Sammo Hung's Missed Opportunity!

[Guest JOSEPH KUBY]

I'm not sure if m/any of you are aware of this but Sammo was originally going to be the action director for the Star Wars prequels!:eek

Here's what Mike Leeder had to say about it....

"I interviewed Sammo about his involvement in the Star Wars prequels, and you should be able to find the interview in a back issue of Impact or the offical Sammo website..where he said he was asked about it by someone from lucasfilm, said he was interested and never heard anymore...a pity!"

Basically what happened was that George had seen films featuring Sammo's knowledge of swordplay like The Odd Couple and Moon Warriors, and was impressed with Sammo's versatility as seen in films like On the Run.

Reportedly, Lucas had been impressed not only by the complexity yet straight-forwardness of his action prowess but was impressed by Hung's directorial and cinematographic prowess behind the scenes - a veritable jack-of-all trades.

It always frustrates me to think that Sammo Hung (George's first choice as action director) was turned down for Nick Gillard.>: Lucas turning down Sammo for Nick is like if the Wachowski brothers were to turn down Yuen Woo Ping for someone like Pat Johnson, Jeff Imada, Jeff Pruitt or Vic Armstrong!:evil

Whilst Nick is, at best, a very good action director he's not an excellent one. To give you a better idea of how significant this is, this is my interpretation of a quality meter: terrible, bad, average, above average, good, very good, great and excellent/fantastic/brilliant/outstanding.

Even though a lot of people criticize Jar Jar Binks as being the worst thing George Lucas ever did in regards to the Star Wars franchise, I beg to differ as I personally think that not hiring Sammo Hung to be the action director for the Star Wars prequels was the most misguided decision George ever made.:x (I don't know about you guys but, for me, having Sammo & co. choreograph magnificent fights for a Star Wars movie would redeem such a loathed movie character)

I remember having a heated debate with my Caucasian martial arts teacher (who hasn't really seen Sammo's work) about this after when Episode III came out in cinemas. He actually said that Nick Gillard's choreography was excellent (as in the best quality fights ever done on screen) and he tried backing up what he was saying by claiming that he's seen his "fair share of martial arts films" and citing some of the releases of Hong Kong Legends as one of them (though he admitted he never saw any of Sammo's movies but still thought Sammo couldn't do any better - primarily on the basis of Martial Law).:rolleyes

Sammo is the master of fighting systems, he knows everything or at least more than Nick Gillard. Whilst Nick Gillard is an expert at Kendo and fencing, Sammo knows more about them than Nick and has the higher hand because he's an expert on Chinese swordfighting systems. Sammo has proven to have amassed an exceedingly high level of knowledge on the art of swordfighting as evident on the films he's worked on. He's a master at emulating and imitating any form of Martial Arts, which in some way does make him a master of all forms (artistically speaking).:hat

Prior to Episode I, Nick didn't have as much experience as Sammo when it came to stunt co-ordination/fight choreography (especially in the realm of on-screen sword fighting).|I

Heck, Yuen Woo Ping, Lau Kar Leung, Ching Siu Tung and even Jackie Chan could have come up with something better than what Nick Gillard did (i.e. if they were to work in their own groups - I don't mean if they worked on it altogether). Jackie can do serious fights if he wants to and is great with swords so I don't think the fights would have been typical of his style (i.e. lots of slapstick and fights which resemble circus routines than actual fighting).:smokin

If Sammo Hung had worked on Episode I back in 1997 with his regular collaborators Bill Yuen Biao, Billy Chan Wui Ngai and Lam Ching Ying, the fight scenes would have completely blown away anything Gillard ever achieved - particularly in the two on one showdown where Obi Wan Kenobi and Qui-Gon Jinn take on Darth Maul.:|

Even with Lam Ching Ying passing away, Sammo (with Bill & Billy) would still have choreographed fight scenes more than twice the quality of Nick Gillard's sub-par offerings whether it be the Count Dooku vs. Yoda duel in Episode II or any of the following duels in Episode III: the battle between Obi Wan & General Grievous, Palpatine vs. Windu & the three Jedis or the penultimate duel between Obi Wan and Anakin Skywalker.8)

I just think it's a bleeding shame! It would have made for perfect media/film analysis....two famous Chinese action directors working on the fight scenes for two Sci Fi trilogies. The Star Wars prequels would have made far more money than what they did make! Sammo's film career would have been astonishingly revived, allowing him to work on a multitude of projects and become possibly more famous than Yuen Woo Ping!

The only thing close to a career comeback for Sammo in the year of 1997 was working with Jet Li in Once Upon a Time in China & America and Jackie Chan in Mr. Nice Guy, but to tell you the truth those films don't make up for this loss! Yeah, there's Sha Po Lang as far as on-screen fighting is concerned but if Sammo worked on Star Wars we could have seen an earlier film project with Sammo as an actor, perhaps collaborating with Biao & Chan and making a far better movie than what they could make now!:\

Besides Martial Law, the only thing close to choreographing action for an American film was the Miramax comedy A View from the Top where he was assistant stunt co-ordinator - choreographing a fight between Gwyneth Paltrow and Christina Applegate. Medallion doesn't really count as it's really an English language Hong Kong financed production.

Sammo's closest attempt at recapturing his past glories was by being one of the fight choreographers for Kung Fu Hustle, but even then an unfair amount of credit was given to Yuen Woo Ping when in fact Sammo was the one who choreographed the fight between the three martial arts masters and the two musicians as well as the finale involving Stephen Chow and the hundred or so men in black suits. It could be argued the best fight scenes in the film are the ones courtesy of Sammo. To add insult to injury, Yuen Woo Ping was given the award for best action design rather than it being shared with Sammo. Sammo might not have been the one working on the most scenes but the ones he did work on did have a lot of action in them and the quality was considerably high (like how critics describe Sammo's work in his 80s movies).0]

[Guest sammofan]

I thought Sammo on Kung Fu Hustle only did the first fight where the 3 masters first reveal themselves. I think that's what Stephen Chow says on the dvd extras.

[Guest kungfusamurai]

Even so, I don't think it would have made me like the films any more. Plus, a lot of the action was CGI'd anyway, so it's hard to tell if Sammo really would have been able to sink his teeth into his role, especially with Lucas' power-hungry approach to film making.

KFS

[Guest JOSEPH KUBY]

Even Yuen Woo Ping's talent managed to shine through his fights in the Matrix movies!

In regards to Star Wars, most of the CG in question comes from the surroundings and the lightsabers themselves (and the use of force/energy blasts) so I'm sure Sammo would still have choreographed fight scenes filled with wonderful swordplay!

On the IMDB, it says Sammo also choreographed the finale for Kung Fu Hustle. I do remember a long time ago on the Monkey Peaches site there was pictures depicting Sammo working on the finale.

[Guest DragonMa55]

I think Nick Gillard did an excellent job to be honest. From what I recollect, Sammo chose to leave after creative differences with Chow, it was Chow's film so he was in the position of crediting or not crediting Hung with the work he did on the film.

[Guest kabuki5678]

I agree with JOSEPH KUBY on this one. When I read the novels and got to the fight scenes, each character has a unique style to it. Nick Gillard is good I give him that, but the details in the books make him look like he didn't even try to match each characters style.

