Crime Story Thread

[Guest Ministry88]

NT

[Guest The Running Man]

Crime Story would have been a better film had Chan not toned down the content a few notches and put in his disctinct martial arts choreography. It just comes off as unrealistic and out of place considering the subject matter on hand.

I don't get it. You mean if he didn't put in his "disctint martial arts choreography"?

Big Bullet is one I forgot to mention, though it sorta suffers from the Crime-story syndrome and falls apart at the end.

Huh?

[Guest Yakuza954]

I don't get it. You mean if he didn't put in his "disctint martial arts choreography"?

Yeah, didn't.

Big Bullet is one I forgot to mention, though it sorta suffers from the Crime-story syndrome and falls apart at the end.

Its very well known that the ending of the Big Bullet feels totally different from the rest of the film. It has a different tone, feels different from what the rest of the film was building up to and Anthony Wong's character even starts doing martial arts even though he never did any beforehand. I find that similar to Crime Story.

[Guest theportlykicker]

I disagree. I think Jackie finished Crime Story off really well. The fights weren't the usual light-hearted affairs with perfectly executed techniques, but more realistic and felt like more of a struggle for his life. The last part of the movie's great IMO.

[Guest Beat TG]

a clip of the final gun battle:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YqGizvK-Fk

[Guest Yakuza954]

haha, looks like someone left both audio tracks playing in their VCD.. Still a great scene.

I disagree. I think Jackie finished Crime Story off really well. The fights weren't the usual light-hearted affairs with perfectly executed techniques, but more realistic and felt like more of a struggle for his life. The last part of the movie's great IMO.

But what about the first half? It's much more grittier and realistic. Jackie Chan's character had psychological problems that were true to the real life person it was based off, and the cops and triads were fighting each other with pistols and shotguns. Even real life triad rituals were portrayed. In the second half all that's gone. Jackie Chan's character suddenly has no psychological problems, and the bad guys no longer have pistols and shotguns. They now conveniently carry around knives and Jackie is now able to fight them hand to hand in big group fights. If I wanted JC to do that I'd watch Police Story, and movie ends up being one of his average-level efforts, when it could have ended up as one of the all-time great Hong Kong Triad movies. This is one situation in which JC sacrificed making a better film in order to keep his light-hearted image known worldwide in tact.

[Guest theportlykicker]

This is one situation in which JC sacrificed making a better film in order to keep his light-hearted image known worldwide in tact.

I'd hardly call shooting a burning man dead part of his "light-hearted image known worldwide".

[Guest Yakuza954]

It's well documented that Jackie gave Kirk Wong the boot during production because he felt Kirk was ruining his light-hearted image.

[Guest The Running Man]

No. He gave him the boot cause of the sex scene that Kirk Wong filmed.

As far as the action goes, the second half of the film has action that is totally in line with the rest of the film. The thing that the bad guys don't have guns? That's common place in plenty of HK films. Look at City on Fire. When they go to rob the store at the start of the film, the majority of them have knives and blades. Some have weapons. Same in Crime Story. Towards the end of the fight some of the pull out guns.

And that fight scene, the one before the building blows up, feels nothing like any of his fights in any film he has ever done before. The angles he picked, the edit points, the style of choroegraphy are all totally different and that's cause Jackie made those decisions to keep in the tone that Wong had established. The result is is the single best girtty down to earth realistic fight ever filmed as far as I am concerned. All of these horrible Western movies that try to go for that realistic style and just do these silly "shaky cam" crap should watch that scene because that's how it's down.

[Guest theportlykicker]

Yakuza, I know that Kirk Wong was fired, I was just stating that that moment of the film is an example of a dark and gritty moment directed by Jackie, and doesn't adhere to his supposed light-hearted image.

And Running Man, I agree with everything you just said. Now I never thought I'd see myself type that!

[Guest Yakuza954]

No. He gave him the boot cause of the sex scene that Kirk Wong filmed.

