Kid with the golden arm... A big let down

[Guest peringaten]

jadefaced, did you get or consider Magnificent Ruffians? Best of the lot by a margin imo.

Although different to the above somewhat; Kid With The Golden Arm was nice, but not that nice.

[Guest VenomsFan]

I recommend watching the VenomsFIlms in the order they were released. It may help give you a fresh look at how their choreography and chemistry evolved during their films together.

View the Venoms Documentary online here to see what I mean.

[Guest venomchamber]

I have bought Masked Avengers and like it. But Life Gamble was not so good.

I would recommend both of 'em, but since you already enjoyed MASKED AVENGERS, of the two titles I'd guess you'd probably like HOUSE OF TRAPS more, which has the same cast and pulse as MA.

GOLDEN ARM is more along the speed and appearance of LIFE GAMBLE.

But still, if you liked either 5 VENOMS or CRIPPLED AVENGERS then you should like KWTGA as well!

with sincerest regards...

[Guest avenging eagle]

Character development is a tough thing...eventhough the players in TKWTGA were so so. Not all films can't be like 7 Man Army. Now that's a great flick. Venom flicks were made to be entertaining...

[Guest Iron Boat]

I think most people feel obligated to say they like Venoms films, the venoms are a lot of peoples introduction to Kung Fu films and Shaws in general. But I agree that most of their films are not to my taste. Kid With the Golden Arm is one of their weakest films imo, The sets, the plot, the acting, are all big letdowns to me. Basically, 5 Deadly Venoms, Crippled Avengers, Shaolin Rescuers, Chinatown Kid, is their best work, everything else is kind of like unfocused chop socky.

[Guest teako170]

everything else is kind of like unfocused chop socky.

W-w-w-hatt???? 8o 8o

**gasp**

**cough**

**gasp**

:x

[Guest oldeschool17]

I think most people feel obligated to say they like Venoms films, the venoms are a lot of peoples introduction to Kung Fu films and Shaws in general.

the same thing can be said about Fu Sheng, Ti Lung, David Chaing, Lo Lieh, Gordon Liu, Lau Kar Leung, Chen Kuan Tai, Ku Feng, Wang Lun Wei, Chi Kuan Chun, and Jimmy Wang Yu amongst others.

[Guest BKarza]

"Basically, 5 Deadly Venoms, Crippled Avengers, Shaolin Rescuers, Chinatown Kid, is their best work, everything else is kind of like unfocused chop socky"

Shaolin Rescuers is part of their best work? What isn't unfocused chop socky aboot that movie?

[bubbabgone]

WTF is going on here?

Doesn't anyone like anything?

If you don't like most of what's been listed on these pages, what DO you people like?

These ARE martial arts films.

Geezuz.

[Guest remo]

W-w-w-hatt???? 8o 8o

**gasp**

**cough**

**gasp**

:x

There are a decent amount of Venoms flicks that I've yet to see (like Ruffians, Masked Avengers, Daredevils, etc), but I somewhat agree.

I've been taking a break from the Brothers Shaw to catch up on Sammo Hung classics like Odd Couple, Knockabout and Warriors Two. While I will always love Kuo Chi and friends, the choreography in Sammo's best films is simply light years beyond most Venoms films I've seen.

I do like Golden Arm though, much more than Life Gamble.

[Guest morgoth]

KWTGA isn't a great movie or anythign, but I thought it was a ton of fun. I watch kung fu movies for the fights so if you watch it for the story KWTGA may bore you.

[Guest mr HKmovie]

The fight scenes in KWTGA are better than the fight scenes in any of the other films mentioned in this thread, including the Sammo films. But different aqe groups enjoy different styles of choreography. People who are watching Venoms films for the first time in 2007 aren't going to enjoy them as much as those of us who were there when the movies were first released.

[Guest stormybman]

The Venoms' films were like a sub-genre all to themselves.

Some here are really coming across as Venom bashing, which really isn't cool. All these films have artists, choreograhers, actors, directors, and sets that have at one time or another sucked, however, we all plopped down our $$ to view them time and again.

The great thing about Kung Fu films is that like Westerns, most of the time they can exist in a no place, anywhere state,

and all you need is one guy showing up with a sign reading:

"Corrector of bad Kung Fu.", and it's on! Equivalent to the silent gunman arriving in town, and you know in the first 10 mins. he's gonna blow someone's head off.

The Venoms didn't make the worst of Kung Fu films, however,

they did make some of the best. Not everyone from this genre

can say that.

"Whenever you're ready, I'll take on any Japanese here."