Count Dooku (Form II): This style is based on the Spanish style of fencing, "La Verdadera Destreza," which is based on classical philosophy and mathematics including the works of Aristotle, Euclid, and Pythagoras. Makashi users are elegant, precise, calm, confident, even arrogant. Form II users are supremely confident in their chances for victory, and often look relaxed when they are fighting, its almost like they are dancing.

Obi Wan (Form III): This technique exposes as little body target zone open areas as is possible, making a well-trained practitioner nearly invincible. It borrows movements from Kendo, Wushu and Fencing, making it a very beautiful and graceful form.

Yoda, Darth Sidoius, Qui Gon (Form IV): Yoda was acknowledged as the greatest master of Ataru. He used it in almost all of his battles, and the style made him a virtually unstoppable whirlwind of destruction despite his small size and advanced age. Qui-Gon Jinn was also a master of this form. Kenobi was also very advanced in Ataru, but temporarily abandoned it in favor of Soresu because he felt that his master's death demonstrated a fatal flaw in Ataru's defensive capabilities. Nevertheless, Obi-Wan applied Ataru acrobatics to face Dooku and Anakin (the latter after he turned to the dark side as Darth Vader) in Revenge of the Sith.

Anakin Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (Form V): Embodying the perfection of the idea of counterattack, Form V maintains its existence through having sufficient defensive skills, as derived from Form III, but channeling defense into offense. The example is commonly used that while Form III combatants effortlessly deflect laser bolts, Form V practitioners excel at redirecting the laser bolt toward the opponent. This simultaneously defends the user and efficiently injures the opponent. Also, it utilizes Form II's parries, allowing the user to parry the attempted attack, and counter it.

Mace Windu, Darth Maul (Form VII): Intrepid, somewhat direct movements are used in combination with very advanced techniques involving Force-powered jumps and motions. Form VII does not appear as fancy as Form IV, but the technical details of it use very open movements resulting in a very unpredictable battle style. The staccato swings and flow of the form make it seem as if the attacks are not linked—but in reality, it is merely confusing the opponent. This style is very similar to the martial art of ninjutsu. The sword techniques of this art are very practical, using "battlefield" philosophy; kill, move on.

When you actually read the differences in each style you can envision how each style is pitted against each other. Yet when we saw

Anakin & Obi Wan vs Count Dooku

Obi Wan Vs General Grievous

Darth Sidious Vs. Mace Windu

We saw no change in styles and movements, but just because they moved fast on screen Nick Gillard thought he did these fighting styles justice but he failed to do so. Sammo is a master director when it comes not only fight choreography but camera work and positioning. Plus with Sammo at the helm he would have prefered no body doubling and no CGI added effects because he delivers realistic fight scenes.

[Guest marshmellowlane]

in kung fu hustle sammo only choreagraphed the 3 masters fight nothing else..stephen chow mentions this on the dvd..

[Guest Chen Zhen]

meh, sammos involvement in the star wars movies wouldnt have made me enjoy them anymore. even if corey yuen or yuen woo ping worked on them, i dont think i would enjoy them very much more. i agree with kfs, despite sammo's efforts, it would still be a cgi crapfest all over the place. and to be fair to Nick, i dont think its fair making that kind of comparison...cuz essentially all we're really doing is comparing American martial arts to HK martial arts, and as we all know, its no contest. the swordfights in episode 3 were decent...i cant say they were bad...but there very long (that last swordfight was clocked at 12 minutes long!), and not creative enuff...i was hoping it would end after like 5 minutes.

also, i dont think that Sammo's chinese swordplay would work in a star wars film. Yuen Woo Ping and Corey Yuen are my 2 favourite choreographers today, but i think hiring even them would be a mistake. i mean, yeah it may look cool and all, but u gotta remember that these guys are not chinese, or ppl trained in chinese martial arts...the look and feel of the fights have to reflect the feel of star wars, and i dont kno about u, but seeing intense Wu Tang swordplay in a star wars film would just be weird if u ask me..especially after the other 4 or so star wars films..kind of the same way that for Blade 2, they didnt use very much of Donnie Yen's choreography cuz it doesnt really suit Wesley Snipes' character...they cant have blade tryin to look like Jet Li. another example is seeing Zorro, who is known as a fencer, all of sudden doing wushu swordplay...it just wouldnt work IMO.

i dont think that star wars wouldve revived sammo's film career...firstly, i dont think sammo would have 1/10 of the directorial control of the fights that he does in HK..seeing how its a big hollywood blockbuster and all. secondly, lets face it. as much as i respect sammo and ive got nothing but love for his older stuff...he hasnt done anything really good in years. OUATIC6 was a huge disappointment for me at least. all his work in recent years has been average at best IMO. i dont want to say hes lost it...but...

in fact, Yuen Woo Ping and Corey Yuen are the only 2 oldskool choreographers i can think of who's work still impresses me..pretty much everyone else has been on a slump IMO, such as LKL.

[Guest actionjackson]

Sammo Hung is my all time favourite fight choreographer. When it comes to action direction, only Jackie Chan and Yuen Woo ping deserve to be mentioned in the same breath.

But given his recent track record, I can't say that I'm particularly sad to hear how he lost out on the Star Wars gig. To be sure, he would of supplied better fights than Nick whats-his-name but you only have to look at other Sammo-films of that era to see how uninspired his choreography was: Mr Nice Guy, OUATIC6 and Don't Give A Damn.

I still think he's got it and I'm encouraged to hear that he did in fact do a lot of the choreography on Kung Fu Hustle (the fights you mentioned happen to be my favourites!). Also check out the awesome moves Chan pulls on the badguys in the boat scene of The Medallion (a damn shame that it is filmed at night) -- wicked!

[Guest JOSEPH KUBY]

I appreciate all the feedback!

Very interesting opinions!

Chen, the thing about Sammo Hung as a fight choreographer is that he knows more than just Chinese martial arts and he knows more about fighting in general so I don't think the fight scenes would have been Ewan & co. punching & kicking all over the place and doing stuff you'd associate with a Ching Siu Tung wire-fu spectacle! (i.e. people hopping all over the place, spinning around constantly and fighting as if they were performing ballet:lol :rollin ).

I'm sure Sammo would have had the good taste & sense to realize that Star Wars wasn't going to be a Chinese martial arts swordplay movie set in space. Sammo's quality as choreographer is such that he wouldn't need to rely on having people like Liam and Sam kick like they were John Liu or Tan Tao Liang! (minus Ray Park of course, but even then Sammo would have realized there wouldn't be much room for kicking due to the weapons involved)

If George had hired him, I'm sure he would have given Sammo the guidelines as to how the fight scenes would look and wouldn't look (i.e. no chop socky-esque movements and camera angles) so we wouldn't have seen movements that would look completely inconsistent and abstract for a Star Wars movie.

Another thing about Sammo is that (when working under another director) he knows how to film the action to suit the directorial style of the director who's working on the film. In some ways Sammo (as a fight choreographer) reflects what Michael Caine said about acting. What Michael said was that a movie star tries to change the script to suit themself whereas a true actor changes himself to suit the script. With Sammo on board, he would have easily changed his style to suit the film whereas other action directors would compromise George's directorial vision for their own.