I'm going by what I heard in Bey Logan's commentary track for Crime Story and what I've read from other sources. Jackie gave Kirk Wong the boot because he was worried about his international image. Part of it could have been for a sex scene, but I have no doubt it was because of the general tone of the film. That's why Jackie's psychiatrist and his character's emotional problems disappear later in the plot. Its also why Jackie told Dimension to release Police Story 3 instead of Crime Story, even without a sex scene. And its also why there's such a stark contrast between the action in the first half and second half.

As far as the action goes, the second half of the film has action that is totally in line with the rest of the film. The thing that the bad guys don't have guns? That's common place in plenty of HK films. Look at City on Fire. When they go to rob the store at the start of the film, the majority of them have knives and blades. Some have weapons. Same in Crime Story. Towards the end of the fight some of the pull out guns.

And that fight scene, the one before the building blows up, feels nothing like any of his fights in any film he has ever done before. The angles he picked, the edit points, the style of choroegraphy are all totally different and that's cause Jackie made those decisions to keep in the tone that Wong had established. The result is is the single best girtty down to earth realistic fight ever filmed as far as I am concerned. All of these horrible Western movies that try to go for that realistic style and just do these silly "shaky cam" crap should watch that scene because that's how it's down

It may be more realistic and violent than what JC usually does, but it's toned down compared to Kirk Wong's version, and it's still out of place. The first half of the film has gunplay in the middle of the street between JC and the bad guys. They're both armed with shotguns and pistols and there's no hand to hand to speak of. The second half has Jackie Chan jumping around, doing his usual improvization, and using objects around him to defeat Triads who are now mostly armed with knives. It's obvious they were changed to knives to allow hand to hand combat. Otherwise how is Jackie going to stut his stuff with everyone pointing a gun at him? Because thats what would have happened if the film had continued along its original lines.

[Guest The Running Man]

I'm going by what I heard in Bey Logan's commentary track for Crime Story and what I've read from other sources. Jackie gave Kirk Wong the boot because he was worried about his international image. Part of it could have been for a sex scene, but I have no doubt it was because of the general tone of the film.

That is incorrect. Bey Logan doesn't know what he's talking about. Jackie knew full well Kirk Wong's style and that's exactly why he wanted to be in the film. Jackie always wanted to branch out to do different kind of films but his producers would make it difficult for him. He saw this as an opportunity to do something different. However, Jackie was filming both City Hunter and this movie at the same time. While he was away filming City Hunter Kirk would film scenes that didn't involve him to advance the production. On one of those times he filmed a full on sex scene and when Jackie saw the dailies when he came back, he was furious with Kirk and fired him from his own set. That's the only reason why.

That's why Jackie's psychiatrist and his character's emotional problems disappear later in the plot.

Kirk Wong was fired from the movie. That section of it left with him since he never finished the film himself.

Its also why Jackie told Dimension to release Police Story 3 instead of Crime Story, even without a sex scene.

If he did tell him that then it was most likely because he was being introduced in the US and frankly, Police Story 3 is a better intro to Jackie Chan than Crime Story is.

It may be more realistic and violent than what JC usually does, but it's toned down compared to Kirk Wong's version, and it's still out of place.

On all of those points it is not true. It is totally with the style that was established. Look at the angles, the choreography, the performances of the moves, etc....none of these are like a Jackie Chan film. Toned down? As someone earlier pointed out, a man is burning to death in one scene. Normally in a Jackie Chan film he would stop fighting and try to save the man's life (i.e. Drunken Master 2) but in this movie Jackie instead actually just shoots the man dead. That's pretty hardcore if you ask me.

The first half of the film has gunplay in the middle of the street between JC and the bad guys. They're both armed with shotguns and pistols and there's no hand to hand to speak of.

You are talking about one scene and one scene only and that was an isolated incident. The men with who firing in the middle of the street must have been a gang or group that managed to get the guns and start going crazy. That has nothing to do with style. The way the action was filmed is what is consistent.

The second half has Jackie Chan jumping around, doing his usual improvization, and using objects around him to defeat Triads who are now mostly armed with knives.

