Member Iron_Leopard Posted July 13, 2021 Member Share Posted July 13, 2021 After watching more and more Shaws from different Directors I'm starting to wonder if Chang Cheh is slightly overrated? Yes his movies were good but were they really THAT much better than everyone else at the studio? As I delve deeper and deeper into Directors like Lo Wei, Jeong Chang Hwa, Ho Meng Hua, and Gang Cheng I'm starting to think they made better movies. Chang Cheh movies just seem to focus too much on the main characters being badass and less on an overall story. I rewatched Golden Swallow the other day and I'm rewatching Killer Darts right now. I'm enjoying Killer Darts a LOT more. These two movies are a good comparison of what I'm talking about. Golden Swallow (should of been called Silver Roc) is just following Silver Roc around during 80% of the movie just so we can see how epic and badass he is. Killer Darts has one of the best and most captivating stories (for me at least) in all Shaws. The whole thing is just so engaging. Does anyone else kind of see what I'm getting at? Or am I just crazy and Chang Cheh movies are the best of the best? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Chu Liu Hsiang Posted July 13, 2021 Member Share Posted July 13, 2021 I never wonder if he was the best, I like the different directors for their different approaches, and themes. The question if he is overrated depends on your definition of a good movie. In my case, it’s not a film critique’s definition. I IMMENSELY appreciate Chang Cheh’s unique style. Focusing on the main characters creates an undertow which enables the viewer to really relate to them, while sitting warm, safe and comfy in the living room. Getting absorbed into the bloody action, the unavoidable doom. Often the plot feels more like a collage, a mashup of scenes, leading to an unhappy but strangely satisfying Standing-Death for a lost cause. In my book, this is an art form in itself and Chang Chang is its master. His knack to recognize talents, to present “trademarks” like the Iron Triangle, the Venoms, or solo fighting machine Wang Yu, is undeniable. Then there are movies like KING EAGLE which cast doubt on heroism. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member TibetanWhiteCrane Posted July 13, 2021 Member Share Posted July 13, 2021 No he's not overrated and was perfectly capable of creating emotional, weighty drama and characterizations when he wanted to and apply it to an action film framework, One Armed Swordsman, The Invincible Fist, Have Sword Will Travel, Vengeance, The Duel, Blood Brothers, Savage Five etc. are proof of this. But no, he was not the end-all, be-all helmer at Shaws. There were a lot of great directors working there. I think CC's later work, post 1978 is overrated, but still fun. It was what I was first drawn to, and what got me into his stuff. Whereas I then drifted more towards the earlier '67-'71 stuff later on, which I had less intrest in initially. But it's a nice varied filmography even within its genre limitations. Tragic and serious wuxia stuff, gangster rise-and-fall films, delinquent youth movies, Shaolin hero tales, campy venoms flicks and so on. I think he is usually rated just right for his contributions. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Iron_Leopard Posted July 16, 2021 Author Member Share Posted July 16, 2021 On 7/13/2021 at 2:52 AM, TibetanWhiteCrane said: No he's not overrated and was perfectly capable of creating emotional, weighty drama and characterizations when he wanted to and apply it to an action film framework, One Armed Swordsman, The Invincible Fist, Have Sword Will Travel, Vengeance, The Duel, Blood Brothers, Savage Five etc. are proof of this. But no, he was not the end-all, be-all helmer at Shaws. There were a lot of great directors working there. I think CC's later work, post 1978 is overrated, but still fun. It was what I was first drawn to, and what got me into his stuff. Whereas I then drifted more towards the earlier '67-'71 stuff later on, which I had less intrest in initially. But it's a nice varied filmography even within its genre limitations. Tragic and serious wuxia stuff, gangster rise-and-fall films, delinquent youth movies, Shaolin hero tales, campy venoms flicks and so on. I think he is usually rated just right for his contributions. 