George was said to be a huge fan of Sammo (and equally admired him professionally) so its likely he would have given Sammo room to choreograph the duels as long as they met George's intentions. Besides things like editing and camera speed, Sammo would probably have had the same amount of creative input that Yuen Woo Ping was able to deliver when he worked on the Matrix trilogy. Granted, he wouldn't have had that same amount control as his Hong Kong efforts but it still would have been great (and more better than what Nick did)! It's kind of like what Sam Raimi said about the amount of control Woo had for Hard Target: "Woo at seventy percent is still going to blow away most American action directors working at one hundred percent!"

Throughout the 90's Sammo was never really given the chance to work on films like Drunken Master 2 or Fist of Legend so fans never got to see the full extent of what he could so. OUATIC 6 was a film where Hung Yan Yan was the main choreographer so that certain spark in the fights was missing, not to mention Sammo is only at his best when working with the aforementioned collaborators (though admittedly the film was cinematically poor anyway).

It's like Yuen Woo Ping, by himself he's a very good action director but is only great when he's with Yuen Cheung Yan, Yuen Shun Yi, Yuen Yat Chor and Yuen Chun Wei. Lau Kar Leung, by himself, is a very good action director but is only great when working with Lee King Chue and Hsiao Hou. Corey Yuen Kwai, by himself, is a good action director but only very good when working with Meng Hoi and Yuen Tak.

[Guest Chen Zhen]

It's like Yuen Woo Ping, by himself he's a very good action director but is only great when he's with Yuen Cheung Yan, Yuen Shun Yi, Yuen Yat Chor and Yuen Chun Wei. Lau Kar Leung, by himself, is a very good action director but is only great when working with Lee King Chue and Hsiao Hou. Corey Yuen Kwai, by himself, is a good action director but only very good when working with Meng Hoi and Yuen Tak.

well, Yuen Woo Ping has never worked by himself. its very very rare (if ever) that he does. even tho his brothers often dont get credited on many films, Yuen Cheung Yan and Yuen Shun Yi are always part of his stunt team and help out..altho, i dont kno what yuen chun wei and yuen yat choh have been doing as of late. i dont think LKL ever worked completely by himself either..im sure LKW always gave him a hand and also the forementioned individuals too..in which case one could argue he was amazing no matter who he worked with. well, i dont kno about corey's most recent work, but i cant think of any film he worked on since he started directing films (ninja in the dragons den) where he didnt work with either meng hoi or yuen tak. i suspect that both of them do work on his stunt team on his most recent films even if they dont get credit...same way that Stephen Tung Wei didnt get any credit for his choreography work on Hero, even tho he did help out Ching Siu Tung. however i could be wrong about yuen kwai.

I'm sure Sammo would have had the good taste & sense to realize that Star Wars wasn't going to be a Chinese martial arts swordplay movie set in space. Sammo's quality as choreographer is such that he wouldn't need to rely on having people like Liam and Sam kick like they were John Liu or Tan Tao Liang! (minus Ray Park of course, but even then Sammo would have realized there wouldn't be much room for kicking due to the weapons involved)

good points, and very true. aside from his actual choreography, sammo always impressed me as a filmmaker in general and knowing waht works and what doesnt work. however, the fact that the nature of star wars fighting is the way it is, i dont kno how well his choreography would shine under the circumstances, same thing if yuen kwai or woo ping worked on it..given the nature, i think that it limits the creativity of all those action directors.

Another thing about Sammo is that (when working under another director) he knows how to film the action to suit the directorial style of the director who's working on the film. In some ways Sammo (as a fight choreograpgher) reflects what Michael Caine said about acting. What Michael said was that a movie star tries to change the script to suit themself whereas a true actor changes himself to suit the script. With Sammo on board, he would have easily changed his style to suit the film whereas other action directors would compromise George's directorial vision for their own.

very true.

Throughout the 90's Sammo was never really given the chance to work on films like Drunken Master 2 or Fist of Legend so fans never got to see the full extent of what he could so. OUATIC 6 was a film where Hung Yan Yan was the main choreographer so that certain spark in the fights was missing, not to mention Sammo is only at his best when working with the aforementioned collaborators (though admittedly the film was cinematically poor anyway).

well, unlike Corey Yuen Kwai and Yuen Woo Ping, Sammo's transition from 80s kickboxing to new wave wirefu didnt go very well, the same way that Lau Kar Leung's transition from classic kung fu to 80s kickboxing didnt go well. Yuen Woo Ping and Corey Yuen handled wirefu reasonably well, which lead to more work and opportunity in more wirefu and non wire fu films, which unfortunetely didnt work out as well for sammo. admittedly, that 3 masters part of kung fu hustle was my favourite part. very impressive considering thats the only scene he choreographed...well, in general, i didnt really dig kung fu hustle. i dunno, sammo's 90s work was just average, in comparison to what jackie, woo ping and yuen kwai were doing in the 90s

i agree the fights in star wars wouldve been better..no doubt about it, but i dont kno how much better the film itself would be, and i dont kno how well it would revive his career, given the fact that the 90s hasnt been very good for sammo. but then again, Corey Yuen's work on Romeo must die and Cradle to the grave (bad movies, but with good, not great, fight scenes) seemed to give corey a big boost in his career, so i suppose its very well that sammo couldve done the same.

btw joseph, this was a very good topic!

[Guest JOSEPH KUBY]

It sure is!:hat

It would really help my appreciation of Corey's US features if I knew Tak and Hoi worked with him on films like Kiss of the Dragon! I couldn't see those 2 on any of the behind the scenes features!

I think it goes to show you how much of a slump Sammo's career was in during the 90s that his best work as fight choreographer was on Pantyhose Hero and Heaven Sword Dragon Sabre (a.k.a. Wong Jing's Kung Fu Cult Master).

Also, so was Van Damme's Knock Off:eek ........well, the uncut version as Mike Leeder once said on the DDUK (Dragon's Den UK) forum...

"Ah 'Knock Off' it could have been a hell of a contender guys, I remember back in 97 when we first got word on the project, Van Damme & Jet Li in a movie directed by Tsui Hark with Sammo handling the action.....then I got a glimpse at the original script...Hmmm Jet Li as an undercover Mainland Chinese secret agent teaming with rogue CIA agent Van Damme ok, lets read on and the worries set in, if you have a problem with the released version then imagine a film that was originally supposed to end with our heroes escaping a raging inferno by tying their jeans together to make a rope ladder, while the bad guys attempting to do the same, tumble to their deaths when their "knock off" jeans come undone...our heroes then traverse an underground tunnel leading from Macau to Hong Kong, only to emerge in the midst of a parade and shake hands with Prince Charles as he officiates the handover....Jet Li jumped ship, to be replaced by Michael Wong and the script underwent major rewrites that promised a lot, and the first half of the film does offer some great ideas, weird camerawork and some nice visual touches to present a very different Van Damme movie and view of HK. Yes, the fight scene at the end between Australian TKD and stunt maestro Mike Miller (Tickler/The Coughing Man) was supposed to be a lot longer, and they shot one hell of a hardcore intricate fight scene between the two of them, with both taking some major knocks during the shooting....the fight was not a kickfest which was a pity for Mike as the boy can kick, but a very cool intricate fight scene that was then the lead in to the Jeff Wolfe (Skar) fight scene with Jean Claude, where Jeff got to let loose with his kicks to full effect...the frustrating thing is that clips from the shooting of both of these fight scenes showing actions cut from the film were used in a "Making OF" that screened once on HKTV before its cinema release......the Blonde Fury herself Kim-Maree Penn who plays one of the CIA agents was also scheduled to let loose in a fight scene but drastic changes to the shooting script, cut certain scenes, and then gratuitous editing to the action that was shot took away the majority of the films thunder...someday hopefully someone at MDP Worldwide will be persuaded to release the lost footage and perhaps ala 'Highlander 2', we'll get a revised 'Renegade Edition' of the film that finally does it justice..."

