Johnnie To

[masterofoneinchpunch]

Hi,

I noticed that some on the list or "Milky Way Productions", so have a Johnnie To feel but are directed by Wai Kar Fei or a protegee.

I really like "Exiled" and love seeing "The Mission" cast together, so not sure why people are saying to hold off on that.

...

Like Tsui Hark as producer, Johnnie To often has his hand in the Milky Way product. Sometimes he is the majority director (he took over directing because he wasn't happy with the direction) even with his name not on the movie like in The Odd One Dies or Expect the Unexpected.

RE: Wai Ka-Fai: when he gets the co-director credit Johnie To has stated that Wai doesn't usually do the direction just other aspects of the film like writer.

[ToryK]

Like Tsui Hark as producer, Johnnie To often has his hand in the Milky Way product. Sometimes he is the majority director (he took over directing because he wasn't happy with the direction) even with his name not on the movie like in The Odd One Dies or Expect the Unexpected.

RE: Wai Ka-Fai: when he gets the co-director credit Johnie To has stated that Wai doesn't usually do the direction just other aspects of the film like writer.

This is true. I believe To ghost-directed most or all of The Odd One Dies, The Longest Nite, and Expect the Unexpected.

As for holding off on Exiled, it would kind of be like getting into Woo for the first time through A Better Tomorrow, and then skipping straight to Hard Boiled. Work your way up to it and get to know To first.

[abbotwhite]

I would agree to a degree but I feel we a doing a disservice to the director of 'accident' for instance by giving most of the credit to Johnnie.

[DiP]

I don't necessarily label To's uncredited films his own films but more like "Milkyway films". But since the company is co-founded by him and he manages (which is no secret) most projects himself, I do have reasons to include films he's not credited as "director" still. You're right though about the people getting credited as director for his films, they shouldn't be dismissed.

[masterofoneinchpunch]

This is true. I believe To ghost-directed most or all of The Odd One Dies, The Longest Nite, and Expect the Unexpected.

As for holding off on Exiled, it would kind of be like getting into Woo for the first time through A Better Tomorrow, and then skipping straight to Hard Boiled. Work your way up to it and get to know To first.

To also ghost directed A Moment of Romance. But the degree into which he inserts himself in the uncredited films could be debatable. For example in The Odd One Dies as I noted in my review here, "Yau has stated of those three films he had the most input with this one".

I personally think the later films to get into To would be Throwdown, Sparrow (a little knowledge of new wave French films helps here too), or PTU. But I can see getting into Exiled after the co-directed The Big Heat or any of his 80s output (though some of it might turn you off like Lucky Encounter.) My experience with lending Exiled has been pretty good though. I also don't worry as much about the order, because rewatching the later To films tends to be a rewarding experience. You start to notice reoccuring themes, actors, situations and sometimes these are even played with.

[I Am Caine]

Incidentally, my introduction to John Woo was The Killer, then right into Hard Boiled. These were both in the 90s and this is what we had available - on video cassette btw. I also saw Ringo Lam's Full Contact during an Asian cinema series on a college campus.

[masterofoneinchpunch]

Incidentally, my introduction to John Woo was The Killer, then right into Hard Boiled. These were both in the 90s and this is what we had available - on video cassette btw. I also saw Ringo Lam's Full Contact during an Asian cinema series on a college campus.

Mine was Hard Boiled then The Killer on VHS (also during the early 90s.) My first Lam was also Full Contact, but that was on DVD.

My first Johnnie To was The Heroic Trio .

What is going to be your next To?

[ToryK]

See, mine goes Face/Off, Mission: Impossible II, A Better Tomorrow, ABT2, The Killer, and then Hard Boiled. I was around 14 when I finally got to it, I think.

[abbotwhite]

My first Johnnie To movie was kinda of "before he was Johnnie To", if that makes any sense.

It was All About Ah Long.

[ToryK]

My first Johnnie To movie was kinda of "before he was Johnnie To", if that makes any sense.

