: HK $30,268,415

So where in the timeline does Mr. Nice Guy fit with their "falling out"? They reconciled for this film? And then what? Another "falling out"? They clearly could have worked together again....even with Biao...

GETTING OLD (not just physically)

Or is it really just a simpler issue - that Jackie, Sammo, and Yuen Biao simply "got old"? And I don't really mean physically (especially since they all seemed to be in such great shape they could all still pull off plenty of stunts/martial arts even into the late 90s). But there's only so much mental energy a human being has. With the rise of the Hong Kong action films and the "golden age", was it simply inevitable that the Big Three simply didn't have as much energy and passion (or desire to put their lives on the line to outdo previous stunts) as they during the rise? Especially without each other's friendships supporting each other? Another interesting aspect of the mental energy theory is that guys like Lau Kar Leung seemed to have more....from the 50s to the 90s this guy had staying power. Obviously there are many other details and I don't want to sidetrack this post with LKL, but another major factor is PROTOGES. LKL (and others from his time period) seemed to have mentored/help create stars. Did "The Big Three"?

LACK OF PROTOGES?

Obviously Sammo Hung is credited with being the "Big Brother" of both Jackie and Yuen Biao, however one could argue Jackie (and even Biao) had their owe "style" and weren't exclusively/primarily groomed by Sammo to becoming the next big action stars (certainly not when Sammo himself is only 2 years older than Jackie, and all of them having tons of extra/stunt experience before making it big).

But here's an issue that I don't believe gets talked about enough. The old school guys seemed to have constantly been creating YOUNGER SUPERSTARS to PASS THE TORCH TO, but did the "Big Three" ever do this? I'm not insinuating they aren't "good people", simply that in the modern era there were other distractions, etc...and they simply didn't. Perhaps they didn't feel anyone was "good enough"? But on the other hand, did they even try? There were so many talented guys on their stunt teams it's hard to believe ZERO had charisma/acting chops to become major lead stars (perhaps preventing the decline?). 

Look at Bruce Lee. Even after Lee's death, the industry didn't die. So many were TRYING to either fill his shoes or do something new in the genre (and succeeded, as evidenced by The Big Three). If Jackie, Sammo, Biao had shown more interest/effort in grooming stars to pass the torch to perhaps the industry wouldn't have fizzled out? 

Out of the three, perhaps Sammo tried the most, but I'm not local to Hong Kong, and as such haven't followed the press there. Did any of the 3 ever talk about their stuntmen/co-stars in such a way as to create hype/"pass the torch" type initiatives? I remember some American talk show Jackie was on in the early 2000s where they showed videos of wannabe stunt guys and screen fighters (they were actually quite good, as this was the early age of the popularization of Parkour, etc). They all obviously worshiped Jackie as well and all he did was trash them (I don't remember his exact words, but instead of giving them praise he said there's plenty of other stuff that goes into stuntwork in movies, fight choreo, that you have to be good at, etc. while dismissing their abilities). 

I'm not sure if Brad Allen even wanted to be a lead star, etc, but Jackie could have easily thrown his support behind him and made that happen. 

Have any of The Big Three talked anyone up in interviews/commentary/ANYWHERE in the context of "passing the torch", etc?

SO WHEN WAS THE PARTY REALLY OVER?

I might have to pick 1995 as the turning point. In another "coincidence", although not really, with Rumble in the Bronx (1995) shattering all box office records in Hong Kong and going "mainstream" all over the world, this might have been the "official" decline. Like many great things, once something goes "mainstream" it often times signals "the beginning of the end". One could also argue Jet Li held the industry up a little longer than it otherwise might have been (although this is also arguable, as outside of the Once Upon A Time in China series) his numbers weren't as big as Jackie's, and his most productive years were also pre-95), the party seemed to be over. I would also say Sammo Hung was no doubt instrumental in the rise of Hong Kong action cinema. Was his "fall" (or fizzle out) by 1992 also a signal for the industry? Jackie had HUGE hits all the way through Rumble in the Bronx (1995), but his output had slowed down quite a bit by then as well. While Sammo was churning out films like crazy in the early 90s, Jackie slowed down. 1994 was his least productive year, with "only" Drunken Master 2 releasing. Obviously this is a HUGE movie and one could even argue the "apex" of Hong Kong cinema. By Rumble the writing was already on the wall. Sammo wasn't doing much and Jackie was slowing down. 

