New Police Story (2004) or SPL (2005)?

[Iron_Leopard]

Which action movie had more impact on the dying Hong Kong Action Cinema market?

Both were big deals. Jackie's return to his main franchise and Donnies breakthrough film.

Both came out a year apart and are very violent and intense.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Iron_Leopard

[legendarycurry]

5 minutes ago, Iron_Leopard said:

Which action movie had more impact on the dying Hong Kong Action Cinema market?

Both were big deals. Jackie's return to his main franchise and Donnies breakthrough film.

Both came out a year apart and are very violent and intense.

I would say SPL 100%. I wouldn't say it was a breakthrough for Donnie Yen as much as it became a revival/re-ignition of his career. He was still actively working in Hong Kong at the time of SPL's release ( he worked several times with The Twins for example in that time period).

I'd say if it was anyone's breakthrough it was Jacky Wu's because he had tried and failed in the past to be launched as a star, and after SPL his profile was significantly raised and he eventually became the star and director of big hit movies.

Jackie had already done 4 Police Story movies at the time of New Police Story being released and it just wasn't as big of a deal as Donnie VS Sammo in a major movie.

[Iron_Leopard]

5 minutes ago, legendarycurry said:

I would say SPL 100%. I wouldn't say it was a breakthrough for Donnie Yen as much as it became a revival/re-ignition of his career. He was still actively working in Hong Kong at the time of SPL's release ( he worked several times with The Twins for example in that time period).

I'd say if it was anyone's breakthrough it was Jacky Wu's because he had tried and failed in the past to be launched as a star, and after SPL his profile was significantly raised and he eventually became the star and director of big hit movies.

Jackie had already done 4 Police Story movies at the time of New Police Story being released and it just wasn't as big of a deal as Donnie VS Sammo in a major movie.

Good points. I guess I meant Donnies breakthrough role outside of Asia. He just couldn't quite seem to join the ranks of Jackie and Jet until this time period with SPL and Ip Man.

Jacky Wu reminds me of Donnie pre SPL. Had a cult following but just couldnt break into the big time.

 

[One Armed Boxer]

'SPL' for sure if we're talking purely impact on the HK action genre. By 2005 it was all but dead, and while 'New Police Story' was solid, it didn't present anything new action wise, coasting along on the good will of seeing Jackie Chan back in a Hong Kong movie after spending most of the late 90's and early 00's in Hollywood. 

23 hours ago, Iron_Leopard said:

I guess I meant Donnies breakthrough role outside of Asia.

'SPL' didn't make much of an impact outside of Asia beyond the expected DVD releases from niche labels like Dragon Dynasty. I'd agree with @legendarycurry's point that it was a career revival for Yen, and probably those fans who'd soured to his low budget and self-directed productions in the late 90's found a reason to look forward to his work again. It was really 'Ip Man' in 2008 that broke him through internationally (he even did an overseas press tour for 'Ip Man 3'!), and while it didn't have the same impact in terms of creating a new audience of martial arts cinema fans that 'Ong Bak' did in 2003, it definitely had a further reach than the average HK action flick (I wrote about the impact of Yen's role as Ip Man here).

[Iron_Leopard]

5 hours ago, One Armed Boxer said:

'SPL' for sure if we're talking purely impact on the HK action genre. By 2005 it was all but dead, and while 'New Police Story' was solid, it didn't present anything new action wise, coasting along on the good will of seeing Jackie Chan back in a Hong Kong movie after spending most of the late 90's and early 00's in Hollywood. 

'SPL' didn't make much of an impact outside of Asia beyond the expected DVD releases from niche labels like Dragon Dynasty. I'd agree with @legendarycurry's point that it was a career revival for Yen, and probably those fans who'd soured to his low budget and self-directed productions in the late 90's found a reason to look forward to his work again. It was really 'Ip Man' in 2008 that broke him through internationally (he even did an overseas press tour for 'Ip Man 3'!), and while it didn't have the same impact in terms of creating a new audience of martial arts cinema fans that 'Ong Bak' did in 2003, it definitely had a further reach that the average HK action flick (I wrote about the impact of Yen's role as Ip Man here).

I'm halfway through your amazing Yen article and I just wanted to point out something I've said before. Tony Jaa is responsible for Yens career after 2005. Jaa and Ong Bak lit a fire in him that had never been ignited before. We would have never got SPL and Ip Man without them. Competition makes everyone better. 