You are not looking at the scenes in the right context. Yes Jackie might be using objects, but you don't see him doing perfect routines with them in the movie. They all are down to earth in their usage and execution and that also goes for the performances of the moves. When Ken Lo is fighting Jackie for example, you don't see him doing perfect roundhouse kicks and holding his leg up in the air like Drunken Master 2 do you? No, you see Ken ramming his leg at Jackie instead of flaring it at him. You see him performing moves that are rough not pretty like he was in Drunken Master 2. And the extent of the object usage in Crime Story is limited to somebody just picking up something and hurling it rather than stopping to create it into a prop to perform.

It's obvious they were changed to knives to allow hand to hand combat.

Guns are still used in the film. And about the knives being changed for hand to hand, no...it's very well known that guns are far more difficult to obtain in HK than in the US for example (don't know if it's any different nowadays). Don't call this a cheap excuse btw because if you look at plenty of other HK films even in bank robbers you see people holding out knives with a few guns. Like I said, look at Ringo Lam's City on Fire. That bank robbery had more knives in use than actual guns being used. And that incident was based on a true story mind you.

[Guest jirpy100]

I also feel the inclusion of martial arts was a bad decision. The "switch-over" is too noticible. Kirk Wong was busy creating a HK masterpiece, but instead of fitting in with Wong's vision, Jackie made the production fit him, I believe.

The opening scene draws you into the character, and placed Jackie in unkown territory, and I found it a great draw.

We all know Asian films generally do not follow Western film logic (cause and effect, not just effect with no preceding realistic and believable cause), but this film was mostly an exception, until Jackie brought his "kung fu film" logic into play.

Fans of the 2nd half often criticise people for mention how unrealistic the martial arts content is... We all enjoy the various martial arts forms, but never will we take a scene seriously where a police officer uses martial arts to "question" a suspect for instance. In Alias I can take it seriously because it's economical, believable, and lasts a few seconds, but it looked silly and childish in CS to tell the truth. I stopped taking the film serious when Jackie started jumping from spanned cloth-cloth while the bad guy systematically stabs one cloth after the other... please!!!

And the only reason us fans of the first half get into this argument is because we love Jackie and we wished he would've finished the film under Kirk Wong's steady hand, because then he would have had at least one film where he showcased he was more than a martial arts star...

"The difference between a movie star and a movie actor is this; a movie star will say, 'How can I change the script to suit me?' and a movie actor will say; 'How can I change me to suit the script?'" - Michael Caine

[Guest The Running Man]

also feel the inclusion of martial arts was a bad decision.

There is none in the film.

The "switch-over" is too noticible.

No.

We all know Asian films generally do not follow Western film logic (cause and effect, not just effect with no preceding realistic and believable cause), but this film was mostly an exception, until Jackie brought his "kung fu film" logic into play.

No. Western film logic is to film action horrendously typically with awful shaky cam, bad editing, and laughable choreography.

Fans of the 2nd half often criticise people for mention how unrealistic the martial arts content is... We all enjoy the various martial arts forms, but never will we take a scene seriously where a police officer uses martial arts to "question" a suspect for instance.

Seems to me that fans that criticize the second half seem to remember the movie differently since your description of the scene is incorrect. He did not use martial arts to "question" a suspect.

In Alias I can take it seriously because it's economical, believable, and lasts a few seconds, but it looked silly and childish in CS to tell the truth.

In Alias I can never take anything serious because the action is horrible and amateurish. But in Hollywood, amateur action direction is high class.

I stopped taking the film serious when Jackie started jumping from spanned cloth-cloth while the bad guy systematically stabs one cloth after the other... please!!!

You are forcing your opinion on the film with this. I can think of hundreds of US films that are not martial arts that feature situations similar to this that are not logical in the real world, but are in the movie world.

And the only reason us fans of the first half get into this argument is because we love Jackie and we wished he would've finished the film under Kirk Wong's steady hand, because then he would have had at least one film where he showcased he was more than a martial arts star...

Reads to me that you have an awfully simple minded approach to any films that feature martial arts if you believe that any film that does have martial arts never leaves room for acting.

[Guest Yakuza954]

Kirk Wong was fired from the movie. That section of it left with him since he never finished the film himself.

It was based off of real events, so Jackie Chan could have easily continued with the plotline.