Man, what I'd give to see that!

But yeah, Chen, this is a very good topic because the nature of it allows us to discuss about the whole crossover thing with HK action directors and I think one thing that's always puzzled me was why neither Sammo or Lau Kar Leung ever did work on more US features.

I know Lau worked on Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles III but with this whole trend of PG/martial arts action, I'm surprised no-one has hired him!:| It'd be interesting to see what would have happened had he worked on Elektra!

Also, Philip Kwok did amazing work on Hard Boiled and was one of the assistants working on Tiger Cage 2 (plus he was the original action director for Police Story 3 where he shot scenes that was said to have been better than what Tong left in), so it surprises me he's not done much!

:smokin

[Guest Chen Zhen]

wow, i dunno if i would really dig that "origianl" knock off. i dont like the idea of Jet Li and Van Damme on the same martial par.

well, Corey Yuen was one of (if not) the first HK choreographer to work on a US film (not including enter the dragon), but aside from Coreys No Retreat, No Surrender films, the trend of HK directors working on US films (in a big way) didnt become big until Mortal Kombat..Pat Johnson apparently directed the fights, but they sucked apparently, so they got Robin Shou to choreograph everything, which turned out much better...but they still gave Pat the credit. However, it wasnt until Woo Ping worked on The Matrix and Yuen Kwai working on Lethal Weapon 4 did it become the norm of using HK talent in US films.

well, no offense to Lau, but ever since classic kung fu faded, his work has been subpar at best. Sure, his work was amazing in DM2, but aside from that film, his work was very average/below par. look at DM3. i dont think hes cut out for anything which is not a period kung fu scenario.

Phillip Kwok never gets noticed on his work on Hard Boiled. that film easily ahd the best gun-fu ive ever seen, but everyone gives all the credit to John Woo for the gun fights, instead of Phil Kwok. too bad.. ihavent really seen any of his modern choreography aside from Brotherhood of the Wolf, which was impressive.

[Guest JOSEPH KUBY]

Good point!8)

I think the reason why people give credit to Woo is because of what was said in this review of The Killer.

Or more specifically....

"There has been some dispute over to exactly what John Woo directed on the movie. Some people say that the film's action (stunt) director Ching Siu Tung, not John Woo, was responsible for the film's explosive action sequences. In Hong Kong, the action director (aka action co-ordinator) often takes total control over the action scenes. Darryl Pestilence offered this response through a post on alt-asian.movies: "Ching was brought in at the behest of Tsui Hark - who did everything within his power to see that The Killer never got made. Chow Yun-Fat got the film made, going over Tsui's head and straight to the money men at Golden Princess - Film Workshop's key financier and the film's distributor. Chow had a contract with Golden Princess and he was worth more to them than Woo or Hark combined. The Killer was a project that Film Workshop [Tsui Hark's company] owned, so Woo was bound to them. It was the last film he and Tsui made together. Their relationship was shot to sh*t by their fight over creative control on A Better Tomorrow II - a film in which Tsui and Ching Siu Tung do some of the choreography on. As a part of Tsui's requirements, Woo worked with Ching on The Killer, but the majority of the action was overseen by another action director. Ching's contributions were more than likely watered-down in the editing room, conforming them to Woo's standards. Look at Ching's gunplay in utter sh*t like Wonder Seven and later with Blacksheep Affair and I rest my case. Ching was washed up after the popularity of the wire-fu genre died out and his ability to direct a gun fight is questionable. Woo blocked the shots and oversaw the editing. They [Woo's action directors] gave him the mayhem and he decided what would be overcranked, undercranked, shot medium or wide, and how much coverage would go down - not the action directors, who, like a composer, oversaw what the actual stuntmen were doing. What ended up on the screen was 90% Woo, and like a good director, he knew what to keep in the film. The silly argument falls more into the reality that the action directors brought the pyrotechnics and pratfalls into the work, but how they were photographed was strictly Woo. Look at the 'directorial' efforts of his action directors: Phillip Kuo Choi, Ching Siu Tung, and Stephen Tung Wai - and I think we've proven they had little to do with the 'style' Woo has become synonymous with."

Even still, there's no denying the level of skill required for Phil to coordinate these magnificent set-pieces!

I've always liked him as an action director (especially his work on the Venoms movies) and he rarely slips up. In some ways, he's the action directorial version of Billy Chong i.e. someone who's so talented that the only complaint would be that they didn't do more movies!

[Guest Chen Zhen]

interesting...however, does that reviewer think that John Woo couldve directed that entire film with no action director at all?

[Guest JOSEPH KUBY]

It beats me, but Neil (the reviewer) was quoting what Darryl had said so it may not necessarily have reflected Neil's opinion (he was probably just offering a suggestion to all those people who wondered what their {as in Woo and said action directors} roles entailed).

[Guest JOSEPH KUBY]

The recent slew of ads on Sky TV for the Star Wars movies have reminded me of this topic. It's got me thinking about the overall situation with Sammo's misfortune.:\

It still really annoys me that Nick was eventually chosen over Sammo.>:

What really frustrates me is that, prior to Episode I, Sammo had proven to be the far more experienced, talented and versatile fight choreographer than Nick. Sammo had proven, many times than Nick, to leave people spellbound with imaginative and intricate action sequences (take for instance what Bey said, on the HKL commentary for Encounters of the Spooky Kind, when he screened that one action sequence from said film in front of that audience of people who weren't particularly fans of action cinema).:eek

It's not just the choreography, but the camera positioning, camera speed and editing which makes Sammo superior to Nick. It's the way Sammo makes you more involved (not just visually but more emotionally engaging), which also means you get a real sense of power. What impresses me about Sammo is the way he uses the camera to emphasize actions (facially or body-in-general) e.g. close-up shots when someone gets hit, gets tripped up or falls on the ground, etc.

I mean, Sammo's the only guy who can pull off quick-cut fight scenes successfully, and actually enhance the fight scene, as can be seen in the Pedicab Driver finale.

In my opinion, Sammo is to fight choreography what Eddie Van Halen is to guitars.

To be more specific, I'd say Sammo's work in The Victim is comparable to Eddie's Eruption i.e. both blow away most of the stuff done in their respective genres given the time periods both pieces of work were constructed in.

I'd also say Ping is to fight choreography what Steve Vai is to guitars.

That is to say, whilst Ping did some great work during that era The Victim was made in (and while he is the most prolific between him and Sammo), none of it competes with Sammo's work on The Victim.

Bey said something to similar effect in issue #82 of the UK magazine "DVD Review". When giving a retrospective on Hong Kong action cinema, Bey said (on page 136) "No-one ever made traditional Kung Fu more effective on-screen - and no action star, including Chan, ever looks better than they do when directed by Sammo."