[One Armed Boxer]

3 hours ago, Iron_Leopard said:

I'm halfway through your amazing Yen article and I just wanted to point out something I've said before. Tony Jaa is responsible for Yens career after 2005.

I remember it well, and I agreed with you! (You can see my reply on the next page) - 

Thanks for reading the Yen piece!

[Iron_Leopard]

33 minutes ago, One Armed Boxer said:

I remember it well, and I agreed with you! (You can see my reply on the next page) - 

Thanks for reading the Yen piece!

You've got a great memory. I knew I'd mentioned it before but couldn't tell you where or when.

Your Yen article is so good it should appear in a issue of the new Eastern Heroes magazine. 

[One Armed Boxer]

15 minutes ago, Iron_Leopard said:

Your Yen article is so good it should appear in a issue of the new Eastern Heroes magazine. 

Thanks for the kind words!

@mpm74 has me tied into a Lo Wei style Jackie Chan contract, in which if any of my work posted on cityonfire.com gets published anywhere else, there'll be a price put on my head.

[mpm74]

3 hours ago, One Armed Boxer said:

Thanks for the kind words!

@mpm74 has me tied into a Lo Wei style Jackie Chan contract, in which if any of my work posted on cityonfire.com gets published anywhere else, there'll be a price put on my head.

As far as I'm concerned, you paid your Fantasy Mission Force/Island of Fire dues, dude! It has been resolved. You can come back to Manila and say goodbye to hiding out in South Korea! 

[DiP]

On 3/24/2022 at 8:03 PM, Iron_Leopard said:

Tony Jaa is responsible for Yens career after 2005. Jaa and Ong Bak lit a fire in him that had never been ignited before. We would have never got SPL and Ip Man without them. Competition makes everyone better. 

Pretty bold of a statement. Opportunity comes first and foremost.

Yen has busted his ass off since the mid 90s going independent and trying to push the limits of action movies by realizing many of his own ideas onscreen. However, the late 90s was not so kind to martial arts action movies in Hong Kong so he had to go low-budget. When his stock took a major nosedive, he went overseas to try his luck (which gave him merits, and a good rep). Yen's reemergence as a contributor of recent Hong Kong action cinema has more to do with the people in his inner circle -- that brought him back to working in the Hong Kong industry receiving credible merits enough to continue working on more projects -- than being solely inspired to compete with the likes of Thailand (yes, he admitted that it bothered him that Thailand had taken over the thrown from Hong Kong). Even without Thailand's comeuppance in action movies at the time, I believe Yen would still have been successful in doing the stuff he has done in the past 15 years, and still is doing to this day.

Edited November 5, 2022 by DiP

[Iron_Leopard]

8 hours ago, DiP said:

Pretty bold of a statement. Opportunity comes first and foremost.

Yen has busted his ass off since then the mid 90s going independent trying to push the limits of action movies realizing many of his ideas onscreen. However, the late 90s was not so kind too martial arts action movies in Hong Kong so he had to go low-budget. When his stock took a major nosedive, he went overseas to try his luck (which again gave him merits, and a good rep). Yen's reemergence as a contributor of recent Hong Kong action cinema has more to do with the people in his inner circle -- that brought him back to working in the Hong Kong industry receiving credible merits enough to continue working on more projects -- than being solely inspired to compete with the likes of Thailand (yes, he admitted that it bothered him that Thailand had taken over the thrown from Hong Kong). Even without Thailand's comeuppance in action movies at the time, I believe Yen would still have been successful in doing the stuff he has done in the past 15 years, and still is doing to this day.

But without the threat of Jaa wiping Hong Kong completely off the map would Yen have taken his films to the next level? Or would he have stayed in his comfort zone of doing just enough to get by like everyone else was doing because there was no incentive to push beyond?

Like others mentioned New Police Story was good but it didn't break any new ground.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Iron_Leopard

[DiP]

14 hours ago, Iron_Leopard said:

But without the threat of Jaa wiping Hong Kong completely off the map would Yen have taken his films to the next level? Or would he have stayed in his comfort zone of doing just enough to get by like everyone else was doing because there was no incentive to push beyond?

You're missing the whole point. Your statement obviously implies that Donnie Yen's career was at the hands of Tony Jaa and that Yen wouldn't have been as successful without Jaa. From a career point-of-view, this is absolutely an absurd thing to say. There are people far more important to Yen and his career.