It was All About Ah Long.

I jumped smack-dab in the middle of him being "Johnnie To". I saw Fulltime Killer when I was 14, and it was the extra push I needed to invest myself in Hong Kong cinema. I'd already seen some of Jackie's and Jet's best stuff (the obvious, plus stuff like Wheels on Meals and Dragons Forever, Fong Sai-Yuk and Hitman), Woo's best. But Fulltime Killer showed me that there was a world outside of the obvious guys and it confirmed that, yes, HK movies kick a lot of ass. It was absolutely insane. All of that energy and that pop. I never looked back.

[DiP]

First J. Woo film for me was Face/Off.

First J. To film I watched was The Mission which is good for a starter.

[I Am Caine]

Mine was Hard Boiled then The Killer on VHS (also during the early 90s.) My first Lam was also Full Contact, but that was on DVD.

My first Johnnie To was The Heroic Trio .

What is going to be your next To?

Not sure where this conversation left off but I loved, loved, loved Drug War. Maybe I mentioned this already in the thread but the way the cop changes personalities as he changes who he's impersonating - there's dozens of little touches like that that make this film great. I have to believe Drug War was not its Chinese title, the movie is too clever. And it's not really about a Drug War!

Haven't seen another To since, but I'll tell you that I am lining up Jean-Pierre Melville movies. Le Circle Rouge is fantastic. I can see where To gets the inspirations - in the pacing, which is quick but seems to also focus on the mundane, and in the minimalism of the dialogue, and the way circumstances or situations evolve the characters. There's scenes in Cercle Rouge where the two main crooks become friends (the trunk scene, then the gun fight in the woods) that is quick but reveals so much. Le Samourai for me next, and then perhaps Army of Shadows, and back to To.

[I Am Caine]

BTW is it just me or is Melville pretty overlooked in world cinema? He died young and didn't make that many movies but he seems to be underappreciated.

[OpiumKungFuCracker]

BTW is it just me or is Melville pretty overlooked in world cinema? He died young and didn't make that many movies but he seems to be underappreciated.

Love his movies. Yeah I think most of my criterion titles are from Melville

[masterofoneinchpunch]

BTW is it just me or is Melville pretty overlooked in world cinema? He died young and didn't make that many movies but he seems to be underappreciated.

Yes and no. Ciniphiles have had a long love for him. Just take a look at the Criterion releases of him (I do own all of the Criterion Melville releases.) Look at all of the critic top lists that include him. Roger Ebert has several of his films in the "Great Movies" list. Guardian, Empire, TSPDT etc... mention him.

Directors such as To and Woo are huge fans of him. You see his work echoed in those directors quite often.

I lend out his films as much as I can, but often they are to people who have no idea who he is at first (understandable for younger people). It is the diehard world-wide cinema fans who tend to know him. I do wonder what he is thought of by people in France.

[KenHashibe]

My first Johnnie To movie was The Mad Monk (1993). It's not really for Johnnie To fans but more for fans of Stephen Chow. You can totally see that Chow had a lot of creative control. Some of To's older works are of a different style than what most know him for (i.e. The Eighth Happiness).

One of my favorite Johnnie To movies is Expect the Unexpected (1998). I love the theme of the movie showing that life has its ups and downs and that the happy endings that we see in movies don't usually happen in real life (which is further elaborated on at the end).

I saw Running Out of Time (1999) which is somewhat unrealistic (Andy Lau's character is overly smart and never seems to break a sweat) but the movie's thoroughly enjoyable nonetheless. Fulltime Killer (2001) was a bit pretentious but I still liked it. I haven't seen The Longest Nite or The Mission yet, but I plan to do so soon.

[masterofoneinchpunch]

... . Le Samourai for me next, and then perhaps Army of Shadows, and back to To.

Did you get to these yet? You can see so much influence in both To and Woo from those films (especially Le Samourai -- which you can see in so many later films especially the ones that delve into what I call the "psychotic loner subgenre".)