One such example is Leung Kar Yan. On the HKL DVD of Legend of a Fighter, he said the most challenging film he ever worked on was The Victim.

I think Bey was also right when he said (on the HKL audio commentary for Game of Death) that Sammo was the true successor to Bruce Lee in terms of on-screen fight choreography (and he didn't just mean imitating Bruce Lee's style of fighting in films like Enter the Fat Dragon or Skinny Tiger Fatty Dragon;) ).

Sammo has the Bruce Lee economy of shooting action sequences: nothing ever feels incessant, contrived, forced or gratuitous. A Sammo Hung action sequence advances the plot rather than stalls it. He leaves people feeling satisfied but left wanting more (kind of like what Bey said about Bruce on the Way of the Dragon HKL commentary).

Having said that, Nick's sequences are like the work's of Bruce Lee's contemporaries i.e. fights that go on and on and on, emphasis on quantity but with less quality and with an impatient desire (on the audience's behalf) for it to end if it goes past its five minute running time. Sammo's quality is such that even if you're not a fan of action or martial arts films, you can still really enjoy his fight sequences regardless of running time.

One senses that without lightsabers (or if you look beyond the fact the lightsabers are being used), Nick wouldn't be able to leave people filled with as much awe (whether it be unarmed or with real swords). The fact that Sammo can leave people spellbound without lightsabers, says something about the amount of awe he could fill people with had he choreographed the lightsaber sequences in the prequels. Nick hadn't proven to leave people spellbound without lightsabers in the same way Sammo had. Therefore there wasn't anything to suggest that Nick was a more suitable choice than Sammo in that regard.

Sammo showed more promise and guarantee of quality than Nick did prior to when Episode I got into production on 26th June 1997.

The nature of Sammo's background and the industry he works in means that he knows more about swordfighting (and of course fighting) and fight choreography in general than Nick.

What gives Sammo the extra edge is the friendship he had with Bruce Lee. Besides lending Sammo some of the books he had on fighting arts from his own personal extensive "library" of sorts, Bruce had proven to be very resourceful when they were working on Enter the Dragon together on the first scene of the film (that was ironically the last Bruce shot).

Bruce had told Sammo "If you really want to become a great martial artist and fight choreographer, you can't just study the Chinese systems or even the Oriental systems, you have to study everything - whether it be boxing, fencing, wrestling or even just ordinary fighting!"

When Sammo expressed initial reluctance in the necessity of learning all styles of fighting, Bruce pointed out two films he worked on which weren't martial arts movies: A Walk In The Spring Rain and The Green Berets. What Sammo realized from Bruce was that not everyone in a film is going to have the same set of styles or even be a martial artist, there's bound to come a time when he might choreograph a fight scene involving someone who isn't particularly a martial artist per se.

With Bruce breaking boundaries for the Chinese film industry, anything was possible so this is what finally made Sammo venture out to learn as much as he could.

Sammo learned a lot from Bruce in terms of filmmaking. Now, of course, many people in the industry said they learned a lot from Bruce but they really mean indirectly (i.e. when they saw one of his films in the cinemas or as they saw him working on set).

If you go to the Google site, then search in the Groups section for "slowly-paced sword battle" you'll find a page (from this group) which debates the quality of the first prequel's fight sequences.

Issues that are brought up on the page are ones concerning poor camerawork and choreography that doesn't live up to Hong Kong standards. These are pretty obvious issues in themselves but there are two other issues which have been overlooked.

The first issue is one concerning the capabilities of the actors to perform the demanding stunts. I'll just quote what the people said in regards to this issue....

Person 1)...

"I dunno, maybe I am of the minority here. I was impressed with the fight scenes. They might not have been equal to say a Hong Kong action movie, but I didn't expect them to be. I certainly didn't go to see the new Starwars for the Jedi fight scenes, I found them to be a nice suprise. I think we are going to have to accept that most actors are not going to be martial artists. And, to put such big expectations on these individuals who have had probably a week of "lightsaber" training to come out and wow us with Jackie Chan style action, is ridiculous."

Person 2)...

"I disagree on this comment. The amount of martial-arts training the actors (or their doubles) will have is strictly a production decision. The Wachowski's, in making their sophomore effort, allegedly had a clause in the contracts stipulating that the principle actors in 'The Matrix' would go through x weeks of martial-arts training, and they brought in veteran HK director Yuen Woo-Ping to do it. I would find it hard to believe that the Wachowski's have more clout in their contract negotiation than George Bleeping Lucas.

It all comes down to how well the filmmakers understand their audience, what they want to give the audience and what they're willing to do to deliver. Given a choice between Yuen Woo-Ping and Jar-Jar Binks...well, let's not even go there."

(on that same page, person #2 goes on to say that Sammo couldn't work on Star Wars because of commitment to Martial Law but Sammo only did Martial Law after being turned down to work on Star Wars, which lead to Sammo working on Knock Off so first it was Knock Off then it was Martial Law)

The second issue is the comparison in time periods. One of the many things said about the lightsaber fights in the Star Wars prequels is that they're supposedly great just because they're better than the originals (which isn't really saying that much, think about the year Empire Strikes Back was made in - Sammo had choreographed better sword fights in The Odd Couple).

It's like saying the fight scenes in Tsui Hark's OUATIC movies are so magnificent because they completely blow away the fights in the older Wong Fei Hung movies from the 40s, but given the passages of time they're bound to be somewhat better.

Even if it could be argued that the quality of what Sammo was doing in 1979 (i.e. when he worked on his swordplay masterpiece, The Odd Couple) is equal to what Nick did in the late 90s and early 00's, what's not to say that Sammo would have evolved into doing something better by the time Episode I came into production (i.e. in 1997)? For a good example of this, look at how Ping evolved from doing Snake in the Eagle's Shadow and Drunken Master (1978 ) to Fist of Legend and Iron Monkey (1994)...a huge leap in quality!

A strong metaphorical example of this is, like, say there's a martial artist who became a black belt at the age of 16 in 1979 and another martial artist who became a black belt at the age of 16 in 1997. Whilst it could be argued that their quality is the same, for all we know the 1979-martial artist could have gained more black belts by the time it was 1997 when he was aged 34.

Proof that Sammo had the right to be the choreographer was that in an early interview with George Lucas about the prequels, he was quoted as saying that the character of the young Obi-Wan Kenobi was inspired/loosely based on Andy Lau's character from Moon Warriors (mostly in regards to the first prequel). This was confirmed by Frank Djeng, president of Hong Kong film importer Tai Seng, as during a visit to ILM not only was he told this but he was also told that George Lucas' favourite Hong Kong film is Moon Warriors.

A lot of the things said on the Star Wars site (and on wikipedia.org) applies more deservedly to Sammo than Nick:

"He prefers the stuntwork woven into the fabric of the film rather than paraded for the sake of spectacle."

"Much more than pure action, the lightsaber battles of this film are designed to advance the story and reveal the nature of the characters through physical movements in combat."

"If the fight is good enough, and gritty enough...then you don't need gimmicks." (as said by Nick)

"The various styles were devised for the prequels and intended to further characterize their practitioners. The duels were even choreographed to be miniature "stories" "

(even then, there's a sense that much of the "storytelling" in these fights is a result of George Lucas' input as opposed to Nick's)

"You can't just think, 'I'm a stunt coordinator, I'm going to make a big stunt happen', it's all about making it tie in nicely with the film so that you don't notice the stunts. Creating narrative through physical expression, I wrote each fight as an individual story that supports the overall structure of the movie. All the fights have a beginning, a middle and an end. I worked hard to write them like a story."