[Guest vengeanceofhumanlanterns]

Thank you stormybman. The ridiculous previous remarks 'aboot' any of the Venom's films (and some are coming from people who should know better if it were'nt for a bit too much self-satisfied arrogance) are IMO viewers observing these films a bit out of context to their intended presentation. That's right KWTGA's story isn't much. but Kuo Chui's characters confession to the lady who befriends him "a good woman is the only thing that's a better friend than good wine" displays depth of character development between these characters. Wai Pei's arrogance finally pushes his woman away from him toward the more sensible Kuo Chui's character. This film makes moral and ethical statements throughout as well. All of the Venom's films have their intended and appropriate strong points. Anyone who mindlessly puts down every aspect of any Venom's film is being just that, mindless with their observation of what they're viewing.

Lastly, there is no Sammo Hung film that can even touch the 'classic qualities' of any Venom's film.

[Guest remo]

I enjoy a lot of their movies, and I think Five Deadly Venoms will always be my sentimental favorite martial arts film (so far Golden Arm is probably my second favorite Venoms flick).

But I was pretty suprised to see how my opinions of Life Gamble differed from everyone elses. It felt very mediocre to me -- frankly I think a lot of the love comes from the fact that it was simply a rare early Venoms film that few had seen. I enjoyed House of Traps significantly more, but it felt like a bit of a letdown as well. However I think that can be attributed to the insane build up it's gotten over the years... no film could live up to that sort of hype.

That's right KWTGA's story isn't much.

I would say that most kung fu stories are pretty basic and formulaic when you get down to it: person A takes revenge on person B because person B did C, etc. But that's not really why we watch, is it?

but Kuo Chui's characters confession to the lady who befriends him "a good woman is the only thing that's a better friend than good wine" displays depth of character development between these characters. Wai Pei's arrogance finally pushes his woman away from him toward the more sensible Kuo Chui's character. This film makes moral and ethical statements throughout as well.

I'm not sure that any of this really qualifies as character development -- none of the characters significantly change over the course of the movie. A throw away line about a man needing a good woman is about as cliched as it gets.

Anyone who mindlessly puts down every aspect of any Venom's film is being just that, mindless with their observation of what they're viewing.

Hmmm, I think I agree with Iron Boat -- the Venoms have clearly become a sacred cow if people must resort to personal attacks when their opinion is challenged.

Lastly, there is no Sammo Hung film that can even touch the 'classic qualities' of any Venom's film.

So every Venoms film is better than every Sammo movie? Like I said, sacred cow. After viewing films like Odd Couple and Knockabout, my personal feeling is that the Venoms films focus a bit too much on measured, precision acrobatics. There's nothing especially wrong with that, it's down to personal taste. But if you watch kung fu films for the fighting, some of Sammo's best films feature a pretty frenetic style of fight choreography that makes even the nimble Venoms look rather tame by comparison.

[Guest tarim69]

Gotta say Ive always loved the part when he chops up the sword with his bare hands.

That was included in the original commercial I saw for the film on kung fu theater and I thought it was the coolest thing ever.

I immediately set the VCR to tape it that upcoming saturday.

[Guest oldeschool17]

Quote: but Kuo Chui's characters confession to the lady who befriends him "a good woman is the only thing that's a better friend than good wine" displays depth of character development between these characters. Wai Pei's arrogance finally pushes his woman away from him toward the more sensible Kuo Chui's character. This film makes moral and ethical statements throughout as well.

I'm not sure that any of this really qualifies as character development -- none of the characters significantly change over the course of the movie. A throw away line about a man needing a good woman is about as cliched as it gets.

I will have to agree with this. One small scene/sentence doesnt encapsulate(spelling?) character depth. Thats practically the opposite of it.

people giving criticisms of the venoms is the same of people that criticise everybody else. I wouldnt take it so personally for everybody has their own opinions, although some that we dont all agree on. I think if you guys wanna have a thread with no criticisms entitle it: Venoms Film_____Appreciation Thread.

[Guest teako170]

[Guest VonHumboldtFleischer]

I agree with the above two posts. Having something happen between characters isn't necessarily character development, particularly when it's something that shapes the plot anyway by re-defining allegiances.

Having said that, I think the relative lack of character development in KWTGA is a fairly small flaw in what is still a thoroughly entertaining movie.

[Guest Iron Boat]

You know cool characters are staples of Kung Fu Films but I think Kid with the Golden Arm just went to the area of the ridiculous. Short Axe Long Axe, Iron Fan, Silver Spear,Golden Arm, Brass Head, etc... it was just stupid. The venom characters were cool the Golden Arm characters are silly and childish.

[Guest vengeanceofhumanlanterns]

Firstly, character development is when two or more characters in the story develop a relationship of sorts (enmity, trust, love, hate, distrust, fear, etc.) following an initial knowledge or encounter with one another. Sometimes these relations grow into tangible, identifiable scenarios, sometimes they go nowhere. The fact is Venom's films are basically character studies (most films intend to do just this, whether they succeed or not is a whole other matter.). The stories develop around the characters. Anyone who dosen't realize, that this was more important to Chang Cheh than even the plot, isn't grasping the chemistry behind the Venom's and their films. If a given viewer dosen't relate with any of the Venom's or their films that's understandable, but to say they possess no character or screen presence stretches beyond the reasons for their success. Each of the Venom's had tons of character in their own individual right, that's why they were so popular, and the interplay between them and their fellows was their character development (there is sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on the Venom's film). Just like Ti Lung, David Chiang, Chang Yi, Lo Lieh, Yueh Hua, Ku Feng, etc. All of these guys possessed great screen presence (or character), therefore their roles are easier for a viewer to identify with or care about. The same can most certaintly be said for the Venoms.