Even with Sammo and Jackie reuniting for Mr. Nice Guy (1997) [HK$45,420,457 and US$31.7 million], it failed to outearn Rumble in the Bronx (1995) [HK$56,911,136 and US$76 million]. Opinions, vary, but in terms of quality, some prefer Mr. Nice Guy's action to Rumble's. Jackie was also injured in Rumble in the Bronx (1995), and this might have contributed to the decline as well. While Jackie is as tough a stuntman as there ever was (continuing to film through injuries), obviously it would be tough to outdo his younger self (even without injuries!). Had Jackie not gotten injured, could he have extended the "Golden Age" by at least a few more years?

1995 might have been "the last great year". Between Rumble (1995)[HK$56,911,136] and Thunderbolt (1995) [HK $45,647,210], Jackie raked in OVER HK$100 MILLION at the box office and went MAINSTREAM (something he failed to do with "Battle Creek Brawl" in 1980 and "The Protector" in 1985). 1995 also saw Sammo (even with Yuen Biao) fail to recapture any glory with the not well regarded "Don't Give A Damn" (1995) which didn't even approach the duo's early 1980s box office intake like "The Prodigal Son" (1981). It was really over?  

While 1996 did have Jackie making First Strike (1996) which did extremely well in HK [HK$57,518,794], it failed to outgross Rumble (1995) in the US. $53 million vs Rumble's $76 million. Mr. Nice Guy (1997) [HK$45,420,457] maintained the following year in the US with $53.7 million. By 1998, Jackie's Who Am I? (while making a dent in HK with [HK$38,852,845] only grossed $19 million in the US....which is actually LESS THAN BATTLE CREEK BRAWL (1980) (US$21.5 million). Jackie obviously enjoyed huge Hollywood success with the Rush Hour films, but this is him well past his prime and the action is nowhere near the dimension of the GOLDEN AGE of Hong Kong films. Even Jackie's New Police Story in 2004 [HK $21,109,502] couldn't recapture the glory and failed to outearn any of the previous entries in the Police Story series...

After all, nothing really lasts forever....but it would be interesting to hear the "real story" of "The Falling Out", Sammo's "burnout/fizzle out", etc...
 
More can be said about Donnie Yen and Hong Kong action movie's "resurgence", but there are so many more factors in recent years (CGI, MMA-type martial arts overshadowing the "mystique" of Chinese Kung Fu in real combat - although the popularity of the UFC seemed to have happened well past the decline of Hong Kong action anyway, so that doesn't seem to fit either, etc), that I wanted to focus more on the initial decline. I'm sure I missed a lot and there are a lot of knowledgeable people here, so looking forward to all those who can fill in the gaps/offer further insight!

UPDATE 1 

So, Bobby Samuels actually shed some light on a few different things in this interview - 
(3) Bobby Samuels: Hong Kong stunts, bringing Sammo's style to the US (Action Talks #9) - YouTube

1) Sammo's "dry spell". So Samuels stated Sammo was "having trouble getting funding" for his movies at a certain point (this is presumably post 92, and pre-95 (for Sammo's "comeback" Don't Give a Damn). It's hard to believe someone like Sammo, a pillar of Hong Kong action couldn't get funding, while an endless stream of low-budget action flicks was flowing uninterrupted. Can we deduce from this that Sammo only wanted to "bigger budget" films? And simply wanted a lot more money and refused to do anything "lower budget"? Bobby also stated that Sammo "knew people" in regards to Triads/organized crime. Triads actually funded a lot of films (not news obviously), but perhaps there is more to Sammo's story (and even the greater "decline") as it intersects with Triads/organized crime?

2) Sammo Hung apparently was on speaking terms with Jackie around 1994-1995, when told Samuels that Jackie wanted him for Rumble in the Bronx. Sammo said it was no problem and that Bobby could do it. So were they always on speaking terms and there wasn't actually any "falling out", or did they go off and on (everyone knows friends like this). 

HOWEVER, a short time later Sammo told Bobby that Jackie "pissed him off" and Bobby would not longer be doing Rumble in the Bronx for Jackie. Samuels didn't specify (if he even knew) what Jackie did to piss Sammo off. Was this THE MOMENT of the "falling out"? Or was it simply an incident in a long line of incidents?