Sammo did more of that, prior to Episode I, than Nick as can be seen here although there are other examples. The point is, Sammo was not only an action director but a film director, of action films or otherwise. Moreso than Nick, Sammo understood the importance of how an action sequence should be incorporated as part of an overall storyline rather than as a distraction (or detached element) from it.

Film after film, he showed that he understood clearly that characterization and narrative development don't end when an action sequence begins, they should be consistent/constant (such fluidity between action and non-action sequences being like water). I'm sure whatever he would have choreographed for the prequels would have had more meaning and storytelling than Gillard's and he would have successfully incorporated the unique styles to each character.

The following paragraph is pretentious of Nick given that the only official credential he has in sword fighting is being a black belt in Kendo...

"I figured that since the Jedi had chosen a lightsaber, they'd have to be really good with it so I took the essence of all the great sword fighting techniques, from kendo through saber, épée, and foil, and flowed them together. These lightsaber fights seem to fall into two categories: On the one hand, those strongly influenced by Asian martial arts experience, typically adapting Japanese kenjutsu and kendo, the familiar Filipino Arnis/Escrima, or the stylistic Chinese Opera kung fu clichés of non-stop twirling and obsessive spinning with extra wide exaggerated motion."

When held in comparison to Sammo, these comments attributed to Nick feel like literal hyperbole or promo fluff that makes his work seem overhyped and overrated to the veteran eye.

The only reason I can think of as to why George turned down Sammo was because he wrongly assumed that his style of action is supposedly in the same vein as Ching Siu Tung (flowerly, style-over-substance and superfluous choreography where people fight with swords as if they're performing ballet with lots of excessive wire-work and Wu Tang positions).

Sure, Sammo is an expert of Chinese swordplay but that's not the only form of swordplay he's an expert in. Even then, not all forms of Chinese swordfighting consist of "stylistic Chinese Opera kung fu clichés of non-stop twirling and obsessive spinning with extra wide exaggerated motion".

The only GOOD (i.e. one that seems the most coherent) reason I can think of is that Sammo is just too complex as a fight choreographer (not just in choreography but camera positioning, editing and camera speed) given the time George may have wanted to have the scenes constructed.

His English you might ask? Well, Sammo didn't know any less English than Ping did when the latter worked on The Matrix.

People's worries that there would have been too much martial arts or Oriental swordplay stylings are unfounded. Sammo's versatility has been proven in films such as On the Run and A View from the Top which required him to do no more than realistic street (casual) fighting moves i.e. the sort of fighting that a regular person can do. Sammo has always been authentic with his visual depiction of a certain fighting art (i.e. if he was depicting someone doing Karate it wouldn't be merely a case of it being Karate in name {or clothed appearance} only but in technique as well).

Assuming Sammo would have gone "too chop-socky" just because he's Chinese for the film is like assuming a Western fight choreographer would only put boxing or wrestling into a martial arts movie.

Now this comment may lead some people to think that maybe Nick's background involved being trained in LOTS of arts than Western arts but, as mentioned before, the only official credential he really has is Kendo and the nature of his background and the nature of the films he worked on means that he doesn't know as much as (let alone more than) Sammo or even someone like Jackie or Ping.

There's nothing to suggest that Nick knows more than Sammo. With Sammo working in Spain for Wheels On Meals and working in Japan for My Lucky Stars, it's understandable that he would have had official training in fencing and Japanese swordfighting systems (given the fact that Sammo always like to research fighting styles prior to working on a movie). Thus there's more evidence of knowledge and experience in his filmography than Nick's.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it would have made more sense for George to have chosen Sammo given the fact that the nature of Sammo's background gives more credibility if Sammo was to say he knew all swordfighting systems and if Sammo claimed to have had lots of experience (experience that indicates he's more knowledgeable than Nick).

I think probably the worst fight scenes in the prequels are the first fight between Darth Maul and Qui-Gon Jinn (the camerawork is awful) and the fight between Palpatine and the three Jedis. The latter fight is pathetic to say the least.

Some of you, okay a lot of you, might say "Well, come on, the guy who plays Palpatine is very old!" but read the following paragraph taken from the IMDB:

"Ian McDiarmid is doubled by a trained stuntman for his light-saber battles and more physically demanding shots such as when Palpatine scrambles away from Mace Windu in the film's climactic scene. As with Christopher Lee CGI was quite convincingly used to put the actor's face over the face of the stunt double."

There's a lot of faults within that action sequence. Considering that they're supposed to provide back-up for Mace Windu, the three miscellaneous Jedis go down way too quickly and unconvincingly. The choreography is simply uninspired. The fact that Mace doesn't do anything when Anakin strikes is poor and he's meant to be second to Yoda (or at least superior to Obi-Wan) as far as Jedis go.

With matters like these, it's highly unlikely that Nick would have actually convinced George to go for him unless he tried downplaying other people's knowledge and giving too much credit for his own.

kabuki5678 and myself aren't the only ones who've offered negative criticisms pertaining to Nick's work on the prequels.

Here are the following criticisms as taken from this page:

"Having a black belt in one martial art does not make one an expert in all of them. The only SWORD related training Gillard has mentioned is Kendo."

"I am not the only one with this opinion, all over the sword and fight master related forums is the opinion that Gillard dosn't know what he is doing as far a swordplay goes. He betrays this himself every time he opens his mouth. He say things like "every attack and parry is deliberate, there are no extraneous movements" yet the fights are full of pirouettes, sword twirling and just plain silly looking stuff. He makes noises that sound cool to the fanboys, but to a trained eye, he is only spouting cool sounding nonsense."

"Compare a Gillard fight to one staged by William Hobbes (Rob Roy, the Duelists, The Three Musketeers), in fact you can even see how the same actor (Liam Neeson) looks when handled by Hobbs (Rob Roy) and by Gillard (Phantom Menace). I could go on (don't even get me started on Count Dooku's saber style), but the point is that handling a sword fight in a movie so that it looks good not only to the average fan in the seats, but to the swordsman in the third row is a skill, and a true art. Gillard is not in any way a "master" of that art."

"I will admit that the Darth Maul sequences were the best fights in all three prequels. I attribute this not to Gillard, but to Park, who did contribute."

"If you want the mechanics, every thing seen in the prequels is pretty much kendo based."

"When I think about it, with a light weapon, spinning around would still be a bad idea since the weapon that the opponent is using is just as light and fast. It would take a bare minimum of effort and a small flick of the wrist to nail someone mid spin. Turning one's back on an opponent is seldom a good idea, and I really wouldn't want to do it if the opponent was using a weapon that weighed, well, nothing."

"Spinning would only work with someone slower who could not capitalize on the breach in the defense. From a purely technical viewpoint as far as swordsmanship goes, unless you are fighting someone slower than you, the speed pirouette is a bad idea."

