Is Liu Chia-liang a bit of a d*ck?

[J.J. Hayden]

Don't challenge me to a Duel To The Death for this, I very much enjoy the work and martial arts skills of Liu Chia-liang (aka Lau Kar-leung) and respect what he did for the Hong Kong industry, but......is he a bit of a d*ck?

I can't bring up specifics I'm afraid (though I'm sure plenty of people on the forum will know stuff), as it's just something that came to mind as I was doing other research, but I'm sure I've noticed things that make me think he might've been.

I know he had several fallings out with other big names like Jackie Chan and Tsui Hark. In interviews with Won Jin, although WJ's very respectful of Liu, it does seem that he was difficult to work with. I've heard of other times (from his own mouth if I remember correctly?) that he saw US stuntmen practising and went up to them and said you're doing this all wrong, I'll show you the real way and after that they saw his style was superior etc. There were other things (I can't recall the specifics) that give me the impression he's one of those old Chinese stylists that look down on (if not out right spit on) styles from outside of China (or even inside China).

Like I said, I'm not trying to bring him down, I'm just curious about the matter.

Any thoughts?

[BigDruDogg]

Most perfectionists/masters of there craft come off as Assholes, and rub people the wrong way.. Think of Kobe Bryant/Michael Jordan/Tom Brady etc.. They all have had the Rep of not being the most likable, and dickish. I'm not saying it's acceptable, but the patterns are pretty slimier for ultra competitive people

[One Armed Boxer]

& that ladies and gentlemen, is how @J.J. Hayden got cancelled from the kung-fu community. 

I think what people mean by a "bit of a d*ck" is entirely subjective. He was clearly a perfectionist and took a lot of pride in championing authentic kung-fu. Working in the genre that he did, such perfectionism and dedication to authenticity could easily result in physical and mental exhaustion. However from a martial arts perspective the likes of Jackie Chan and Sammo Hung fall into the same category (I remember Leung Kar Yan saying he sometimes cried after shooting wrapped on, I think it was 'The Victim', because Sammo pushed him so hard).

[J.J. Hayden]

15 minutes ago, One Armed Boxer said:

& that ladies and gentlemen, is how @J.J. Hayden got cancelled from the kung-fu community. 

As with all communities these days, it was only a matter of time

What I'm meaning by "Bit of a d*ck" is that he seems arrogant and dismissive of others, which as you say comes with the territory, and he's certainly got the talent to back it up, but it seems to extend to the point where it's beyond what most people in the industry would put up with.

[Beardys Feather]

Is it arrogance though if you're that damn good? He had very high standards and was of the old school. 

Mind you, what he did to that monkey shows that yes indeed, he was a 

[J.J. Hayden]

17 minutes ago, Beardys Feather said:

Mind you, what he did to that monkey shows that yes indeed, he was a 

You'll have to elaborate on that. I have a very active imagination

[Drunken Monk]

I think Lau Kar Leung gave respect when respect was due. I’ve seen an interview on which he says pretty glowing things about Bruce Lee, for example.

But I do think he was a passionate man and very much believed in his style of film making.  He championed himself but why not? He was an incredible talent.

I don’t know the exact story about Jackie and Pops but it seems their falling out was “typical movie bullshit.” Today it’s known as “creative differences” and seems to happen an awful lot in Hollywood.

[dionbrother]

The Jackie falling out happened after Chan couldn't do the movements that Liang showed him. Liang insisted they do the real drunken boxing, not movie stuff.  JC's stunt team laughed at Chan's ineptitude so he fired LKL to save face. 

[J.J. Hayden]

22 minutes ago, dionbrother said:

The Jackie falling out happened after Chan couldn't do the movements that Liang showed him. Liang insisted they do the real drunken boxing, not movie stuff.  JC's stunt team laughed at Chan's ineptitude so he fired LKL to save face

That's interesting. I knew they fell out over the choreography, but wasn't aware it was because JC couldn't perform "real drunken boxing".

[massa_yoda]

30 minutes ago, dionbrother said:

The Jackie falling out happened after Chan couldn't do the movements that Liang showed him. Liang insisted they do the real drunken boxing, not movie stuff.  JC's stunt team laughed at Chan's ineptitude so he fired LKL to save face. 

Please cite source for “JC’s stunt team laughed at Chan’s ineptitude”…

 

[J.J. Hayden]

1 minute ago, massa_yoda said:

Please cite source for “JC’s stunt team laughed at Chan’s ineptitude”…

Yes, that would be most welcome.

[dionbrother]

40 minutes ago, massa_yoda said:

Please cite source for “JC’s stunt team laughed at Chan’s ineptitude”…

 

Mark Houghton.  Told the story in detail on Facebook.  Said Jackie even called him to return to the set to film the finale.  Mark told Jackie to call up his sifu to get his permission first and he would return to the set if LKL was ok with it.  He never heard back from Jackie.

[Little Deer]

I wonder if LKL's choreography from Drunken Master 3 was more the style he was looking for.

[dionbrother]

You'll notice DM2's finale is nothing more than a rehash of the fight from YOUNG MASTER.  No real kung fu there.  It's a nice stunt show, but doesn't fit in with the action of the rest of the film.