TKWTGA has plenty of character, there is a storyline (whether a viewer appreciates the morals or lack thereof and what results, ie: Wei Pai loses his second lease on life and his girl due to arrogance, Kuo Chui earns the respect and affection of said girl and the main gang leader Lo Mang, Lo Mang treats opponents with an understanding of honor and a code of ethics, Lung Wei will stab a girl in the back and dies a horrible death,Short Axe and Long Axe are good men deceived by a extremely vicious killer, Kuo gets the girl in the end remorseful of Lo Mang's death, yet understands it couldn't be helped, you also get the feeling he's done drinking.), The character's are what's focused on (silly names an all). The plot was the least important element in the film. The moral implications of rigid codes of honor or lack thereof in the dialogue as I'd quoted above are strewn throughout the film.

Once again homage to the sacred Venom's cow!

[Guest remo]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the Venoms films in general don't offer strong characters (albeit one dimensional) -- but strong characters don't necessarily lead to strong character development.

Firstly, character development is when two or more characters in the story develop a relationship of sorts (enmity, trust, love, hate, distrust, fear, etc.) following an initial knowledge or encounter with one another.

Character development generally refers to a growth or change in a character over the course of a film, and it doesn't necessarily have to involve more than one character.

Venoms films generally don't feature strong character development for the very reasons you mention -- they often portray strong archetypes. Lo Mang is usually the powerful fighter whose headstrong nature is his downfall, Kuo Chi the world-wise hero who can survive whatever the bad guys throws at him, Chiang Sheng often serves as comic relief, etc. If the characters were to evolve they would no longer have the capacity to fulfill their necessary roles.

*** GOLDEN ARM SPOILERS AHEAD ***

About the only character that really shows any growth in Golden Arm is, well, Golden Arm. But it's only as a result of being blinded in his fight with Hai To, so it's not like he had an epiphany of self discovery that convinced him to change his ways.

And, more to the point, the movie doesn't really allow him to change because within seconds of deciding to do so he is stabbed in the back by Wei Pai's girlfriend and the movie ends. Golden Arm himself states that this is for the best, that he couldn't stomach living the remainder of his days as a blind beggar.

So that's what we mean when we say there isn't much character development in Venoms films. While they do portray strong characters, their archetypal nature demands that they DON'T change. Why do you think Lo Mang usually dies? Because he can't adapt to his surroundings, he can't change.

[Blitz118]

The fight scenes in KWTGA are better than the fight scenes in any of the other films mentioned in this thread, including the Sammo films. But different aqe groups enjoy different styles of choreography. People who are watching Venoms films for the first time in 2007 aren't going to enjoy them as much as those of us who were there when the movies were first released.

The fight scenes in KWTGA are not better than any of the old Sammo Hung’s films.

You can love the Venoms, but I have to totally disagree. The fight scenes in KWTGA are not better than the fight scenes from Warriors Two, Odd Couple, Knockabout, The Victim, Two Toothless Tigers, Magnificent Butcher, Encounter of the Spooky Kind, Prodigal Son or even the Dead and the Deadly, which only has two brief fight scenes.

[Guest remo]

The fight scenes in KWTGA are better than the fight scenes in any of the other films mentioned in this thread, including the Sammo films. But different aqe groups enjoy different styles of choreography. People who are watching Venoms films for the first time in 2007 aren't going to enjoy them as much as those of us who were there when the movies were first released.

What does age have to do with it? Both Golden Arm and Odd Couple were released in the same year, 1979. Unless you're referring to nostalgia of course. I grew up taping Venoms films off the TV in the early 80s and will always love them -- that doesn't mean I have to bury my head in the sand when I come across a style of choreography that is arguably more skillful and entertaining.

[Guest Chinatown Kid]

It all comes down to personal preference, I just know I love the film KWTGA and it along with 5 Venoms and Invincible Shaolin are my 3 favorite and imo quintessential Venom films. Alot of people like Crippled Avengers the best and although I do like it too, I just don't like it as much as the previous 3 I mentioned. Same goes with Avenging Warriors of Shaolin and Masked Avengers in that I enjoyed them but they are not my personal favorites.

As far as Sammo films vs The Venom films, I'm a big fan of both and enjoy their different styles, they each bring their own unique flavor to the action. I do think Kuo Chui is just as talented as Sammo as a screen fighter, after all they were both Chinese Opera trained and have the skills to back it up. Instead of saying who was best, i'd rather just enjoy each for their own special talents and styles.