First off, Yen's career in Hong Kong in the late 90s was practically dead but got his first shot at Hollywood thanks to Harvey Weinstein (who knew of Yen's rep as an action talent and overall track record). That led to Blade 2, Shanghai Knights, and more Hollywood offers that were rejected by him. Secondly, Yen got his second chance of re-establishing himself in Hong Kong thanks to Albert Yeung through Bey Logan, and that led to Yen earning credibility as action director for his work on The Twins Effect. The overall career move given to him at this point meant making bigger movies with bigger budgets with the biggest names in the Hong Kong industry, and taking the opportunities to show what could be done with your talents on-and offscreen.

And speaking of which, let's talk about Yen's progression in action choreography with SPL. That movie means alot to his career due to the fact that it showcased MMA/grappling in ways that were not done before, and that Yen had overall good acting potential. But was the MMA/grappling concept a direct response to Jaa and Thailand's fresh way of showcasing Muay Thai onscreen? Hell no! Yen was already doing that stuff two years earlier with The Twins Effect, and even as early as In the Line of Duty 4 (the rooftop fight scene with Michael Woods). Yen saw something in grappling that could be tweaked with to be made good-looking onscreen. So he did research through training and knowledge from close friends to gain a good understanding as to how you could shoot groundfighting onscreen and make it interesting. And SPL was that project, that calling card. But all this wouldn't have happened if it weren't for the people that knew he was far too talented to be wasted for nothing.

Moral of the story: Being inspired by someone to compete doesn't substitute your own career when it has already been established with the help of others, and that it doesn't affect your decisions to do better when you already have your own ideas (from years of movie-watching and real-life experiences) to realize that could speak volumes of being more appreciated than imagined.

[Iron_Leopard]

2 hours ago, DiP said:

You're missing the whole point. Your statement obviously implies that Donnie Yen's career was at the hands of Tony Jaa and that Yen wouldn't have been as successful without Jaa. From a career point-of-view, this is absolutely an absurd thing to say. There are people far more important to Yen and his career.

First off, Yen's career in Hong Kong in the late 90s was practically dead but got his first shot at Hollywood thanks to Harvey Weinstein (who knew of Yen's rep as an action talent and overall track record). That led to Blade 2, Shanghai Knights, and more Hollywood offers that were rejected by him. Secondly, Yen got his second chance of re-establishing himself in Hong Kong thanks to Albert Yeung through Bey Logan, and that led to Yen earning credibility as action director for his work on The Twins Effect. The overall career move given to him at this point meant making bigger movies with bigger budgets with the biggest names in the Hong Kong industry, and taking the opportunities to show what could be done with your talents on-and offscreen.

And speaking of which, let's talk about Yen's progression in action choreography with SPL. That movie means alot to his career due to the fact that it showcased MMA/grappling in ways that were not done before, and that Yen had overall good acting potential. But was the MMA/grappling concept a direct response to Jaa and Thailand's fresh way of showcasing Muay Thai onscreen? Hell no! Yen was already doing that stuff two years earlier with The Twins Effect, and even as early as In the Line of Duty 4 (the rooftop fight scene with Michael Woods). Yen saw something in grappling that could be tweaked with to be made good-looking onscreen. So he did research through training and knowledge from close friends to gain a good understanding as to how you could shoot groundfighting onscreen and make it interesting. And SPL was that project, that calling card. But all this wouldn't have happened if it weren't for the people that knew he was far too talented to be wasted for nothing.

Moral of the story: Being inspired by someone to compete doesn't substitute your own career when it has already been established with the help of others, and that it doesn't affect your decisions to do better when you already have your own ideas (from years of movie-watching and real-life experiences) to realize that could speak volumes of being more appreciated than imagined.

You know more about Yen than I do but I don't see SPL happening when it did and exactly how it did without Ong Bak. You feel otherwise. But we'll never know for sure.

[DiP]

Yen is always striving to discover and improve anything in action choreography due to his inquiring and open mind. You may be right on SPL not happening the way it did and when it did but the probability of how he could do things wouldn't be that much of a difference anyway, considering what he has done outside of MMA and wing chun onscreen. Artists are always inspired by everything in their conscience, so regardless of fate, they will be able to create and accomplish as long as there are chances given to them and investments on their doings. Yen doesn't owe anyone his career except his mentor, and those that invested on his great talents.

[One Armed Boxer]

One thing we can all agree on is that, after years of fans waiting for Jaa and Yen to be in a movie together, 'xXx: Return of Xander Cage' didn't really live up to expectations.