The Protector (1985)- Who was the Fight Choreographer for that film?

[Josh Baker]

Guys I need your help. I remember reading the credits for The Protector on Imdb about seven years ago and I remember explicitly a guy who was listed as the fight choreographer for the film, who was also credited as one of the fight choreographers on Star Trek: The Original Series, and his name today isnt there anymore. I am almost positive that I read this back in 2013, because I remember being etched in my mind the absurdity that Glickenhaus would choose this guy over Jackie Chan to do the fight choreography, and I wanted to make a joke in my upcoming review about how he might've choreographed the infamous Kirk vs Gorn fight from that episode.

Failing this, I would like to know who the fight choreographer was on the Protector, because I'm not getting any clear answers off Imdb there either; they list plenty of stuntmen but no fight choreographers.

Thank you everyone! ✌

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

Josh, try using HKMDB, not IMDB.

http://hkmdb.com/db/movies/view.mhtml?id=6706&display_set=eng

Both Wallace and Glickenhaus were from a different world then Jackie, and both sides had legitimate beefs. Bill Wallace would kill Jackie in a real fight, sorry fans. Wallace was a Judo black belt, Collegiate wrestling coach, point fighter and full contact fighter. He was MMA before MMA existed. He had rightful contempt of Jackie's Wing Chun and other hand techniques, as they wouldn't work in a real fight. But it's a movie, so who gives a shit!?

https://books.google.com/books?id=JNoDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=bill+wallace+jackie+chan+june+1996&source=bl&ots=8Xzprl5DLS&sig=ACfU3U0b8HkC4tB1oNRAVxI4vWk3Lo2yOA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjovOWs7t_rAhUWsp4KHfLmBUg4ChDoATAFegQIAxAB#v=onepage&q=bill wallace jackie chan june 1996&f=false

Glickenhaus was reluctant to do undercranking, which Jackie felt was necessary. Kind of makes Jackie sound slower then he wants you to believe, but if everyone was throwing full speed punches at peoples faces, yikes! Again, it's a movie. I liked one Glickenhaus movie, (I doubt it's held up) the Exterminator, but the rest of his movies are garbage. Especially the Soldier, which has to be one of the most NeoCon, Zionist (and basically Anti American, if you can believe it) movies I've seen in a long time. Just dreadful. 

From Vincent Canby

"After watching James Glickenhaus's new melodrama, ''The Soldier,'' and other films like it, you somehow get the feeling that what the ''free world'' really needs are a few more dictators who'll not only make airplanes run on time but will also drop nuclear bombs when necessary."

 

Of course Glickenhaus is rich as hell, so I doubt he's losing any sleep over what a few people think of his old movies...$200,000,000 net worth.

https://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-businessmen/producers/james-glickenhaus-net-worth/#:~:text=James Glickenhaus Net Worth%3A James,New York in July 1950.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

From an interview with Glickenhaus-

Jackie Chan was not a popular star in the US when you cast him for the role – he even did not speak English at the time, is this correct?

The problem was this. You know, Jackie was basically like a cash machine to Golden Harvest, they just wanted him to make these chop-sockey, Asian films and comedies and he’d shoot three at a time, and they’d ship him off to Japan where he was allegedly a pop star, this whole life they made for him that was ridiculous, you know he’s looking for the right girl….hell he was married and had a kid at the time. It was just awful. And then Chan came up with me, because evidently when he released his first breakout in the U.S., The Big Brawl, which didn’t do that well, it came out the weekend The Exterminator came out, and it creamed his film. So he wanted to work with me.

And here’s the thing, I think Jackie just assumed I was going to be just like everyone else in his life, which was, Yes Sir, what do you want done, you’re the best, let’s all go out and party. Which I had no interest in, and I had no interest in making another Hong Kong Jackie Chan film. So I told them that, and they said no problem, he wants to make a U.S. film that will work in the U.S., and I got total creative control, final cut, wrote the script, everything. They paid for it all. It did become obvious that they had misled me on how much English he spoke, he really did not speak much English. He could kind of understand you, but he could not act with an English speaking actor, ad lib off them, anything. So that was very tough for Danny Aiello, he sort of had to parrot some stuff. And also they were doing all these promotions with him, to promote his Chinese films, they were sending him to Japan to sing pop songs while we were shooting, we had to flip the schedule so we were actually shooting day for night, it was a bit of a pain in the ass!