"As for Dooku. The first thing that struck me about the saber he had (If I were a Jedi, THAT is the style I would have), was that it seemed like a weapon that would be best used one handed. I was disappointed to see him use the same, two handed, kendo based stuff. Later, in the fight with Yoda (and I have to admit, I had to watch this again to make sure) he does switch to one hand, and does circle, but it really dosn't vary that much from what came before."

"The Wikipedia article mentions that his style is based on La Verdadera Destreza, I didn't see that. Destreza looks like flamenco dancing with swords (I have read this, and have had a few flamenco dancers tell me this). It uses a very specific set of footwork, in connect with the bladework. Neither were in evidence in Dooku's fighting."

"The tragedy is that Dooku's saber is quite well suited to Destreza, as much as Maul's was to the style that Park used it. I would have love to see Dooku use a more Western approch in his fighting, it would have looked completly different from what had been seen before, the Eastern, katana and staff work that other Jedi used, and would have suited the character, and the weapon."

"What Dooku and the other Jedi fail to use with any real propensity is the thrust. When a Spanish Diestro comes on guard, he stands with his sword arm extended and his body in profile. This maximizes the reach with a thrust. Thrusts are fast and difficult to parry. As the famous English Swordmaster, George Silver, remarked they often lead to fatalities when a cut would not. This is one of the primary reasons, you don't see a lot of thrusts in movie fighting. They don't look as flashy as the larger cutting actions and they represent a danger to the actors because they leave little room for error. In reality, a Spanish swordsman would use an equal amount of cuts and thrusts, but would prefer to use a thrust to finish the fight quickly."

Whilst the Star Wars prequels are essentially CGI movies and there are scenes where people use the force, most of the CGI in the lightsaber action sequences would be either the CGI backdrops (environments) and the lightsabers themselves. Therefore I can't see how under those particular circumstances, it would have hindered Sammo the ability to display his magic. The nature of the films meant that it would have given Sammo the opportunity to choreograph intricate and prolonged action sequences.

Another issue that's been brought up is that Sammo has supposedly lost his touch to choreograph truly fantastic fight sequences. To be honest, Sammo still has the knowledge and mastery (and maybe even a few more new tricks up his sleeves), he just lacks the resources necessary to show his full talents.

One has to bear in mind that the reason why Sammo's work in the 90s and onwards wasn't up to par with his old work was because he was no longer getting the best projects.

...and by that I mean working with very big budgets, the best possible scripts, the right team of stuntmen and leading martial artists as well as his celebrated team of choreographers (Bill, Billy and Lam).

About before, what I meant about Ping working by himself is that even though he always works with his "usual suspects", IF he was to work by himself then the results wouldn't be as good! Likewise, with what I meant when I said the same thing about Lau!

I'm not trying to undermine the abilities of Ping, Leung and Hung. There's a good reason (and then some:) ) as to why they're respected and they probably do choreograph the majority of their work but, at the same time, one shouldn't underestimate the importance of the assistants that have been associated with their name in the credits of many of their classic movies.

Which reminds me, I think something similar to this was stated about a year ago when someone on here mentioned that it's because of the importance of Ping's assistants that Yuen Cheung Yan was hired for Charlie's Angels and Daredevil (although one could easily say that it was because Ping wasn't available:p ).

But back to why Sammo has disappointed us with his 90s offerings, we should bear in mind that time is a very decisive factor in how one constructs an action sequence of a particular calibre. Just like they say "time is money" so Sammo may not have been able to construct the sort of ornate beauty we associate with his once-good legendary name.

The script is important because you can't just have any old great Hong Kong fight choreographer work on a movie and expect the fight scenes to be Drunken Master 2 quality. It depends on whether the structure of the storyline (e.g. the time period setting, the environment of the action takes place in, fighting styles, etc.) naturally allows to have the sort of intricate, imaginative and prolonged fight sequences we associate when we think of Hong Kong action cinema. With what's said in this paragraph, why else would the fights in Rumble In The Bronx be not as good as the same year's Drunken Master 2!

The reason why Sammo wasn't getting the opportunity to work with people like Donnie Yen or Jet Li on projects like Fist of Legend or to work with Jackie on Drunken Master 2, can be traced to him leaving Golden Harvest in 1989.

As a lot of you already know, Sammo was making some of the biggest budgeted movies to come out of Hong Kong during the mid-to-late 80s (minus Jackie Chan's Miracles). To be more specific, I'm referring to Millionaire's Express, Eastern Condors and Pedicab Driver. The films had translated well to Western territories, but they didn't perform as spectacularly in the Asian market as expected.

Because of the less-than-stellar results, his production companies BoHo and Bojon were struggling so Golden Harvest were starting to think that his time was over and that he was becoming an expensive indulgence.

The situation was different with Jackie Chan. He was Golden Harvest's biggest star, both locally and overseas so it was more easier to get rid of Sammo. Golden couldn't afford to have both Jackie and Sammo simultaneously making overly ambitious projects so there had to be a compromise.

Sammo and the owners of Golden Harvest parted company thereafter and not in the best of circumstances.

After when Sammo left, Jackie was allowed to make Operation Condor primarily because it seemed more guaranteed for international success than Sammo's big-budget offerings (the film being marketed as an Indiana Jones-type adventure with three actresses whose nationalities were to cover as many international markets as much as possible).

Sammo wasn't able to work on any real big hits so naturally because of him not working on a very successful film like Once Upon a Time in China, he wasn't able to work on the big-league projects that Ping and Co. were lapping up.

Think about it, had Sammo worked on Once Upon a Time in China, Iron Monkey and Fist of Legend, would the Wachowski brothers still have gone for Yuen Woo Ping and the rest of the Yuen Clan? Would Ang Lee still have gone for Ping for Matrix? Same thing in correlation with Luc Besson and Unleashed?

The truth is Yuen Woo Ping has been hired on the most projects, not because Sammo isn't as good or better but because Ping's has been attached to the most biggest hits, so Sammo has been relegated to doing second-rate projects at best. For instance, there came a long period of time when Andy Lau was getting the most projects in Hong Kong versus Tony Leung Chiu Wai but that doesn't mean to say Andy is a better actor than Tony.

With Sammo doing very little of what him a truly big icon in the first place, it saddens me to see such a beloved icon, and personal idol, fall from grace.

I hope I get some interesting feedback!

Opinions that are either neutral, positive, negative....I don't mind!

I appreciate what anyone/everyone has to say on this issue!

I, for one, hope that it will lead to some other interesting areas of discussion e.g. why, in this particular era of cinema, we don't have Hong Kong action directors working on nearly every action-related project in Hollywood? (martial arts or otherwise)

Personally, I've always felt the action sequences in Elektra could have been benefited if Lau Kar Leung worked on it since a lot of the film's action deals with the usage of traditional martial arts weaponary!

Though of course, it would be a stretch to assume that had he worked on it, it would rival his work on something like Heroes of the East!:lol :rollin

Which reminds me, I thought it be very interesting for you people to read what Mister Gil (not sure if any/many of you remember him) had to say when I brought this up to him via e-mail:) .......

"Interesting topic. Here are my thoughts:

First of all, before anything, one has to understand what action film making is all about and what it is made up of. Most people think it's just about choreographer and nothing else.

For example, when people talk about Ching Siu Tung, in light of films such as House of Flying Daggers and Hero, they refer to him just as a choreographer and think that Zhang Yimou directed the action. In reality, anyone who is familiar with Siu Tung, directorially, would notice that the fight scenes were also helmed by him, not just choreographed by him .