If he did tell him that then it was most likely because he was being introduced in the US and frankly, Police Story 3 is a better intro to Jackie Chan than Crime Story is.

Yeah, because Crime Story was too dark. Even after taking out Kirk Wong, removing the sex scene, the sub-plot with the psychiatrist, and changing the emphasis from gunplay to hand to hand, he was still afraid the movie would ruin his international image.

On all of those points it is not true. It is totally with the style that was established. Look at the angles, the choreography, the performances of the moves, etc....none of these are like a Jackie Chan film. Toned down? As someone earlier pointed out, a man is burning to death in one scene. Normally in a Jackie Chan film he would stop fighting and try to save the man's life (i.e. Drunken Master 2) but in this movie Jackie instead actually just shoots the man dead. That's pretty hardcore if you ask me.

None of this is hardcore for a Triad movie. Its actually pretty normal. It's more hardcore then what you'd see in a regular JC movie, but Kirk Wong has made movies with far more gruesome scenes. To tell the truth I'm surprised by all the gruesome scenes you guys are talking about in the 2nd half because I don't really remember any. The first half of the movie easily left more of an impact, like that scene with the cop on the motorcycle being hit by a car.

You are talking about one scene and one scene only and that was an isolated incident. The men with who firing in the middle of the street must have been a gang or group that managed to get the guns and start going crazy. That has nothing to do with style. The way the action was filmed is what is consistent.

Its not like it was the only gun fight in the first half. There was at least 2 others, and I believe the first one was a different gang entirely. No hand to hand combat in sight. Thats anything but consistent.

You are not looking at the scenes in the right context. Yes Jackie might be using objects, but you don't see him doing perfect routines with them in the movie. They all are down to earth in their usage and execution and that also goes for the performances of the moves. When Ken Lo is fighting Jackie for example, you don't see him doing perfect roundhouse kicks and holding his leg up in the air like Drunken Master 2 do you? No, you see Ken ramming his leg at Jackie instead of flaring it at him. You see him performing moves that are rough not pretty like he was in Drunken Master 2. And the extent of the object usage in Crime Story is limited to somebody just picking up something and hurling it rather than stopping to create it into a prop to perform.

I didn't anaylze the choreography in the scene because I didn't like it enough. It was vintage Jackie Chan though.

Guns are still used in the film. And about the knives being changed for hand to hand, no...it's very well known that guns are far more difficult to obtain in HK than in the US for example (don't know if it's any different nowadays). Don't call this a cheap excuse btw because if you look at plenty of other HK films even in bank robbers you see people holding out knives with a few guns. Like I said, look at Ringo Lam's City on Fire. That bank robbery had more knives in use than actual guns being used. And that incident was based on a true story mind you.

City on Fire is a horrible example to use because even with the difficulty you say there is to get guns, the movie is all gunplay and there's no martial arts. If someone like Jackie tried to pull the same stuff off he does in Crime Story in a movie like City on Fire he would easily get gunned down. The first half of Crime Story gives that same impression. A simply way of putting it is first half of Crime Story=City on Fire. Second half of it=Police Story. Two different schools of thought, Kirk Wong vs Jackie Chan. Gunplay vs physical combat.

[Guest theportlykicker]

A simply way of putting it is first half of Crime Story=City on Fire. Second half of it=Police Story. Two different schools of thought, Kirk Wong vs Jackie Chan. Gunplay vs physical combat.

It's nowhere near that simple! The second half is nothing like Police Story, both in terms of Jackie's character and the way the action is choreographed and shot. Plus, I doubt the film would have been completely devoid of it's supposed "martial arts" scenes even if Kirk Wong had finished the film. I mean, why else would they have cast Ken Lo and Cheung Fat as triad gangsters?

[Guest jirpy100]

Well, the film is rarely, if ever, mentioned in Jackie's career highlights, so largely the film is surely considered a failure. No one besides us gives a crap for the film, and it will live till eternity as the "could-have-been" film... You guys don't believe us why this is so, that's your problem.

And Running Man, when I was comparing it to an American film I was thinking in the line of Heat, which is a big complement I think...