But I didn’t take it personally, and it was really interesting shooting and working in Hong Kong. And I had a really great relationship with Golden Harvest, they actually gave me a pretty big bonus when we were done with the film, they were pretty happy with it, and for putting up with them and everything.

Many fans criticise the use of his martial arts skills in this movie. Why did you not use more fighting scenes for this one?

There was a lot of martial arts, I just got bored with how much there was and so, and I also wanted to make martial arts sequences that I frankly thought were realistic, not this Hong Kong opera/ballet stuff that had been around.  I enjoyed martial arts, but you know I was really a fan of Bruce Lee, you know who was really different from Jackie. Bruce Lee was a real martial artist, Jackie Chan was not a martial artist, he could not do martial arts. I mean he needed a body guard, not to really protect him but because every martial artist in the world wanted to pick a fight with him to show him they could beat him…which they could do! His idea of martial arts, I just thought was stupid, a joke. When the film was done, for the Asian audience who obviously wanted more fights, more martial arts scenes, Golden Harvest came to me and said, we’re really sorry, but he wants to expand the fight scenes, do you want to come expand them? I had final cut, final decision on the film, and I said, look knock yourselves out for the Asian audiences, but it can’t be shown anywhere else, and they agreed. They actually shot some additional footage, Chan directed, and sent me a copy of it, and I was like, hey if that’s what they want….good luck.

The film was shot in Hong Kong and in New York. Did you direct the production on both sides? How was it to work in Hong Kong?

I loved Hong Kong, I mean, I almost got off the bus there. It was visually incredible – you remember, the sights, the food, the sweating, the architecture, and you know, you go outside to a sweat bath, and the food, and the weather, and the hotels had rooms that overlooked the airport runway, shook the building. So it was a trip. But having said that, I didn’t mind going home…

I always think of a pure hard boiled detective story when it comes to The Protector. Why did you choose not to cast Jackie Chan in a humorous role?

I just didn’t want to make another ha-ha, chop-sockey, Jackie Chan film. And if you really want to see, left to his own devices, how silly his films can be, I mean look at the last extravaganza, Zodiac, or something, I don’t think it was distributed in the U.S., he spent millions and the film’s fucking unwatchable…

[sifu iron perm]

He ( James Glickenhaus ) certainly did pull no punches (pun intended) lol

 

 

[SpartainX]

2 hours ago, sifu iron perm said:

He ( James Glickenhaus ) certainly did pull no punches (pun intended) lol

The hack director sure doesn't but Jackie got the last laugh.

 

And yes i don't like him very much.

2 hours ago, sifu iron perm said:

 

 

 

[SpartainX]

@Josh Baker I'm sorry it doesn't seem like you're getting your question answered. I wish i knew but whoever did  the action must'ev decided to distance himself away from the flim because?   

Glickenhaus   is poison to everything he touches.  

 

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

29 minutes ago, SpartainX said:

@Josh Baker I'm sorry it doesn't seem like you're getting your question answered. I wish i knew but whoever did  the action must'ev decided to distance himself away from the flim because?   

Glickenhaus   is poison to everything he touches.  

 

If you look at the HKMDB they list a bunch of choreographers.

[SpartainX]

17 minutes ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

If you look at the HKMDB they list a bunch of choreographers.

 

19 minutes ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

If you look at the HKMDB they list a bunch of choreographers.

Yeah, I get that.  But what Josh is looking for is the american choreographer who worked on some of the fights from the US Cut.

 

It can't be found for some reason.  I just wished i knew who it was myself who it was too.  HKMDB only has the listing for the HK Cut.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

1 hour ago, SpartainX said:

 

Yeah, I get that.  But what Josh is looking for is the american choreographer who worked on some of the fights from the US Cut.

 

It can't be found for some reason.  I just wished i knew who it was myself who it was too.  HKMDB only has the listing for the HK Cut.

According to one interview Glickenhaus insisted on directing the fights himself. Yikes!!

[Josh Baker]

4 hours ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

According to one interview Glickenhaus insisted on directing the fights himself. Yikes!!

Ugh. To be fair Glickenhaus came across as less arrogant and entitled in that interview than I thought he would, but the suggestion that Jackie couldn't fight/wasnt a real martial artist is just laughable. He had had extensive training in Taekwondo, Hapkido and Bak Mei Kung Fu up to this point. 

Even if Jackie couldn't fight, does Glickenhaus proport to know more about martial arts than Jackie does? The idea of Glickenhaus directing Jackie to do a roundhouse kick or side kick is just laughable to me. 