3) "The Takeover"/"Handover" - 1997 - Britain relinquishes control of Hong Kong to China.

This is actually a huge piece of the puzzle I didn't even mention initially, but it seems Samuels is on to something here. He stated that all film business in HK  "slowed down" leading up the 97 handover. Him and Sammo were doing a lot of business trips to the mainland and many in the industry were unsure of what would happen after at the Handover. Also the Triads are a factor here as well (as supposedly their influence waned severely post 97 Handover). 

OUTPUT 

Let's reframe - 

1985
Sammo: 5 films
Jackie: 5 films

1986
Sammo:  3 films
Jackie: 2 films

1987
Sammo: 4 films
Jackie: 1 film

1988
Sammo: 4 films
Jackie: 2 films

1989
Sammo: 3 films
Jackie: 1 film

1990: 
Sammo: 8 films
Jackie: 1 film

1991
Sammo: 7 films
Jackie: 1 film

1992
Sammo: 2 films
Jackie: 3 films

1993
Sammo: 4 films
Jackie: 3 films

1994
Sammo: 0 films
Jackie: 1 film

1995
Sammo: 1 film
Jackie: 2 films

1996
Sammo: 3 films
Jackie: 1 film

1997
Sammo: 3 films
Jackie: 1 film

1998
Sammo: 1 film (1 TV show - Martial Law s1)
Jackie: 2 films

1999
Sammo: 1 film (1 TV show - Martial Law s2)
Jackie: 1 main film, 2 cameos

Another way to look at this is that Sammo's heyday was mostly the 1980s, while Jackie took his time with bigger, but fewer projects in the late 80s, which exploded at the box office, and continued with this slower formula, remaining highly successful until the mid 90s. Sammo leaned for quantity in the early the 90s and it cost him (as well as other factors).  Another interesting footnote, is quality aside (obviously Drunken Master 2 was phenomenal), how can a Golden Era last if there is simply not enough product? Compared to the amount of films coming out in the 1980s, 1994 was an incredible slowdown from which there didn't seem to be a recovery from. 

UPDATE 2:

Apparently there were TWO ATTEMPTS to get the Big Three back together. The first was Sammo's Don't Give a Damn (1995). 

According to screenrant (Jackie Chan Missed Out On Making 2 More Three Dragons Movies (screenrant.com)
there were two movies where a proper Three Dragons reunion almost happened. The first was Don’t Give A Damn, a Hong Kong martial arts comedy starring Yuen Biao and Sammo Hung. Released in 1995 and directed by Hung, Don’t Give A Damn was originally set to star Chan as well, but scheduling conflicts prevented this from happening.

Is this what "pissed" Sammo Hung off? Jackie initially agreed to co-star with him and Biao in Don't Give a Damn but then couldn't? Is this why Sammo was willing to let Samuels work on Rumble for Jackie but then reneged? 

 Years later, it was Chan who tried to organize a Three Dragons reunion via his 2006 movie, Rob-B-Hood. Yuen had a supporting role in the film, but Hung was absent. Similar to what happened with Don’t Give A Damn with Chan dropping out for Rumble in the Bronx, scheduling conflicts once again stood in the way, this time with Hung not being available.

I actually can't find any credits for Sammo in 2006....so not sure what the conflict could have been...although obviously a 2006 Big Three movie isn't the same thing as one in 1995.

Chan remarked in an interview that while the three felt like they made a “good combination,” they all agreed that they should split up before the audience could grow tired of them.

Screenrant claimed this, but is there a source for this interview?

It also doesn't really make any sense. The audience would grow tired of them together in a movie but somehow not separately? 

Many other sites and reviews mention "behind the scenes TENSIONS" on the set of Dragons Forever (1988), the last of the Big Three films...any specifics on these "tensions"?

UPDATE 3: THE SMOKING GUN?

So I found one article here (looks like some kind of auto-translate) - 

Jackie Chan was betrayed by Sammo Hung, a scene almost paralyzed him, the good brothers fell out with no cooperation for 7 years
https://inf.news/en/entertainment/319b88b98902b78e1c249337c62b0489.html

But Warners believed that Jackie Chan should make more urban action films like "Red Zone" instead of wasting energy on such "Western Kung Fu films", so under the suggestion of "Warner Films", they invested in Jackie Chan An urban action comedy film "A Good Man" was released, and the "Western Kung Fu film" was temporarily shelved, but what was unexpected was that Sammo Hung told Tsui Hark about Jackie Chan's idea, and the two even Contacted Jet Li and made this idea into a movie, which is "Once Upon a Time in the Western Regions"

The article alleges that Sammo stole Jackie's ideas (plan with Warner Brothers) and incorporated them into Once Upon a Time in China and America with Jet Li? Doesn't really make a lot of sense...