[Guest The Running Man]

It was based off of real events, so Jackie Chan could have easily continued with the plotline.

And what if that was a section in the story made up by Kirk Wong? Then what?

None of this is hardcore for a Triad movie. Its actually pretty normal. It's more hardcore then what you'd see in a regular JC movie, but Kirk Wong has made movies with far more gruesome scenes.

That's a poor argument. In any film that would be messed up period. Saying that Kirk Wong has done worse things in a film does not hinder that unimportant or less messed up. It seems that your entire measure of this is superficially dependent on the amount of gore, guts, and shock value.

Its not like it was the only gun fight in the first half. There was at least 2 others, and I believe the first one was a different gang entirely. No hand to hand combat in sight. Thats anything but consistent.

Again, you are basing this on superficial arguments. Your idea that the use of guns versus hand to hand is weak. The way the action was filmed was in a consistent style throughout. You are simply concentrating on the use of guns.

I didn't anaylze the choreography in the scene because I didn't like it enough. It was vintage Jackie Chan though.

That is incorrect.

City on Fire is a horrible example to use because even with the difficulty you say there is to get guns, the movie is all gunplay and there's no martial arts.

No it isn't...you "breakdown" of the film is a horrible example:

A simply way of putting it is first half of Crime Story=City on Fire. Second half of it=Police Story. Two different schools of thought, Kirk Wong vs Jackie Chan. Gunplay vs physical combat.

That is simply an incorrect assessment in every way. None of the hand to hand fights in Crime Story resemble Police Story in any way shape or form. If you cannot see this then you do not posses the ability to differentiate styles of action and do not see them in the cinematic form. The design of the action in Crime Story's hand to hand fights are the most unique in Jackie's entire career and, for that matter, almost all of HK film. It is totally different, far more gritty and down to earth style. And that scene near the end is a triumph in my opinion.

Well, the film is rarely, if ever, mentioned in Jackie's career highlights, so largely the film is surely considered a failure. No one besides us gives a crap for the film, and it will live till eternity as the "could-have-been" film... You guys don't believe us why this is so, that's your problem.

Then the sources you read suck and you assessment of the film is as inaccurate as one could possibly imagine.

Jackie Chan won the Taiwanese Golden Horse Award for Best Actor. To put that in perspective for you, that's the Chinese equivalent of an Oscar.

That sound like a failure to you?

And Running Man, when I was comparing it to an American film I was thinking in the line of Heat, which is a big complement I think...

You wrote Alias not Heat. And Heat is an extremely over rated film, but that's a different topic entirely.

[Guest jirpy100]

In the fine tradition of sitting at home with nothing better to do I'm gonna have to reply, especially since you seem to be getting very personal, while we are simply commenting on the film. Seems you are the only person qualified to evaluate films here...

And what if that was a section in the story made up by Kirk Wong? Then what?

It is just a movie, relax, I'm sure both Jackie and Kirk made events up...

That's a poor argument. In any film that would be messed up period. Saying that Kirk Wong has done worse things in a film does not hinder that unimportant or less messed up. It seems that your entire measure of this is superficially dependent on the amount of gore, guts, and shock value.

Only if you look at it superficially as you like to say... it would for instance be very funny in a slapstick comedy. The problem is with emotion, rather the lack there-of. That is what makes the scenes in the first half hit us, not the exclusion of fighting or the use of guns. The frustration as Jackie tries to reach the medical services, and the flashbacks with the psychiatrist... powerful scenes. Shooting what I recall being a nameless enemy does not even register with me.

Again, you are basing this on superficial arguments. Your idea that the use of guns versus hand to hand is weak. The way the action was filmed was in a consistent style throughout. You are simply concentrating on the use of guns.

Yes, but we care not for the superficial elements like camera placement, set design and such which make up the style, rather the true emotions from the actors, which seem to die during the second half.

Then the sources you read suck and you assessment of the film is as inaccurate as one could possibly imagine.

Jackie Chan won the Taiwanese Golden Horse Award for Best Actor. To put that in perspective for you, that's the Chinese equivalent of an Oscar.

That sound like a failure to you?