Btw, thank you both for your help, very much appreciated, I will look on HKMdb later ✌

[SpartainX]

10 hours ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

According to one interview Glickenhaus insisted on directing the fights himself. Yikes!!

The idea of him trying to direct a fight  makes me gag.  The fool couldn't direct a fight scene with kittens in a paper bag if his life depended upon  it.  But Jackie could tho that's how great  he is.

5 hours ago, Josh Baker said:

Ugh. To be fair Glickenhaus came across as less arrogant and entitled in that interview than I thought he would, but the suggestion that Jackie couldn't fight/wasnt a real martial artist is just laughable. He had had extensive training in Taekwondo, Hapkido and Bak Mei Kung Fu up to this point. 

Even if Jackie couldn't fight, does Glickenhaus proport to know more about martial arts than Jackie does? The idea of Glickenhaus directing Jackie to do a roundhouse kick or side kick is just laughable to me. 

Btw, thank you both for your help, very much appreciated, I will look on HKMdb later ✌

Yeah in his book he said Jackie couldn't speak english.  He couldn't act.  He wasn't a real Martial Artist that he had a bodyguard on set with him.  He felt like Raymond Chow how lied to him about Jackie being a big star in HK /Popstar.  Jackie's english may'ev not been perfect at the time but he can speak it.  The bodyguard wasnt there to fight other Martial Artist but to pervent Jackie's shall we say crazed fans who throw themselves at him like to try to kill themselves or least try right infront of him.  Yes, Jackie had some problems with people in the west tried to mess with him while he was promoting Battle Creek Brawl being tested if he was  legit or not.     

 

 

Jackie May'ev not invented his own style.  He may'ev not killed anyone while he was in the army or been a tournment champion.  Jackie in his own right had trained  and is a Martial Artist in his own right.   He had trained in Hung Gar Kung Fu under his late Father in an early age before training  in the Peking Opera School trainning in Northern Style Kung Fu under Sifu Jim Yuen.  Jackie trained in Bak Mei.  Taekwondo.  Hapkido.  Judo.   Karate.  Praying Mantis.  Boxing.  Kickboxing.  Wing Chun.   Jackie maynot hold any black belts  other than Hapkido  whom trained under  Jin Pal Kim. 

 

The idea of Glickenhaus directing anything Martial Art related is so  laughable.  Beliving he can do better than Jackie  cracks me up even more that i roll into the ground calling him  a moron.  

Edited September 11, 2020 by SpartainX
fix spelling errors

[OpiumKungFuCracker]

Jesus lord, this Glickenhaus is a huge asshole. Show some damn respect to Jackie. He did the Tuxedo for christsakes!!!  By the way I love the Protector, I think it's underrated and I really love the Drug Lab scene if you know what I mean? 

[Josh Baker]

29 minutes ago, OpiumKungFuCracker said:

Jesus lord, this Glickenhaus is a huge asshole. Show some damn respect to Jackie. He did the Tuxedo for christsakes!!!  By the way I love the Protector, I think it's underrated and I really love the Drug Lab scene if you know what I mean? 

Hmm yeah I think I do😂 if it wasnt so gratuitous i would too- I almost started laughing at the close up of the womans boobs as she puts the cocaine in the bag- its so sleazy man🤢

[Josh Baker]

Btw I've looked on HKMdb- just lists Jackie's Stunt Team as the fight choreographers- I find this very hard to believe- there's just no way Jackie would let them choreograph him in the way they do

[SpartainX]

2 hours ago, Josh Baker said:

Hmm yeah I think I do😂 if it wasnt so gratuitous i would too- I almost started laughing at the close up of the womans boobs as she puts the cocaine in the bag- its so sleazy man🤢

Now you fully understand why i hate this man with a passion.  He's a racist douchebag  wannabe director.

 

And that end song tho.   Now i know how Big Mike feels being haunted by that song.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

I asked Toby Russell, he said that Jackie probably set up the punches and kicks and Glickenhaus told him what he wanted and "directed" the fights. Wallace said Jackie was injured so he couldn't do some of the stuff he would usually do but also, and this isn't the first time, Jackie had issues dealing with punches and kicks that were not screen fighting style. Wallace didn't leave out his punches (most boxers don't, or they would get knocked out) and I am sure there was an east meets west pissing match. US fighters for the most part didn't think much of Kung Fu, and there were almost zero Kung Fu fighters in fighting competition and those that were cross trained in Karate and used Karate style moves. There were a few tough African American tournament fighters (Tayari Casel comes to mind) that used Kung Fu, but even then they were adding Capoeira, etc. Wallace was world Champion, Jackie was an actor. I was at a video store in 1986 and I mentioned that the Protector had some decent action. The cute blonde girl behind the counter was less than impressed with the trademark Jackie movies with chairs, etc. The real issue is that his style works great with comedy. That's why Brett Ratner, as gross as he is, did great work with his Rush Hour series. I honestly don't think there was a way for these two to make a good movie together. Glickenhaus wanted to do some vigilante cop stuff, Jackie was killing it with Comedy.