[Sheng]

I find it always baffling that discussions about Johnny To “recommendations” seem to focus almost entirely on his noir-ish crime thrillers, blotting out the man’s tremendous proficiency to helm “lighter” material that shows off his romance-related and comedic leanings. Sometimes these films are simply explained away as mere Mainland-pandering commercial stinkers (conveniently ignoring the fact that To dabbled in these genres aeons before HK filmmakers circled in on the booming Mainland market), stuff in other words that he’s “forced to do” in order to finance his “good films”. What’s rarely acknowledged by Western critics is that most of To’s comedies or rom-coms are done with a lotta flair, they’re extremely smart, well written, brilliantly acted, shot and edited affairs that oftentimes truly affect and should not be ignored by anyone professing even a casual interest in Milkyway’s variegated filmography. So unless you approaching HK cinema in strictly generic terms (meaning if it ain’t action or MA its not up your alley) then its really rewarding to watch at least DON’T GO BREAKING MY HEART, NEEDING YOU and LOVE ON A DIET. And that’s only for starters...

[Yakuza954]

They're definitely not Mainland pandering, since Drug War was the first one aimed at Mainland audiences, but the Milkyway rom-coms are definitely "works for hire" done to pay the bills. Johnnie To said so himself, during a 2001 interview with Senses of Cinema:

JT: At Milkyway Image, we aim for a balance between the kind of movies we like and the kind of movies audiences like. That is our goal. A few years ago, we only did the movies we liked. That would make the industry dead.

SK: You mean your dark, critically acclaimed films like Too Many Ways to Be No. 1 (1997), The Longest Nite (1998), and Expect the Unexpected(1998)? They were not exactly box office successes.

JT: [laughs] Yeah, these were not successful in HK, but of course, in the end, many people tell us “it’s a good movie, it’s a good movie, it’s a good movie…” But this kind of support is not enough to boost the industry. So, we decided in 1999 that we would shoot an audience movie first. We knew that if we were successful, then we would have the spare time and money to shoot the kind of movies we like, like Fulltime Killer. As a result, we were successful [with the hit Needing You]. The commercial movies we’ve released last year and this year are in fact getting good box office in HK. And I think that this will continue. Which means investors will give us money, and will give other producers money to shoot movies in Hong Kong. It’s not easy.

I'm not going to argue and say To and Wa Kai Fai can't make a good rom-com -- I enjoyed watching Needing You and Fantasia -- but most are forgettable fluff. All the sure-fire signs of a HK cash-grab are there, from the rushed productions made specifically for the Chinese New Year (Wu Yen, Love For All Seasons), to the overuse of a famous celebrity like Sammi Cheng (Yesterday Once More, Romancing in Thin Air, etc), who draws the eyeballs but is a sub-par actress.

They're not even the best from the oughts. I'd mention Just One Look, b420, and Crazy n' the City before To and Fai's offerings. Or I'd just recommend Pang Ho-Cheung's filmography.

[Sheng]

They're definitely not Mainland pandering, since Drug War was the first one aimed at Mainland audiences, but the Milkyway rom-coms are definitely "works for hire" done to pay the bills.

Wrong. DON’T GO BREAKING MY HEART and ROMANCING IN THIN AIR were the first Milkyway movies that were aimed straight at the Mainland market. DRUG WAR came later, was shot in Mandarin and also clearly Mainland-oriented, but at the same time it was designed as an experimental effort to ‘adjust’ the tried & tested crime thriller tropes the company stands for to fit Mainland sensibilities (and furtively circumvent censorships demands).

I know the SOC interview you’re quoting from, but its nor saying much. To has repeatedly stated how satisfied he is with some of the comedy / rom-core fare he directs.

