Kid with the golden arm... A big let down

[Guest vengeanceofhumanlanterns]

Character development generally refers to a growth or change in a character over the course of a film, and it doesn't necessarily have to involve more than one character.

In fact I expected this very response upon logging out. You are absolutely right my good man, but in context to Venoms films, this is my interpretation of the character development involved.

[Guest remo]

In fact I expected this very response upon logging out. You are absolutely right my good man, but in context to Venoms films, this is my interpretation of the character development involved.

Yeah, it's not like many martial arts films particularly shine in this area. But like I said, it doesn't really matter -- that's not why we watch.

[Guest morgoth]

I agree Chinatown Kid. No reason we can't love both Sammo's style and the Venoms style:D

[Guest vengeanceofhumanlanterns]

remo, I must say I'm a bit surprised by your depth of character nature, and but for this reason would never really consider bringing up an Jungian concept to explain the characters developed by Chang Cheh and the Venom's themselves. In fact I cannot entirely agree, the fact is these characters depicted in the Venom's films are not archetypal images of the collective unconscious of human nature in their most primitive form, which is the actual description of an archetype's actual nature... an unconscious nature. Though, certain of the characters conceived in these films could very well depict an archetypal possession ie: any psychopath or severely neurotic role.

[Guest vengeanceofhumanlanterns]

As far as Sammo films vs The Venom films, I'm a big fan of both and enjoy their different styles, they each bring their own unique flavor to the action. I do think Kuo Chui is just as talented as Sammo as a screen fighter, after all they were both Chinese Opera trained and have the skills to back it up. Instead of saying who was best, i'd rather just enjoy each for their own special talents and styles.

Again I must say, that I don't (contrary to immediate appearences) negate Sammo in spite, but in these later years of appreciating these films, (I know why and overchoreographing is a culprit for me, though this is common even in Venom's and other classic martial arts films, the way they, jackie and sammo do it I just don't like), I really cannot appreciate Sammo and Jackie films at all these days. However, when I first got into these films I went thru all of these two actors films (this is a true statement). I'm not going to go into details, but this is just a fact of how my appreciation for this genre grew. There's actually no disrespect intended for those who appreciate Sammo and Jackie's films. I just can't stand their films at all these days.

[Guest teako170]

and but for this reason would never really consider bringing up an Jungian concept to explain the characters developed by Chang Cheh and the Venom's themselves. In fact I cannot entirely agree, the fact is these characters depicted in the Venom's films are not archetypal images of the collective unconscious of human nature in their most primitive form, which is the actual description of an archetype's actual nature... an unconscious nature.

Holy Freud Batman! VOHL just said a mouthful.

Now if only we could have hooked ol' Carl up with Agent Hai To and got him into a 12-step program. :lol

[Guest Kwok Choi]

Yueh Hua in Killer Clans is character development

Yueh Hua in The Sentimental Swordsman is character development

Yueh Hua in Black Lizard is character development

Yueh Hua in The Lizard is character development

Remo you are spot on.

Oh I forgot ! Kuo Chue's dialogue in Kid.......shows depth of character allowing the audience to understand who the man is behind the drunken image rather than character development as the character is one dimensional.

[Guest vengeanceofhumanlanterns]

Kuo Chue's dialogue in Kid.......shows depth of character allowing the audience to understand who the man is behind the drunken image rather than character development as the character is one dimensional.

Wouldn't that be two dimensional? :b

[Guest Kwok Choi]

No you are getting confused.It is one dimensional.The character shows depth but it doesn't really change much.It doesn't develop enough from the start of the movie till the end.

[Guest venomchamber]

a letdown?

Its a kung-fu movie...a revised remake of Chang's earlier effort HAVE SWORD WILL TRAVEL made to showcase his newest group of young cohorts in their third film together.

What were you expecting? (I'm surprised after all this time of easy access and availability there are still fans who haven't seen this film yet and are only now seeing it for the first time in 2007!)

character development?

This story about greed among warring gangsters leaves no time for further character development.

It isn't a film based upon a wu-xia novel. (*Which are usually chock full of character development...so much that many of Chu Yuan's tend to get bashed as being dull and talky!)

Remember, Chang was known as 'The KING OF ACTION' in his day.

You want Shaw action...watch a Chang Cheh movie like Golden Arm!

You want other action...seek Ocean Shores video, or Golden Harvest.

You want character development...watch a Chu Yuan wu-xia epic or any of the other 400 dramas made by Shaws!