 

[SpartainX]

57 minutes ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

I asked Toby Russell, he said that Jackie probably set up the punches and kicks and Glickenhaus told him what he wanted and "directed" the fights. Wallace said Jackie was injured so he couldn't do some of the stuff he would usually do but also, and this isn't the first time, Jackie had issues dealing with punches and kicks that were not screen fighting style. Wallace didn't leave out his punches (most boxers don't, or they would get knocked out) and I am sure there was an east meets west pissing match. US fighters for the most part didn't think much of Kung Fu, and there were almost zero Kung Fu fighters in fighting competition and those that were cross trained in Karate and used Karate style moves. There were a few tough African American tournament fighters (Tayari Casel comes to mind) that used Kung Fu, but even then they were adding Capoeira, etc. Wallace was world Champion, Jackie was an actor. I was at a video store in 1986 and I mentioned that the Protector had some decent action. The cute blonde girl behind the counter was less than impressed with the trademark Jackie movies with chairs, etc. The real issue is that his style works great with comedy. That's why Brett Ratner, as gross as he is, did great work with his Rush Hour series. I honestly don't think there was a way for these two to make a good movie together. Glickenhaus wanted to do some vigilante cop stuff, Jackie was killing it with Comedy.

You're right, as much as i'm not the biggest  fan of Ratner. He did what Robert Clouse and  James Glickenhaus didn't  do for Jackie is to break him into the American Market you have to give him that he did something  nobody could do.   The Glickenhaus/Chan duo was doomed from the very start as Glickenhaus didn't fully get Jackie at all.   Mind you in the early 80's they had Chuck Norris, Sho Kosugi,  Sly and Arnie. etc  this was two /three years before JCVD /Seagal got a chance to shine in Hollywood. the whole idea of HK Action seemed very odd to some viewers in the states.  Jackie's action during the 80's in america may'ev not been suited at that time due to different era of action.    My late fiancée wasnt the biggest fan of the American cut of The Protector due myself and her were spoiled seeing flims like Wheels on Meals, Heart of Dragon and Dragons Forever.   Her and i didn't like the american cut of The Protector felt like  the fight between Bill Wallace and Jackie wasn't as good as  Jackie Vs Benny in Wheels on Meals.   I have alot respect for Bill as a Martial Artist as i understand HK style /HK flims: Is not everybody but in the HK Cut Bill looked better than he did in the American cut but what's funny about Bill being in the flim is that Glickenhaus said his performance was so bad that he dubbed his voice.  So neither the american cut or the HK cut doesn't his real voice, as i remember seeing Bill in two flims called "A Force of One"  and "LA Street Fighters"   Only flims i've seen him in outside of The Protector and his real voice is heard in both flims i just mentioned.  I was like well.... what did you expect Bill is a kickboxing champion not a shakespearean actor.  

 

 

[Josh Baker]

3 hours ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

I asked Toby Russell, he said that Jackie probably set up the punches and kicks and Glickenhaus told him what he wanted and "directed" the fights. Wallace said Jackie was injured so he couldn't do some of the stuff he would usually do but also, and this isn't the first time, Jackie had issues dealing with punches and kicks that were not screen fighting style. Wallace didn't leave out his punches (most boxers don't, or they would get knocked out) and I am sure there was an east meets west pissing match. US fighters for the most part didn't think much of Kung Fu, and there were almost zero Kung Fu fighters in fighting competition and those that were cross trained in Karate and used Karate style moves. There were a few tough African American tournament fighters (Tayari Casel comes to mind) that used Kung Fu, but even then they were adding Capoeira, etc. Wallace was world Champion, Jackie was an actor. I was at a video store in 1986 and I mentioned that the Protector had some decent action. The cute blonde girl behind the counter was less than impressed with the trademark Jackie movies with chairs, etc. The real issue is that his style works great with comedy. That's why Brett Ratner, as gross as he is, did great work with his Rush Hour series. I honestly don't think there was a way for these two to make a good movie together. Glickenhaus wanted to do some vigilante cop stuff, Jackie was killing it with Comedy.