 

[J.J. Hayden]

13 hours ago, dionbrother said:

Mark Houghton.  Told the story in detail on Facebook.

Unfortunately that source is potentially biased, because (as you mentioned) Liu Chia-liang was his master. Do you have any other sources with the same memory of that situation?

[Kevin Chan]

I don't know what good can come out of this discussion.

 

On 1/19/2023 at 5:00 PM, dionbrother said:

You'll notice DM2's finale is nothing more than a rehash of the fight from YOUNG MASTER.  No real kung fu there.  It's a nice stunt show, but doesn't fit in with the action of the rest of the film.

But, you know, I mean. That's kind of his style since the early 80s. Less traditional Kung Fu, more action and stunt work.

EDIT: I've read your comment wrong. You mean the finale feels different from the rest of the movie. Makes sense. But I guess that happens when the director and choreographer changes.

 

 

[J.J. Hayden]

50 minutes ago, Kevin Chan said:

I don't know what good can come out of this discussion.

To satisfy my curiosity. I did put it in my first post. I just wanted to hear other people's thoughts or evidence for or against on the matter, as there's people here who know much more than me about the Shaws guys and Liu Chia-liang in particular.

 

52 minutes ago, Kevin Chan said:

Makes sense. But I guess that happens when the director and choreographer changes.

And the actor, as I believe it was meant to be JC vs Ho-Sung Pak, but he injured himself almost immediately jumping down the stairs, a shame for him but it lead to a great opportunity for Ken Lo to show his stuff.

[dionbrother]

19 minutes ago, J.J. Hayden said:

Unfortunately that source is potentially biased, because (as you mentioned) Liu Chia-liang was his master. Do you have any other sources with the same memory of that situation?

No, but I believe Houghton because his post had much more detail than I'm recalling here.  Jackie is notorious for hating classical gung fu choreography because it's too much hard work and every move has to be perfect.  Such moves are second nature to LKL so he has high expectations from his actors.   I've heard a lot of stories of what a jerk Jackie could be, going as far back as DRAGON LORD and all the way up to his recent "King Commie" phase.   Just recalled there's a recent Houghton Q&A video uploaded on Youtube that tells some of the details.  Some DM2 talk begins at 19:55.  

 

[J.J. Hayden]

38 minutes ago, dionbrother said:

Just recalled there's a recent Houghton Q&A video uploaded on Youtube that tells some of the details.  Some DM2 talk begins at 19:55. 

Interesting to here his recollection of events. Cheers for sharing.

[popsjnr]

To have an idea of what Lau si-fu was like, take the tale of stuntman Rocky Lee (who sadly passed away a couple of years ago)

Rocky Lee was the guy doing the splits up the wall for Wong Lung Wei in the alley in Martial Club)Mo Kwoon, a long time Lau Kar Ban member. After Shaws ceased film production Rocky moved into other stunt crews in modern day movies and ended up breaking his back in a stunt leaving him paralyzed.

The HK film people turned their backs on him, leaving him penniless except for one person...Lau Kar Leung kept him on his stunt team, and whenever he was filming Rocky was on-site in a fully paid role (many people, Mark Houghton included, always mentioned the guy in the wheelchair on the set when they first visited a Pops movie set)

Before he,  himself passed away, Rocky said at the last HKSA meeting that Lau si-fu was the reason he didn't starve to death (before the Stuntman Association formed and was able to assist injured stunt guys)

A dick??...no a true si-fu, and some guys (Chan etc) never learned true martial arts in the first place so weren't accustomed to a real Kung Fu master

[PandaPawPaw]

Can someone clue me in to why he's a dick (apart from being a perfectionist/arrogant) and what did he do to the monkey?

Edited October 22, 2023 by PandaPawPaw

[popsjnr]

In the full version of Mad Monkey Kung Fu/Fung Hao, Lau si-fu's monkey (that is used in his street show) is swung at high speed by it's chain then slammed into a tree, Lau si-fu also steps on its corpse during the short fight afterwards

As for arrogant I don't think he was that, he was a genuine master martial artist and most of the actors in Kung Fu fliks weren't of his level...which is true (some were students, others opera actors, some were taught on set)

[PandaPawPaw]

7 hours ago, popsjnr said:

In the full version of Mad Monkey Kung Fu/Fung Hao, Lau si-fu's monkey (that is used in his street show) is swung at high speed by it's chain then slammed into a tree, Lau si-fu also steps on its corpse during the short fight afterwards

That sucks! Poor monkey.

[SDJ]

When I was 13 I had an embarrassing argument with a friend over some cringeworthy fanfic we were collaborating on.

Now imagine the sort of arguments that can happen over multi-million dollar movies. Yeah. Who cares?

[Drunken Monk]

20 hours ago, SDJ said:

Now imagine the sort of arguments that can happen over multi-million dollar movies. Yeah. Who cares?

I think this is unfair. A lot of people care. Jackie and Lau Kar Leung working together was a dream come true for many kung fu cinema fans. Many of us invested a lot in the outcome. Granted, the final product was fantastic but it's only human to have a "What could have been?" reaction to your two favorites teaming up and making a full film together. 

I'm not having a go or anything. Just justifying my own investment.