66-71 is all I watch now from Shaw Brothers. I was listening to a podcast earlier about the best Shaw Brothers movies and the oldest one they discussed was from 1978. I get that most people watch Shaws for the fight scenes and the late 70s is when they really became amazing but for me "Five Deadly Venoms" is not Chang Chehs best movie like everyone says it is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member NoKUNGFUforYU Posted July 16, 2021 Member Share Posted July 16, 2021 He started out great, influenced by the Sam Peckinpah, Sergio Leone, Arthur Penn style, and then he just fell into doing silly, homoerotic movies when he started working with the Venoms as his only crew. He just ran out of ideas. Like I said before, people here love the venoms, but they were money losers for the most part in Asia at the time. And critics savaged him at that point. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member FightingFool Posted July 16, 2021 Member Share Posted July 16, 2021 41 minutes ago, Iron_Leopard said: 66-71 is all I watch now from Shaw Brothers. Storylines concerning that is best era tho extend it to 72. But it`s good to watch movies too after that of course. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member DrNgor Posted July 16, 2021 Member Share Posted July 16, 2021 (edited) 25 minutes ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said: Like I said before, people here love the venoms, but they were money losers for the most part in Asia at the time. And critics savaged him at that point. I don't think the above statement proves anything at all. If people didn't watch them at the time and they were savaged by then-contemporary critics, but today enjoy classic status by many fans, genre forums and websites dedicated to kung fu and HK films, all that means is that the films are the very definition of "Cult Classics". I'm pretty sure the same applies to John Carpenter's The Thing and Ridley Scott's Blade Runner. In the grand scheme of things, I think it's better to have a cult following than to be a huge moneymaker upon release and be forgotten about a decade or two later. Edited July 16, 2021 by DrNgor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member sym8 Posted July 16, 2021 Member Share Posted July 16, 2021 For me I would say no,I personally loved his Venoms movies ,the stories not so great but for me they were entertaining Kung fu movies that looked good.Will he go down as one of the great directors well that maybe down to personal taste but for me the likes of One Armed Swordsman were extremely well made with great direction and story.When you mention Chang Cheh you think of some great classic movies so I would say definitely not overrated. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member NoKUNGFUforYU Posted July 16, 2021 Member Share Posted July 16, 2021 His movies with Chiang, Sheng, Lung and CKT were awesome. But he started to phone it in after Crippled Avengers. I was watching Kid With The Golden Arm and there were some stupefying, just terrible. One of the villains just starts talking to himself out loud while Kuo Chui hides in the bushes. For me, when he just became consumed with acrobatics and guys kipping each other up in the middle of fights, and horrid dialogue, I just stopped going to the great star in SF. But his early stuff was incredible. Vengeance? Christ, that won an award before the Bruce Lee invasion at some International Film Festival. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Killer Meteor Posted July 17, 2021 Member Share Posted July 17, 2021 Chang Cheh is consistently an interesting film-maker even if at times he displays an Ed Woodish clunkiness, especially later on. I think if he was on 2 big films a year only, instead of half a dozen medium to small ones, he could have maintained the quality of the late 60s. His latter day output, especially post-Shaws, is very eccentric. He sort of disapeared more and more into his shell, revealing his personal quirks rather openly - then wondered why all the critics thought his work was homoerotic! Also, he seemed to move away from the Yin/Yang contrast in his leading men. Wang Yu was masculine to contrast with his leading ladies. Ti Lung, Chen Kuan-tai and Chi Kuan-chun were hyper-masculine to contrast against David Chiang and Fu Sheng. And I suppose that was the role of Lo Meng in the Venoms, but increasingly the balance shifts to boys, and girlish boys in the case of Chiang Sheng, horsing around, even if some of them were pushing 30. Jess Franco was sort of going down the same indulgent manic-production route at the same time, just replace Ricky Cheng with Lina Romay. Either way, its cheap topless gore with excessive zooms! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Iron_Leopard Posted July 17, 2021 Author Member Share Posted July 17, 2021 3 hours ago, Killer Meteor said: Chang Cheh is consistently an interesting film-maker even if at times he displays an Ed Woodish clunkiness, especially later on. I think if he was on 2 big films a year only, instead of half a dozen medium to small ones, he could have maintained the quality of the late 60s. His latter day output, especially post-Shaws, is very eccentric. He sort of disapeared more and more into his shell, revealing his personal quirks rather openly - then wondered why all the critics thought his work was homoerotic! Also, he seemed to move away from the Yin/Yang contrast in his leading men. Wang Yu was masculine to contrast with his leading ladies. Ti Lung, Chen Kuan-tai and Chi Kuan-chun were hyper-masculine to contrast against David Chiang and Fu Sheng. And I suppose that was the role of Lo Meng in the Venoms, but increasingly the balance shifts to boys, and girlish boys in the case of Chiang Sheng, horsing around, even if some of them were pushing 30. Jess Franco was sort of going down the same indulgent manic-production route at the same time, just replace Ricky Cheng with Lina Romay. Either way, its cheap topless gore with excessive zooms! Agreed the late 60s was his best work. If he was only doing 2 films a year like you mentioned he could have been almost as good as King Hu. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member FightingFool Posted July 17, 2021 Member Share Posted July 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Iron_Leopard said: Agreed the late 60s was his best work. If he was only doing 2 films a year like you mentioned he could have been almost as good as King Hu. CC made entertaining and interesting movies. Can`t say really same about King Hu. For each his/her own of course but imo he was far "better" than King Hu. His last movie I saw was "swordsman" and that was terrible tho KH cannot be blamed for that coz bad health it was directed by several. Sadly only good thing in flick were some musical scenes. Thore were really good ones actually. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member OpiumKungFuCracker Posted July 17, 2021 Member Share Posted July 17, 2021 Hell no he's not. Are you mistaken for Lo wei? Now that's overrated imo but I'll still watch them cause of Bruce. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Killer Meteor Posted July 17, 2021 Member Share Posted July 17, 2021 1 hour ago, FightingFool said: CC made entertaining and interesting movies. Can`t say really same about King Hu. For each his/her own of course but imo he was far "better" than King Hu. His last movie I saw was "swordsman" and that was terrible tho KH cannot be blamed for that coz bad health it was directed by several. Sadly only good thing in flick were some musical scenes. Thore were really good ones actually. Oh man, I love Swordsman! As I understand, his "bad health" was a cover for "too damn slow" - there's only one shot from his time on the film in the finished thing! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Killer Meteor Posted July 17, 2021 Member Share Posted July 17, 2021 29 minutes ago, OpiumKungFuCracker said: Hell no he's not. Are you mistaken for Lo wei? Now that's overrated imo but I'll still watch them cause of Bruce. Lo Wei always had a terrible reputation as a director, mostly because of the behind-the-scenes feuds he had with Bruce and Jackie Chan. "Overrated" may describe Big Boss and Fist of Fury to some, but it sure as heck doesn't describe the general consensus on the direction! However, since we can now see Lo Wei's 60s wu xia with Shaws, we can see that once upon a time he was a decent director with classy productions. Dragon Swamp and Brothers Five are both excellent. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Iron_Leopard Posted July 17, 2021 Author Member Share Posted July 17, 2021 3 hours ago, FightingFool said: CC made entertaining and interesting movies. Can`t say really same about King Hu. For each his/her own of course but imo he was far "better" than King Hu. His last movie I saw was "swordsman" and that was terrible tho KH cannot be blamed for that coz bad health it was directed by several. Sadly only good thing in flick were some musical scenes. Thore were really good ones actually. What Chang Cheh movie tops "A Touch of Zen"? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member FightingFool Posted July 17, 2021 Member Share Posted July 17, 2021 9 minutes ago, Iron_Leopard said: What Chang Cheh movie tops "A Touch of Zen"? Visually..probably none. And while Zen is good movie, CC made few dozen I will find more interesting plotwise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member ShawAngela Posted July 17, 2021 Member Share Posted July 17, 2021 3 hours ago, Killer Meteor said: Dragon Swamp and Brothers Five are both excellent. And aside wuxias, his Crocodile River is excellent too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member TibetanWhiteCrane Posted July 17, 2021 Member Share Posted July 17, 2021 22 minutes ago, ShawAngela said: And aside wuxias, his Crocodile River is excellent too. Raw Courage, Golden Sword, Brothers Five and Shadow Whip are my faves of his. And he knew how to use Cheng Pei Pei, unlike Cheh, who made her third banana in her own sequel. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Iron_Leopard Posted July 17, 2021 Author Member Share Posted July 17, 2021 10 minutes ago, TibetanWhiteCrane said: Raw Courage, Golden Sword, Brothers Five and Shadow Whip are my faves of his. And he knew how to use Cheng Pei Pei, unlike Cheh, who made her third banana in her own sequel. That might be another reason why I'm not as big a Cheh fan as I use to be. The lack of balance between his male and female cast. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member TibetanWhiteCrane Posted July 17, 2021 Member Share Posted July 17, 2021 Just now, Iron_Leopard said: That might be another reason why I'm not as big a Cheh fan as I use to be. The lack of balance between his male and female cast. I'm fine with it, I just don't look to him for interesting female characters. Although when he pulled it off, like in Have Sword..., Invincible Fist, Savage Five I appreciate it. But it just wasn't his focus and that's cool, it's not required to be, nor does it make me any less of a fan. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member ShawAngela Posted July 17, 2021 Member Share Posted July 17, 2021 On another side, Chang Cheh was also able to give us movies like The Butterfly Chalice. I don't remember if it's in this one that he wrote the lyrics or in another movie, but when I discovered that he was able to also write such beautiful lyrics, I was very amazed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member ShawAngela Posted July 17, 2021 Member Share Posted July 17, 2021 17 minutes ago, TibetanWhiteCrane said: Raw Courage, Golden Sword, Brothers Five and Shadow Whip are my faves of his. And he knew how to use Cheng Pei Pei, unlike Cheh, who made her third banana in her own sequel. Yes, these are also some of my favorite movies ! And I agree regarding the way Chang Cheh left the women aside in his movies, that was very disappointing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member ShawAngela Posted July 17, 2021 Member Share Posted July 17, 2021 10 hours ago, Killer Meteor said: then wondered why all the critics thought his work was homoerotic! I never thought of this when watching his movies, but reading and reading this kind of comments on the forum made me think about it... I just finished to watch the blu ray of Last hurrah for chivalry...Then, what do you all think of the relation between Damian Lau and Wei Pai ? The ending of the movie is so much similar to the one in The duel between David Chiang and Ti Lung ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member TibetanWhiteCrane Posted July 17, 2021 Member Share Posted July 17, 2021 5 minutes ago, ShawAngela said: I never thought of this when watching his movies, but reading and reading this kind of comments on the forum made me think about it... I just finished to watch the blu ray of Last hurrah for chivalry...Then, what do you all think of the relation between Damian Lau and Wei Pai ? The ending of the movie is so much similar to the one in The duel between David Chiang and Ti Lung ! While influenced by mentor, Cheh, Woo was genuinly interested in the exploration of brotherhood and male bonding, whereas Cheh, also worked with those themes, but the homoeroticism often spilled over from subtext into just text. And that's fine, it just annoys me when people dismiss this. Of course it's there, it's not even subtle most of the time, and more towards the later films where he just didn't care to try and hide it anymore. I mean, in Magnificent Ruffians the venoms are offered concubines or something, and their response is tantamount to "giiiirls, gross!!! Upon which they all run into the hot tub and play with each other in the water, butt naked. Ok, that was a tad exaggerated, but it's close. And yes, Last Hurrah is very much Woo's attempt at a Shiny Shaw swordplay flick, and borrowing this and that while still making it his own. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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