No, it does not. And as I said, his acting was good, but the film is barely saved by a return to more serious action at the end. Originally I thought the film was pretty okay, but objectively the hand-hand fighting just doesn't fit.

And where do you ever see people list this film along with DM, DM 2, SITES, PS 1 -3, Project A, Dragon's Forever, etc... maybe in somebody's top 20, but not higher as it's not a very even production. I'm not sure what professional journalists wrote at the time of release though.

You wrote Alias not Heat. And Heat is an extremely over rated film, but that's a different topic entirely.

I was referring specifically to the fighting and/or ridiculous interrogation scene. Alias isn't exactly a gritty HK triad story, but an overly-stylized sense-pleasing action drama, which I happen to love. As for Heat, well, don't you just find fault with everything we say?

I'm sure cops in HK kick above the waist on a daily basis! They just don't call it martial arts, just disorderly conduct.

*I promise to rewatch the film this weekend. Maybe I'm being too harsh... maybe.

[Guest The Running Man]

In the fine tradition of sitting at home with nothing better to do I'm gonna have to reply, especially since you seem to be getting very personal, while we are simply commenting on the film.

Excuse me, but no where in my replies did I get personal. If you best stance on discussing something is to discredit someone else by saying that they are insulting and at the same time imply that I have nothing to do and the only reason you are doing so is cause right now you have nothing to do, then you are the one getting personal.

Come at me more open and less insulting and I'll entertain you a reply. Until then the rest of post has gone unread by me.

[Guest Yakuza954]

And what if that was a section in the story made up by Kirk Wong? Then what?

I read it was based off of real events and Bey Logan said the same. Until you provide me with proof that says otherwise, I'll continue to believe it.

That's a poor argument. In any film that would be messed up period. Saying that Kirk Wong has done worse things in a film does not hinder that unimportant or less messed up. It seems that your entire measure of this is superficially dependent on the amount of gore, guts, and shock value.

I brought it up because you mentioned that "a man is burning to death in one scene" to try to show that the second half of Crime Story is not toned down in comparison to the first half. I'm saying its normal for a genre film like this, and that Kirk Wong has made a career of filming movies with scenes even more gruesome than that, while JC has not. It explains why there's a difference in tone from the first part and the second--it's the result of different directors at the helm. And it is not just restricted to gore. Jirpy put it well:

Only if you look at it superficially as you like to say... it would for instance be very funny in a slapstick comedy. The problem is with emotion, rather the lack there-of. That is what makes the scenes in the first half hit us, not the exclusion of fighting or the use of guns. The frustration as Jackie tries to reach the medical services, and the flashbacks with the psychiatrist... powerful scenes. Shooting what I recall being a nameless enemy does not even register with me.

Again, you are basing this on superficial arguments. Your idea that the use of guns versus hand to hand is weak. The way the action was filmed was in a consistent style throughout. You are simply concentrating on the use of guns.

I am concentrating on the use of guns because Jackie has never shown a propensity to film gunfights and his whole career has been marked by hand to hand and martial arts choreography. When Kirk Wong's half of Crime Story is purely gunfights, and when Jackie takes over and his half shifts to unarmed hand to hand combat, I find it normal considering it the preferences of both people and I don't attribute it to any difficulty that HK has for getting guns. I actually find it a weakness in Jackie's part for being unable to adapt to other forms of choreography and for not continuing the film in its original direction.

That is simply an incorrect assessment in every way. None of the hand to hand fights in Crime Story resemble Police Story in any way shape or form. If you cannot see this then you do not posses the ability to differentiate styles of action and do not see them in the cinematic form. The design of the action in Crime Story's hand to hand fights are the most unique in Jackie's entire career and, for that matter, almost all of HK film. It is totally different, far more gritty and down to earth style. And that scene near the end is a triumph in my opinion.

You keep saying Crime Story has great choreography, some of the best, most realistic hand to hand fights etc, but I don't see it, and this is the first time I'm ever reading anyone say anything close to that magnitude. From what i've read about Crime Story, it's remembered more for its plot/acting/and Jackie's role in a darker film than for its fighting, and its acknoweldged that the film varies in certain aspects due to Jackie and Kirk Wong directing different portions of the film. I agree with this, and if that means I "do not posses the ability to differentiate styles of action and do not see them in the cinematic form", then so be it, at least i'm not the only one.