I personally like it more than Samo Hung's films, although I like those too. Golden Arm (as well as many of Chang's films) came before many of Samo's were made.

I just prefer the costume-era action films made by Chang over anything else. I find them appealing and entertaining.

Keep in mind this is a Shaw Brothers forum and this was one of the best the Shaws had to offer and kept the 'venoms' together for another dozen films or so, for better or worse.

[Guest remo]

a letdown?

I could see it being a bit of a letdown, especially if you're coming to it after Five Deadly Venoms. As alluded to earlier in the thread, "Brass Head" and "Iron Robe" don't have quite the same ring to them as "The Snake" and "The Centipede." But like I said, I enjoyed it.

[Guest rindge]

Wow, don't read the forum for several days and all hell breaks out.

I guess I'll throw in my two cents.

With regards to KWTGA - not one of my favorite films. Actually I disliked this venom film completely. It has been years since I saw the film, but it never resonated with me as a kid and I doubt it will resonate with me as an adult. I believe the thing that threw me off about this film was the story being all over the place. I do remember sharing my thoughts with friends over the years and they all thought I was crazy because they loved this film - short axe and long axe, etc. To each their own, but I do think the film is overrated - but I know I am in the minority on this.

I do think that folks on this board love the venoms(I am a fan), but at times react quite negatively when someone critiques them. I have actually resisted critiquing them in the past because I assumed the comments would be just like it is in this post.

I am also in the minority on Ten tigers - one of my favorite films. You know what? I never really considered it a venoms films. When you throw in Ti LUng, Fu Sheng , and Wang LUng Wei, that (for me) moves the film out of the classic Venom's film characterization. I don't pretend to have all of the venoms films memorized, but I don't recall too many venoms films that had such an all star cast featuring people like Ti Lung and Fu sheng. For that reason I never considered the film a venoms film. I'm also a big ti lung fan and that may color my positive view on this film.

As it relates to Sammo vs the venoms - someone hit the nail on the head when they said the venoms were more acrobatic than kung-fu focused. Sammo's, choreography as it relates to "what real kung fu" might look like or how it might be actually applied is truly great. I'd say Sammo's fight scenes were based on practical reality. The venoms fight scenes highlighted their ability to use top notch acrobatics in highly complex fight scenes. The choreography by Sammo and the Venoms are in different classes, yet both were phenomenal in their own right. I don't think you can compare the two styles.

[bubbabgone]

If not, maybe some might be overthinking this a tad.

[Guest BKarza]

". The choreography by Sammo and the Venoms are in different classes, yet both were phenomenal in their own right. I don't think you can compare the two styles."

Doesn't that go for everyone? LKL, the to camps mentioned, Hsu Hsia, the Yuen Clan, Tong Gaai's camp, etc. Everyone had their own style. That's the beautiful part. Otherwise there would be no difference in anything that we watched and it would all have been like the new wave era. Zero distinction.

[Guest tarim69]

I think 5 Venoms and Invincible Shaolin showed the Venoms at their best.

Some of their choreography was too flashy. Too many movements that "looked good" but werent practical in a fight, and too much acrobatics.

One of my all time favs was from Brave Archer3. The fight between Lo Meng and Fu Sheng, with the others battling around them.

Simply jawdropping awesome.

[Guest BKarza]

"Some of their choreography was too flashy. Too many movements that "looked good" but werent practical in a fight, and too much acrobatics."

Wtf!? Er, um, anyway. As far as too many acrobatics goes, you'll find that the indies had more flipping/acrobatics used than any of the Shaw flicks. They would do acrobatics/use doubles just to. The Yuen Clan, etc. Meng Yuen Wen did all of his impressive acrobatic stuff in the indies. Not much at all with Shaw. As a company, they didn't really get down like that.

The Venoms didn't even do anything high end acrobatic wise. They incorporated some trampoline stuff and front flips and such. They incorporated their moves within a take as opposed to acrobatics just for a take, like the indies.(BA3, SSwRB, MA, LotF, IS, BA4) The ending of Crippled Avengers is their most overdone.

[Guest vengeanceofhumanlanterns]

Otherwise there would be no difference in anything that we watched and it would all have been like the new wave era. Zero distinction.

Dead on. "Just like the new wave era. Zero distinction."

That's why these films are so wonderful. You can view so many of them 'without' getting sick of them. There's the difference, right there, why then is so much better than now with this genre. With most genres actually, IMO.