Jackie Chan was very angry when he heard the news, but in order to prove that he could shoot better, he still used this idea to shoot the movie "Who Am I". Although Sammo Hung apologized to Jackie Chan after this incident, the two later They haven't been in the same frame for nearly 7 years. It was not until the filming of "Around the Earth 80 Days" in 2004 that they appeared together again in the audience's field of vision.

How bad is this translation? And even if this is true, does it oversimplify everything? Seems like "TENSIONS" during Dragons Forever (1988) was the true catalyst...

UPDATE 4:

Jackie Chan's own stunt team SPLIT FROM him?!

According to this forum - 

Jackie Chan's emotional reunion with his original stunt team [PSA: grab some tissues] | Page 3 | NeoGAF

He's Jackie Chan, if he really wanted to see any of his original stunt team members since their split in 1992, he could have done so at anytime.
"stunt crew team left him by their own will since they needed other jobs/ways of living. "

 

 

So this happened in 1992? Is there any more info on this? Did this happen during/after Twin Dragons?

This also seems like it could be a contributing factor as Chan's output dropped tremendously around this time...

Edited December 18, 2023 by mindshock

[ChillyChong]

I did read or talked about with someone who said Jackie Chan and Tsui Hark were main ones to blame disappearance of traditioal kung fu movies. I guess there is some truth in it but times changed. And they do all the time. Rapid editing, wires etc may go out of fashion one year. or decade.

And while prefer old school movies I have to say some of actors who were exceptional on screen fighters they were pain to watch in dialogue scenes. Youngsters may lack some fight skill but some of them compensate with good acting.

Thx for figures, surprised Millionaires Express did that well. It is great movie surely

Edited December 18, 2023 by ChillyChong

[sym8]

39 minutes ago, mindshock said:

Have any of The Big Three talked anyone up in interviews/commentary/ANYWHERE in the context of "passing the torch", etc?

I’ve never heard any interviews where they have bigged up any talent but I do remember Jackie talking about looking for some new young blood but it was difficult to find people with the same skill set.

 

22 minutes ago, ChillyChong said:

I did read or talked about with someone who said Jackie Chan and Tsui Hark were main ones to blame disappearance of traditioal kung fu movies

I always felt Jackie wasn’t that great at the traditional Kung fu fight choreography.As good as some of the movies are(DM,SITES,etc)Sammos stuff was far superior,and Jackies big hits Dragon Lord,The Young Master didn’t contain much traditional fight choreography if any at all.I think he just decided I’m done with this stuff and let’s do something new.

[ChillyChong]

4 minutes ago, sym8 said:

 

 

I always felt Jackie wasn’t that great at the traditional Kung fu fight choreography

He was good but not among best. However he did fine in acting and in acrobatic/agility moves too, Dunno if discussed but he rarely used weapons....

[mindshock]

2 hours ago, sym8 said:

I’ve never heard any interviews where they have bigged up any talent but I do remember Jackie talking about looking for some new young blood but it was difficult to find people with the same skill set.

 

I always felt Jackie wasn’t that great at the traditional Kung fu fight choreography.As good as some of the movies are(DM,SITES,etc)Sammos stuff was far superior,and Jackies big hits Dragon Lord,The Young Master didn’t contain much traditional fight choreography if any at all.I think he just decided I’m done with this stuff and let’s do something new.

When Jackie was talking about "same skill set" was he referring to acting/charisma, etc? Because half the guys on his team were better than him (and even doubled him) when it came to martial arts/stunts....

[ChillyChong]

10 minutes ago, mindshock said:

When Jackie was talking about "same skill set" was he referring to acting/charisma, etc? Because half the guys on his team were better than him (and even doubled him) when it came to martial arts/stunts....

Have you gone throught booklet in Young Master limited editon?I am not that big fan of Jackie but like him to some degree. Assuming things in booklet are accurate he worked really hard and had some luck. But he became star mostly because of his own ability, Yuen Woo Ping saw what Jackie can do. Lo Wei probably saw it too but somehow connection failed partly.