I'm not going to argue and say To and Wa Kai Fai can't make a good rom-com -- I enjoyed watching Needing You and Fantasia -- but most are forgettable fluff. All the sure-fire signs of a HK cash-grab are there, from the rushed productions made specifically for the Chinese New Year (Wu Yen, Love For All Seasons), to the overuse of a famous celebrity like Sammi Cheng (Yesterday Once More, Romancing in Thin Air, etc), who draws the eyeballs but is a sub-par actress.

I agree, ROMANCING IN THIN AIR was by and large forgettable (YESTERDAY ONCE MORE I haven’t seen), but I thought Sammi Cheng’s acting was spot-on and certainly far from “sub-par” in NEEDING YOU and LOVE ON A DIET.

The “fluff factor” in To’s long filmography is undeniable, especially in the early, i.e. the pre-Milkyway years. THE EIGTH HAPPINESS was the epitome of ultra-commercial New Year fluff and it proved to be To’s biggest HK hit in his entire career. Still, it is clearly evident that To finds joy and artistic satisfaction in a good number of his rom-com exercises. They can’t be just uniformly written off as “cash cows” and the better ones – like the three I mentioned – are certainly anything but “rushed productions”. They’re simply well-made, intelligently scripted and superbly acted affairs.

They're not even the best from the oughts. I'd mention Just One Look, b420, and Crazy n' the City before To and Fai's offerings. Or I'd just recommend Pang Ho-Cheung's filmography.

CRAZY’N’THE CITY, call it a “cop soap” if you will, was a masterstroke but the film isn’t really comparable with To and Wai Ka-Fai’s more light-weight commercial fare. Nor is Pang Ho-Cheung's entire oeuvre, safe for a few ultra-accessible, Mainstream- (and Mainland-)friendly efforts like LOVE IN A BUFF or MEN SUDDENLY IN BLACK.

[Yakuza954]

I know the SOC interview you’re quoting from, but its nor saying much. To has repeatedly stated how satisfied he is with some of the comedy / rom-core fare he directs.

He clearly states he makes films like Needing You to finance the films he really enjoys.

Again, I'm not going to pretend like none of To's rom-coms are good. However, the majority are meddling commercial affairs whose main drawing points are the pretty faces of Andy Lau and Sammi Cheng. Now, to be clear, I consider Andy Lau a good actor, but for most of the To rom-coms he's just going through the motions, collecting a paycheck. So is Johnnie.

CRAZY’N’THE CITY, call it a “cop soap” if you will, was a masterstroke but the film isn’t really comparable with To and Wai Ka-Fai’s more light-weight commercial fare. Nor is Pang Ho-Cheung's entire oeuvre, safe for a few ultra-accessible, Mainstream- (and Mainland-)friendly efforts like LOVE IN A BUFF or MEN SUDDENLY IN BLACK.

You can say they're incomparable because To/Kai-Fai's work is "more light-weight commercial fare," but to me that just sounds like an excuse because their work isn't as daring, as smart, and as good. These are all mainstream films we're talking about; not arthouse affairs.

To reiterate, To and Kai-Fai have made good rom-com's, but not to the point where it's a travesty when people don't fully immerse themselves in their light-weight commercial fare. Most are designed to be disposable entertainment, and even among the better ones, superior HK genre offerings can be found elsewhere.

Want a real travesty? Compared to something like The Blind Detective, not nearly as many people have seen My Name is Fame.

[OpiumKungFuCracker]

The election films and Drug War are probably the only To film you need to see. The Election films might be the greatest Hong Kong films ever made. Who wants to dispute me on that? I didn't think so.

[DiP]

The election films and Drug War are probably the only To film you need to see. The Election films might be the greatest Hong Kong films ever made. Who wants to dispute me on that? I didn't think so.

Come on, just three films?