[Guest rindge]

". The choreography by Sammo and the Venoms are in different classes, yet both were phenomenal in their own right. I don't think you can compare the two styles."

"Doesn't that go for everyone? LKL, the to camps mentioned, Hsu Hsia, the Yuen Clan, Tong Gaai's camp, etc. Everyone had their own style. That's the beautiful part. Otherwise there would be no difference in anything that we watched and it would all have been like the new wave era. Zero distinction."

Karza, that does not go for everyone. I would put forth that LKL and Sammo have a lot in common. LKL had a focus on trying to demonstrate kung-fu in a very authentic manner (I'm not sure about that Japanese crab style, though). I would say the same holds for Sammo - not 100%, but close enough. I really can't see much of a distinction in there styles of choreography - might that be why the fight scene in Pedicad driver between Sammo and LKL was so damn awesome? To phenomenal practitioners putting on a fantastic show of their arts that meshed so well together.

Conversely, I would put forth that Venom choreography was in class by itelf - not any better not any worse, but entirely different. You would not catch sammo or LKL doing the flips, twirling the weapons, etc - not their bag of cha.

You are more of a subject matter expert on Tong Gaii and the others than I am. So you might be correct that there styles were also different. One the matter of Sammo and LKL (and perhaps others that I can't recall), though, their styles were very similar.

Gotta run to a salsa class :-)

[Guest peringaten]

In one respect;

Sammo and ilk were moving their screen stylings ever further from their Peking opera background; using such basis as a jump off towards newer more realistically hard hitting vision.

Conversely, and in difference to, I think Chang Cheh, with the Venoms, was moving ever further towards a personal adaptation of opera, even more in scheme of tradition. He was not a conventional filmmaker; indulgent. Not just evolving from opera, but ever deeper into it. A new take. Everything fits, I think, the troupe-like nature, the staginess, the choreo, even the manner characters are dispensed, irrelevent sometimes bar the theatrics - I mean look at the way the bodyguards are dispensed at the finale of Magnificent Ruffians; they're not death blows, as I'm sure CC well knew, but such is irrelevent due to the theatrics. Chang Cheh took peking opera and turned it into a new personal vision. I mean look at his final films, through to the '90s, whereas Sammo and the like had broken away, CC was still using similar stylings, if somewhat more ineptly, and featuring authentic opera scenes, painted faces and all throughout these works.

This makes his work ever more relevent within innovative tradition... as much so as Sammo as evolving from it, CC evolving into it ever further. Opera informed much of CC's career in one respect, however, The Venoms were THE troupe, the highpoint of such particular stylistic innovation on CC's part. IMO.

[Guest rindge]

Peri... you hit the nail on the head. I would not have been able to capture what you put in words - CC and Venoms - heavenly display of Opera. Your post put it together for me. Thanks!!!

[Guest venomsfreak]

The ending of Crippled Avengers is their most overdone

I agree. I love the Venoms, but I always felt that last scene was just too long. There are parts of it where they aren't even fighting each other just jumping through hoops and doing flips.

[Guest vengeanceofhumanlanterns]

No you are getting confused.It is one dimensional.The character shows depth but it doesn't really change much.It doesn't develop enough from the start of the movie till the end.

I'm not confused. Increasing the depth of a character is increasing their development as a character. To me, that is a form of character development, and probably the most important aspect of it.

[Guest Kwok Choi]

Ok lets put it this way;the depth of the character wasn't increased instead it was made known,or shown to the audience that there was more to the character than meets the eye thats why he is philosophical in places.Had he continued being philosophical from the first instance the audience noticed this depth then continued in this shade (eg like the character he played in Life Gamble - which was also one dimensional) without ever reverting to the " wacky drunken has been " for the rest of the movie (Kid With The Golden Arms) then the depth would have increased and the character developed further making it two dimensional.

I don't think Chang Cheh was that interested in fleshing out these characters too much other than the occasional hint to their significance in the plot.The emphasis I believe in this film (Kid With The Golden Arms) is more on the martial arts than character development otherwise doing justice to developing the characters will make the film too long.Pulp Fiction for example or the Kill Bill films.

[Guest oldeschool17]

you people are putting way too much thought into this movie. Who in here watched if to for the fights and fake blood?:lol

[Guest Tosh]

you people are putting way too much thought into this movie.

Yeah c'mon, brass head doesn't need any characterization, it's all ready there. I loved this movie when I saw it years ago and I love it now.