[Guest Chen Zhen]

i really liked the fights in Crime Story, but i wouldnt call it jackie's finest by a long shot. aside from some of the camera placement, the fights didnt feel THAT different than any other good jackie HK fight choreography.

[Guest limubai2000]

Then the sources you read suck and you assessment of the film is as inaccurate as one could possibly imagine.

You starting getting personal right there Running Man, not Jirpy.

You invalidated yourself by discounting someone else's opinion instead of backing up your argument by fact. Maybe if you tried expressing your opinion and leaving it at that we might all get along better? Arguing or discussing facts is one thing but putting ones opinion forth as FACT for and over other people is quite another.

[Guest The Running Man]

I read it was based off of real events and Bey Logan said the same. Until you provide me with proof that says otherwise, I'll continue to believe it.

Your comment is so general here I don't even know what you talking about. Are you talking about the film in general or the subplot?

I'm saying its normal for a genre film like this, and that Kirk Wong has made a career of filming movies with scenes even more gruesome than that, while JC has not.

No. Your argument was to deflate the idea that the second half is in a different tone to the first half. That is not true as I pointed out since Jackie's character is in the world of a Kirk Wong film evidenced by his character's actions. Your point in saying that it's not out of place in a film like this is contradictory to your own point because it essentially proves my point and that's that Jackie did not turn this into "his movie" or "tone it down". Whatever or not films of the same genre have done far more gruesome acts has nothing to do with it.

I am concentrating on the use of guns because Jackie has never shown a propensity to film gunfights and his whole career has been marked by hand to hand and martial arts choreography.

And that's why I argue your point is superficial because all you are concentrating on is the use of guns period. I argue that it is consistent because of the film style and the reality of the scenes are kept even for a Kirk Wong movie. To concentrate it solely just on the use of guns is moot since Kirk Wong has made non-gun action scenes and guns are still used in all of the action scenes in Crime Story. What their usage or importance in the scenes will vary, but they still exist versus your assessment that the second half of the film is Police Story when not once was there a gun fired in the entire last fight of that film.

You keep saying Crime Story has great choreography, some of the best, most realistic hand to hand fights etc, but I don't see it, and this is the first time I'm ever reading anyone say anything close to that magnitude.

If you don't see it, then you don't see it. I do and that's how I feel.

I agree with this, and if that means I "do not posses the ability to differentiate styles of action and do not see them in the cinematic form", then so be it, at least i'm not the only one.

Right. I believe you don't posses that ability. To describe the second half as Police Story-like is just wrong. It's not even close. The only way someone could say that is if they concentrate solely that the fights are hand to hand and not guns. Everything is totally different in it's action design of that film.

However, I will agree that yes, when Jackie did take over there where changes to where the direction of the film was going, but not it's tone. Obviously the psychiatrist subplot was scrapped and who knows what else maybe. The focus became on Jackie's character and I don't think Kirk Wong's version would have been so centered on him throughout most of the movie. But it's tone and style are consistent with the film.

You starting getting personal right there Running Man, not Jirpy.

What you quoted was not getting personal.

You invalidated yourself by discounting someone else's opinion instead of backing up your argument by fact.

Really? I gave no facts? You sure?

Then what do you call the sentence that followed the one you quoted?

And no offense limubai2000, but please save yourself from playing the role of arbitrator alright?

[Guest theportlykicker]

Your point in saying that it's not out of place in a film like this is contradictory to your own point because it essentially proves my point and that's that Jackie did not turn this into "his movie" or "tone it down".

That's exactly what I thought when I read that statement, Running Man. Saying that shooting a burning man is normal for a triad movie and not out of place proves that Jackie didn't in fact lower the tone of the film, because he's using imagery that you would normally see in triad/gangster movies. That contradicts your point, Yakuza or Jirpy (sorry, can't remember who said it), that Jackie lowered the tone when he took over.