 

Thank you for the information. I wonder why if Wallace didn't think much of Kung Fu why he agreed to do the new footage with Jackie for the HK version. Money I guess lol; I didn't realise Jackie was injured during filming, that lets Glickenhaus off slightly as to why Jackie's fighting is so watered down in his version of the film. I still find it hard to believe Jackie would choreograph such slow and predictable movements, but if thats what happened, then that's what happened.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

39 minutes ago, Josh Baker said:

Thank you for the information. I wonder why if Wallace didn't think much of Kung Fu why he agreed to do the new footage with Jackie for the HK version. Money I guess lol; I didn't realise Jackie was injured during filming, that lets Glickenhaus off slightly as to why Jackie's fighting is so watered down in his version of the film. I still find it hard to believe Jackie would choreograph such slow and predictable movements, but if thats what happened, then that's what happened.

All the action takes place in a warehouse, probably an extra day or two film for decent $$$. Being a kickboxer didn't pay all that great. He was much more into doing seminars and training with fighters. Wallace was not a kata guy. I understand he got his black belt incredibly fast (And believe it or not, originally Karate was supposed to be an easy system to learn, then you just built yourself up- not tons of forms, etc) and did little, if any, Kata.

[SpartainX]

4 hours ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

All the action takes place in a warehouse, probably an extra day or two film for decent $$$. Being a kickboxer didn't pay all that great. He was much more into doing seminars and training with fighters. Wallace was not a kata guy. I understand he got his black belt incredibly fast (And believe it or not, originally Karate was supposed to be an easy system to learn, then you just built yourself up- not tons of forms, etc) and did little, if any, Kata.

Explains why Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis and Pat Johnson. ETC advanced so quickly in Karate.

[Killer Meteor]

Makes mental note to take up Karate in future...

[Mike Leeder]

The Protector isn't ranked as Best Experience by Jackie or any of his team, but if not for his experiences on The Protector we wouldnt have got Police Story

I don't recall anyone ever mentioning any American fight choreographer working on it, the only "american' action scene was the boat chase, the gun fight in the bar was in HK and you can see Armour of Gods Ken Boyle and Paulo Tocha from Bloodsport as patrons

I think on the US edit, Jackie and his team under contract had to play nice with giving James approval over angles and edits, hence Jackie reshooting the ending with Bill Wallace and adding the Lee Hai-sheng fight etc

I think James has a selective memory to say the least, as when Impact interviewed him back in 92/93 he had no idea of there being an alternate edit and reshoots , claiming they wouldn't have been allowed.... and his comments ref Jackie are pretty mental, so you think he wasn't a martial artist and GH had fooled him Jackie into thinking he was a big star...yeah i guess paying him lots of money, producing and releasing his movies to huge box office in Asia was all part of the illusion?

Ref Bill Wallace, i think he just gel with Jackie and the HK way of doing things, he's often spoken that anyone could have done what he did, and i think if you compare what he got to do to Richard Norton etc,. it isnt the best showcase for Wallace

[sym8]

12 hours ago, Josh Baker said:

I wonder why if Wallace didn't think much of Kung Fu why he agreed to do the new footage with Jackie

I read somewhere that Jackie and Golden Harvest were very grateful to Bill for coming back to film extra scenes(they asked Danny but he had other commitments)and Bill Wallace had said he was pleased to do so and I think we were better off for it,Jackies version is more entertaining and the film seems to flow better.

[Josh Baker]

12 minutes ago, sym8 said:

I read somewhere that Jackie and Golden Harvest were very grateful to Bill for coming back to film extra scenes(they asked Danny but he had other commitments)and Bill Wallace had said he was pleased to do so and I think we were better off for it,Jackies version is more entertaining and the film seems to flow better.

I completely agree

[Josh Baker]

Its funny, I never realized how involved Jackie's Stunt Team were. I always assumed they used other people coz the stunt men don't look like Jackie's usual guys- I didn't spot Mars, Chin Kar Lok, Benny Lai etc in the American edit for example- only the HK version. 

I remember in the massage parlor fight a stuntman with a mustache doing a mid air spin that looked like a facsimile of the one that the JC stunt team would do on a regular basis- that originally confirmed in my mind that it was a different stunt-team.

If it was the JC stunt-team, why would they agree to choreograph themselves in such a half-hearted way? It all seems to not add up to me lol. 🤷‍♀️