What I am trying to say here is that all action scenes require more than just choreographer to make an action scene work. It needs direction and editing. People also undermine the importance of editing. Editing action scenes, especially when talking about Hong Kong action scenes, is extremely daunting because you need an individual who is able to understand the language of action and help bring the director's intentions to life.

This is different than dialog scenes because Hong Kong action directors do not shoot action like dialog scenes. It follows a completely different philosophy and this is what makes it so hard. Hollywood does not understand any of this which is why you get the subpar to horrible action set pieces that is typically clobbed together by them.

As a result you get @#%$ action sequences in films like Batman Begins, The Bourne Identity, and it's worse when these inept editors work on a action sequence directed by a Hong Kong action director and they end up destroying their compositions (case and point, Kiss of the Dragon).

Going back to direction, what people don't understand, especially Hollywood, is that choreography alone will not make a sequence work. You need someone who can see the choreography with grand scope in order to incorporate the best angles, shots, camera movements, and placements that will best highlight the choreography and the intent of the film as a whole.

You can have the best choreographer in the world but if you have a director who is inept at understanding action film making you are limiting the sequence because the choreography is not being completed. The result is something that will quite simply, look very bad (case and point, The Musketeer).

When those are understood, and we go back to Star Wars, in many ways I am glad that Sammo didn't work on those films. The reason being that, as much of a genius that he is, unfortunately the Western world does not understand action film making as a whole and does not appreciate it. George Lucas would not allow Sammo the full control he would need in order to present the action of the film as it needs to be.

He would probably be just hired to come in and just tell the actors what moves to do and that would be all. Sammo would need control in the direction of those scenes in order to provide effective and exciting angles that would flow with the choreography. Another thing that Sammo would never be given is time to do the sequences. Any typical Hollywood fight is choreographed in a couple of hours and shot in a couple of hours. Hong Kong action sequences take weeks to film, even up to months.

Considering, as you pointed out, Sammo is a genius at translating fighting styles to the screen, he would need time to understand exactly what kind of fighting style the Jedi use, since they are after all a made up culture, before actually starting to put the sequences together. Add that time to the fact that then he would then choreograph the scenes, work with the actors, then go on set to take the time to properly direct the sequences, then editing, etc. you are talking about a lot of time that is needed to do these sequences. George would never allow that to happen.

It's a shame that such is the case in Hollywood, and unfortunately the current state of action film making here in the West isn't looking any better. Horrible action scenes like those in Batman Begins are made because the people who are doing these fight scenes think that they are offering an alternative to Hong Kong action, which many in Hollywood frown upon and simply consider it a fad ("none of that 'chop chopy' stuff.").

The people who work on these action scenes are individuals who come from the same line of talentless people who have been fallen off of horses and getting punched from here till Tuesday by John Wanye. They don't appreciate the art of action film making like they do in the East and there is no one in the West who compares to the high talent of the East in this field.

In a perfect world, Sammo would be hired and given all the time and aid he would have needed to do the scenes, but even if he would 90% of those demands would never be met."

I hope I've created something of an interesting discussion for people to debate over!8) /8o

:smokin

:hat

[Guest Beat TG]

damn, that's alot you wrote there!:b

[Guest W Hong]

"No-one ever made traditional Kung Fu more effective on-screen - and no action star, including Chan, ever looks better than they do when directed by Sammo."

What about when Lau Kar Leung directed "Martial Arts of Shaolin" and some of those Shaw Brothers kung fu movies? The kung fu in "MAoS"(Jet Li) was incredible. And I know that LKL was a fight choreographer but not the director of "Operation Scorpio", and that Chin Kar Lok did a little bit of "breakdancing kung fu" in that movie, but didn't "OS" still have some good fight scenes especially w/ Won Jin?

And don't you think that "Ashes of Time" is a '90's H.K. movie where Sammo did a good job as an action director?

As for what Mr. Gil said about U.S. action movies, what about "Raiders of the Lost Ark", "Lethal Weapon", "Robocop", and "Die Hard(which has a lot of imitators)"?

Also, if Philip Kwok was the fight choreographer for Michelle Yeoh's fight scene in "Tomorrow Never Dies", then I think that he did a bad job there because the fight scene wasn't that good.

[Guest JOSEPH KUBY]

Beat, I had a lot to get off my chest.

Wong, I think what Bey meant, in regards to Sammo making traditional Kung Fu most effective on screen, was that Sammo made traditional Kung Fu more convincingly powerful than everyone else.

The best thing to do is to ask Bey himself...

beylogan@yahoo.com.hk

...and quote the paraphrased section I took from that magazine article! Also, ask him why he feels Sammo was the true successor to Bruce Lee in terms of on-screen fight choreography (just in case anyone asks on here what he meant;) ).

I'm not saying all of Sammo's work in the 90s was bad (I, for one, appreciated his work on Ashes of Time, Pantyhose Hero and Kung Fu Cult Master), it's just considering his reputation he wasn't being given anything as impressive as what the others had to work with. His work in the 90s overall doesn't live up to (let alone surpass) the stuff he did in the previous decades.

Phillip wasn't given as much freedom with the fight choreography for the Bond movie so we shouldn't be too hard on him.

[Guest Tosh]

Personally, I like Lau Kar Leung choreography better than Sammos, not to take anything away from the big guy, just a preference.

Also, if Philip Kwok was the fight choreographer for Michelle Yeoh's fight scene in "Tomorrow Never Dies", then I think that he did a bad job there because the fight scene wasn't that good.

I don't think you can blame Kwok for this, look at the awesome fight scenes he did in Brotherhood of the Wolf (otherwise, away from Sorrywood).

I always hear people say there's no more good choreographers left, I think that's bullcrap, there out there, if the directors and producers would let them do their jobs, without sticking their noses in there, plus, what gets edited out? That's why we had such great fight scenes back in the day, the action was often done by the directors.

[Linn1]

he himself admits he is biased to Golden Harvest and Sammo Hung in particular. Looking at both their work, I think that Lau and Sammo are at least equals. As directors, they both have nearly exact numbers of classic films under their belt. As for the topic, I agree, Sammo would have most likely been better off had he gotten the chance. But I would have also loved to have seen any HK action directors take on the jedi.

[Guest Markgway]

Sammo and Lau are both outstanding at what they do... so why quibble? :smokin

[Guest Chen Zhen]

And I know that LKL was a fight choreographer but not the director of "Operation Scorpio", and that Chin Kar Lok did a little bit of "breakdancing kung fu" in that movie, but didn't "OS" still have some good fight scenes especially w/ Won Jin?

actually, i believe the main choreographers on that film was Yuen Tak and Corey Yuen.

[Guest theportlykicker]

On the subject of Sammo and LKL as choreographers, and I hope this doesn't turn into a who's better than who thread, but personally I would give Sammo the edge simply because he successfully converted to the modern kickboxing genre while LKL didn't. As Old-skool choreographers they were God-like equals IMO but Sammo carried that on into modern 80s choreography, while LKL just didn't. Granted, LKL wasn't given much of a chance in the 80s but looking at the few films he did work on you can clearly see he wasn't comfortable choreographing modern fight scenes. Even LKL's bro was more successful than him in that respect.