 

[sym8]

4 minutes ago, mindshock said:

When Jackie was talking about "same skill set" was he referring to acting/charisma, etc? Because half the guys on his team were better than him (and even doubled him) when it came to martial arts/stunts....

I think he was referring mainly to the physical side.The stunt guys on his team were better martial artists than him but Jackie wasn’t solely interested in martial arts in his fight scenes.If you watch Miracles or operation condor he does very little Kung fu/martial arts,it’s mainly him dodging with the odd punch or kick thrown in.Sammos fight’s especially in the modern setting were 70%of martial arts and 30% stunt work,where as Jackies was the opposite.

[sym8]

2 hours ago, ChillyChong said:

Dunno if discussed but he rarely used weapons....

I think he used weapons plenty of times but they weren’t stand out scenes.I think Mark Houghton said on the set of Drunken Master 2 he was asked to do certain things and struggled to cope with what Lau Kar Leung was asking.(hence the parting of ways)

[mindshock]

9 minutes ago, ChillyChong said:

Have you gone throught booklet in Young Master limited editon?I am not that big fan of Jackie but like him to some degree. Assuming things in booklet are accurate he worked really hard and had some luck. But he became star mostly because of his own ability, Yuen Woo Ping saw what Jackie can do. Lo Wei probably saw it too but somehow connection failed partly.

 

I wasn't doubting Jackie's ability (I'm actually a big fan). I was just saying there are tons of guys who can do what he can do (and better) in the martial arts/stunt department. But NOT in the acting/charisma department. The guy can do it all (even sing). I was just wondering if he was referring to new talent being lacking in physical abilities (because that's obviously not true). 

[mindshock]

2 hours ago, ChillyChong said:

He was good but not among best. However he did fine in acting and in acrobatic/agility moves too, Dunno if discussed but he rarely used weapons....

You mean traditional kung fu weapons? Or any weapons?

the playground fight in Police Story 2 with the metal sticks is some of the best ever filmed...

[ChillyChong]

2 minutes ago, mindshock said:

You mean traditional kung fu weapons? Or any weapons?

the playground fight in Police Story 2 with the metal sticks is some of the best ever filmed...

He used broadsword in movie.shy to say dont remember,dm2?.3section staff in new fist of fury?yuen biao used bench vs jackie,did he have pole?or pipe.but i think safe to say jackie used weapons quite rarely

[mindshock]

21 minutes ago, ChillyChong said:

He used broadsword in movie.shy to say dont remember,dm2?.3section staff in new fist of fury?yuen biao used bench vs jackie,did he have pole?or pipe.but i think safe to say jackie used weapons quite rarely

Depends on what you mean by "rarely". He had some great weaponwork in Fearless Hyena (1979), and always used some kind of weapons as props in modern films (ladder fight in First Strike, pool cues in Rush Hour, heck all the Rush Hour and Shanghai Noon movies had some kind of prop/weapon work). Even doing plenty of swordwork in the past 15 years or so (The Myth, Dragon Blade). 

Doesn't seem "rare" at all...
 

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by mindshock

[ChillyChong]

10 minutes ago, mindshock said:

Depends on what you mean by "rarely". He had some great weaponwork in Fearless Hyena (1979), and always used some kind of weapons as props in modern films (ladder fight in First Strike, pool cues in Rush Hour, heck all the Rush Hour and Shanghai Noon movies had some kind of prop/weapon work). Even doing plenty of swordwork in the past 15 years or so (The Myth, Dragon Blade). 

Doesn't seem "rare" at all...
 

 

Fair enough.he is great with spear in hand of death.he used spear too in aog2 but not sure did he fight anyone with it or was just show

Edited December 18, 2023 by ChillyChong

[Yihetuan]

The fact that trio lasted as long as they did is still amazing considering the egos at play & the general decline of the HK film industry as a whole.

[mindshock]

6 minutes ago, ChillyChong said:

Fair enough.he is great with spear in hand of death.

Yeah, there are a ton that I forgot about (weren't even in the videos linked)...

But most of the best one-on-one scenes that stand out seem to be the hand-to-hand ones. The guy just has such a huge catalogue...

[mindshock]

2 minutes ago, Yihetuan said:

The fact that trio lasted as long as they did is still amazing considering the egos at play & the general decline of the HK film industry as a whole.