[masterofoneinchpunch]

I find it always baffling that discussions about Johnny To “recommendations” seem to focus almost entirely on his noir-ish crime thrillers, blotting out the man’s tremendous proficiency to helm “lighter” material that shows off his romance-related and comedic leanings. Sometimes these films are simply explained away as mere Mainland-pandering commercial stinkers (conveniently ignoring the fact that To dabbled in these genres aeons before HK filmmakers circled in on the booming Mainland market), stuff in other words that he’s “forced to do” in order to finance his “good films”. What’s rarely acknowledged by Western critics is that most of To’s comedies or rom-coms are done with a lotta flair, they’re extremely smart, well written, brilliantly acted, shot and edited affairs that oftentimes truly affect and should not be ignored by anyone professing even a casual interest in Milkyway’s variegated filmography. So unless you approaching HK cinema in strictly generic terms (meaning if it ain’t action or MA its not up your alley) then its really rewarding to watch at least DON’T GO BREAKING MY HEART, NEEDING YOU and LOVE ON A DIET. And that’s only for starters...

The fun aspect of going over To's ouerve is the different phases and the different material he has gone over in his career. I've enjoyed the lighter material and his comedies (for the most part except for a few like Lucky Encounter.) Love on a Diet is quite fun and well made (I have not seen Don't Go Breaking My Heart). I feel Sparrow is a masterpiece (my review) and is my top film of 2008. But yeah these films definitely help in understanding To as an artist and should not be ignored.

Your comments make me think how MA and Triad films sometimes are overly talked about by some reviewers and critics (with some exceptions like the later Stephen Chow films) ignoring some dramas and comedies. It is like not watching the non-westerns from John Ford. It also reminds me of Takashi Kitano and how some of his films can be slightly (or more) underrated like Kikujiro because it is not a Yakuza film. Though at least that film has a R1 release. Don't Go Breaking My Heart did not get one which aggravates me.

... YESTERDAY ONCE MORE I haven’t seen ...

Here is a mini-review I did on that film. If I do a rewatch I'll do a longer review/essay. I like Sammi Cheng as an actress so I really don't have anything bad to say about her.

The third in a series of romantic comedies staring Andy Lau and Sammi Cheng was the least successful at the box office in Hong Kong following Needing You (2000) and Love on a Diet (2001). The previous two were co-directed with Wai Ka-fai and while I have only seen Love on a Diet there is definitely a stylist difference one that fits in more of the To's auteur direction and themes. This film is more languid, more nuanced, less commercial, but is much more uneven then Love on a Diet (that film feels mostly like an American romantic comedy with the help of the special effects team from The Nutty Professor and I rate that film slightly higher ***/****).

The story centers around two professional thieves Andy Lau and Sammi Cheng who divorce at the beginning of the film for an unknown reason only to find themselves still in love as the years go by. Sammi is engaged to a rich momma's boy, but only because she is interested in his jewelry. Andy's character (they are never named) is jealous and decides to steal the very jewel she is interested in (causing the breakup of Sammi and her beau). The rest of the movie deals with their relationship until a tragic fact about one of their fates is learned.

The movie is quite beautiful to look as the locations vary from Hong Kong to Italy and the characters intrigued me (and often irritated me); however, the biggest fault was with the most unsatisfying ending since well Running On Karma.

While ultimately this movie fails as an aesthetic cohesive whole it has many interesting elements that would later be used in Sparrow to better effect. While Sparrow had references to French Cinema, this movie had several quite obvious homages to the original The Thomas Crown Affair from the introductory scenes reminiscent of the multi-splitscreen style used in that film to the relationship and the characters to one specific interview technique used in original film.

[the moose]

I am surprised that so far in this thread I haven't seen any mention of Running on Karma. It was one of the To/Kar-Fai collaberations. It's a quirky action comedy that stars Andy Lau and Cecelia Cheung. I really enjoyed it. I love all of his post-mission gangster thrillers. Throwdown is excellent too. Of course his earlier 90's movies Heroic trio, executioners and the bare-footed kid are all great, but To had not truley found his voice back then. I have Vengeance with french former pop star Johnny Halliday on DVD, still haven't got around to watching it yet. Any good??