That actually IS a great point. 

Do you have any opinions on the reasons for the general decline as a whole?

[ChillyChong]

Based on net impression yuen biao was most friendly guy.but just my guess

[dionbrother]

Couple of random trivia points I recall that might help your thesis.

Sammo lost a lot of box office appeal when he left his wife for Joyce Godenzi.  I often wonder if that might have been the real reason for EASTERN CONDORS flopping in HK.

The Jackie Chan fallout supposedly happened because Jackie declined the Kenny Bee role in MILLIONAIRE'S EXPRESS.  It was felt that the movie would have been a much bigger hit had Jackie been in the movie.

[DiP]

6 hours ago, mindshock said:

Do you have any opinions on the reasons for the general decline as a whole?

Some factors:

- Recycled ideas/concepts

- Piracy

- Competition with and influence from Hollywood movies

- The handover to China

- Other movie genres taking over (crime movies in particular)

- Less risk-taking in investing on new talents or breaking ground

Edited December 19, 2023 by DiP

[mindshock]

10 hours ago, dionbrother said:

Couple of random trivia points I recall that might help your thesis.

Sammo lost a lot of box office appeal when he left his wife for Joyce Godenzi.  I often wonder if that might have been the real reason for EASTERN CONDORS flopping in HK.

The Jackie Chan fallout supposedly happened because Jackie declined the Kenny Bee role in MILLIONAIRE'S EXPRESS.  It was felt that the movie would have been a much bigger hit had Jackie been in the movie.

hmm... very interesting. This is the type of info I was looking for!

85 was an interesting year. Perhaps Jackie not doing Millionaire's Express was the first major issue....but Jackie was busy on Police Story...and Jackie and Sammo had done My Lucky Stars/Twinkle Twinkle Lucky Stars and Heart of Dragon that year as well!

And they all reunited a few years later for Dragons Forever (1988), although it would be interesting know what carry-over tensions there were that manifested on that set....

So locally in Hong Kong was Sammo also seen as a womanizer like Jackie, or was it just that one incident with Joyce Godenzi? 

Wasn't Eastern Condors one of the highest-grossing Hong Kong movies at the time? Or was it seen as a "flop" simply because it failed to outearn the Lucky Stars entries or Jackie's biggest movies at the time? Only a few million behind Sammo's other entries...
 

Theatrical Run (HK): 07/09/1987 - 07/29/1987

Box Office: HK $21,606,063

Edited December 19, 2023 by mindshock

[dionbrother]

2 hours ago, mindshock said:

hmm... very interesting. This is the type of info I was looking for!

85 was an interesting year. Perhaps Jackie not doing Millionaire's Express was the first major issue....but Jackie was busy on Police Story...and Jackie and Sammo had done My Lucky Stars/Twinkle Twinkle Lucky Stars and Heart of Dragon that year as well!

And they all reunited a few years later for Dragons Forever (1988), although it would be interesting know what carry-over tensions there were that manifested on that set....

So locally in Hong Kong was Sammo also seen as a womanizer like Jackie, or was it just that one incident with Joyce Godenzi? 

Wasn't Eastern Condors one of the highest-grossing Hong Kong movies at the time? Or was it seen as a "flop" simply because it failed to outearn the Lucky Stars entries or Jackie's biggest movies at the time? Only a few million behind Sammo's other entries...
 

Theatrical Run (HK): 07/09/1987 - 07/29/1987

Box Office: HK $21,606,063

I don't think Sammo was a womanizer in the tabloids the way Jackie was.  Remember, Jackie's marriage was kept secret from the public at the time.  Another factor was the public rejected LUCKY STARS GO PLACES, turning on both Sammo and Karl Maka.  Viewed today, it's a fun movie, but the moviegoers at the time expected something special and were disappointed.

CONDORS was expected to do as well as Sammo's other movies and I think audiences did not care for it, though its gross is certainly respectable.  I've often read that it was blamed on the movie being too serious and mean.  Ticket buyers probably wanted something like Lucky Stars go to War.

 

[sym8]

6 hours ago, mindshock said:

So locally in Hong Kong was Sammo also seen as a womanizer like Jackie, or was it just that one incident with Joyce Godenzi? 

I think during this period and probably still to this day it was acceptable to have a mistress but not to marry her,that may have caused a problem for Sammo when he did.