Why did Golden Harvest survive but Shaw Brothers didn't?

[ukrevrend]

18 hours ago, paimeifist said:

Also, Chinese Super Ninjas is a horrible movie.

No...No...  Classic SB!!!

Bless

[Iron_Leopard]

On 7/19/2020 at 10:51 PM, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

https://www.lcsd.gov.hk/CE/CulturalService/HKFA/documents/2005525/2007344/4-1-55_foreword_e.pdf

After 1975 hardly any martial arts films would crack the top ten. Most were comedies, crime films, erotica and dramas. I really believe that Sammo and Jackie saw Michael Hui's success and went down that route. I don't think they came up with comedy on their own. I think Lau Kar Liang wanted to go down that route as well, but he started to insert himself into those films and well, he was no Mel Brooks. He was respected, but old hat. And Wong Yu had all of Fu Sheng's mugging and none of his martial arts talent or charisma. He had Kara Hui, at least.

 

*

I don't care for the comedy in Lau Kar Leung films. It's just annoying and distracting to me.

Was Fu Sheng or Jackie Chan going the comedy route first?

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

2 hours ago, Iron_Leopard said:

I don't care for the comedy in Lau Kar Leung films. It's just annoying and distracting to me.

Was Fu Sheng or Jackie Chan going the comedy route first?

Sheng played smart asses sooner then Jackie, you know, the impish, hard to teach student, but Snake in the Eagle's Shadow took it to a new level. Fu Sheng was a martial artist, but he wasn't a trained gymnast, acrobat like Jackie and the Yuen crew. Having guys like Chang Cheh and Leung handle most of your opportunities didn't help. Like I said though, being around Michael Hui and John Woo, Chan and Hung saw where the future was, comedy. If you watch some of Hong Kong Playboys, as dreadful as it can be, you can see that Sheng would have easily fit into the modern comedy with some action that was becoming very trendy. Who knows how it would have worked out had Sheng not died in that accident. The poor guy was an alcoholic, so he would have had that to contend with. I just don't think they had the comedy talent to take that next level. Wong Yu was supposedly a pain in the ass Sheng wanna be, and we can see that his opportunities dried up. Can you think of any of the other Shaw Brothers stars that could have been funny? Maybe David Chiang?

PS, one thing that Jackie could do well was those weird exercises such as the upside down situps. And he was ripped. I suppose the Venoms could have done some of that stuff, but they didn't have the humor or the looks that Chan had, or the skills of Yuen Biao or the Choreography of Sammo Hung.

Edited July 22, 2020 by NoKUNGFUforYU

[sifu iron perm]

comedy in shaw bros doesn't do it for me..it's dry!

 

 

 

[Killer Meteor]

6 hours ago, Iron_Leopard said:

I don't care for the comedy in Lau Kar Leung films. It's just annoying and distracting to me.

Was Fu Sheng or Jackie Chan going the comedy route first?

Lau pre-dated Jackie with Spritual Boxer and He Has Nothing But Kung Fu. But Wong Yue's character was more of a con-man than a serious martial artisit.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

8 hours ago, Killer Meteor said:

Lau pre-dated Jackie with Spritual Boxer and He Has Nothing But Kung Fu. But Wong Yue's character was more of a con-man than a serious martial artisit.

Wong Yu wasn't on the level of Fu Sheng or Jackie in the martial arts department. Also, he was annoying. He wasn't regarded as a superstar as the other two, but a poor imitation, though he had some success here and there and Spiritual Boxer was the only martial arts film to crack the top ten in 1975.  If you read this article, what is telling is the fact that once Shaw's went to TV many stars were left out in the cold, having been branded as old hat I guess. http://www.hkcinemagic.com/en/people.asp?id=715

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

By the way, there were martial arts comedies in the Wu Xia realm before Jackie, dating back to Cathay's Mad Mad Sword and Smiling Swordsman in 1969 and 1968, as well as Shaw Brothers's King Cat in 1967, just as there were Vampire films way before Mr. Vampire, such as this http://hkmdb.com/db/movies/view.mhtml?id=2906&display_set=eng. Cathay had the Devil's Skin, a glossy, gory color film in 1970. The differentiation is that Jackie's movies and Sammo's productions became internationally known, while these films were fairly local.  Here is a local HK horror comedy that has the undead. Just found it, and I doubt it is anywhere as funny as Mr Vampire, but here it is. As they say, dying is easy, comedy is hard....

 

[panku]

13 hours ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

Can you think of any of the other Shaw Brothers stars that could have been funny?

I know he was not as big of a star as the ones mentioned, but Lo Meng had great comedic timing. He seemed to be doing more comedic roles in later Shaw Brothers years, but I've only seen a few of his post Shaw films though, so I don't know if he continued with that or not.

I agree, Wong Yu gets tiresome. There are a few films I want to watch again, but don't because of him. Some early films he is ok in though.

One of the earliest all out kung fu slapstick comedies I remember seeing was the The Crazy Acrobat from 1974 with Judy Lee. I'm not a fan of that kind of Three Stooges stuff, but Judy was still good in it.

[Killer Meteor]

Way of the Dragon is mostly silly slapstick up until the finale...and even that has the cat as referee.

[panku]

3 minutes ago, Killer Meteor said:

Way of the Dragon is mostly silly slapstick up until the finale...and even that has the cat as referee.

You're right. I didn't even think of that film. I guess I think of Way of the Dragon as being separate from the rest since it is a much higher quality film.

[paimeifist]

20 minutes ago, panku said:

I know he was not as big of a star as the ones mentioned, but Lo Meng had great comedic timing. He seemed to be doing more comedic roles in later Shaw Brothers years, but I've only seen a few of his post Shaw films though, so I don't know if he continued with that or not.

 

I agree with this 100%.

 

In Shaolin Rescuers the interplay and slapstick comedy between Lo Meng and Kwok Choi is legitimately funny, in a way that most kung fu comedies are not.

Edited July 22, 2020 by paimeifist

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

Believe it or not, Lo Meng did cross my mind. Definitely did not take himself too seriously. Also adept at serious martial arts. He once said that the reason Kung Fu does not work is that the moves are really supposed to be much shorter and close in, like western boxing. People do the wide movements like in the forms and that is why it is easy to defend against, etc.

[TheKungFuRobber]

On 7/20/2020 at 11:31 PM, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

I have been burned out on watching B grade martial arts flicks lately, but last night I threw on the Blu Ray of Snake in The Eagle's shadow before bed, I only intended to watch a few minutes. I wound up watching an hour and missed out on some much needed sleep. As much as I despise modern day Jackie as a sellout, etc, you can really see how engaging this film is even to this day. No one is looking for revenge, and really it is the story of two lonely people making friends. Sam the Seed tells him never to call him Sifu and if he is fighting, don't get involved. These are at odds with most traditional films where the old fart would demand his whole family die to avenge him, and asks the young fellow to grovel at his knees. No, they just look out for each other. At the end good triumphs over evil and not a mention of the Manchu's, Japanese or 100 years of shame. I can see why at the time it smoked all of the Shaw Brothers films of the time in the Kung fu department.

Exactly, truth is that Seasonal were revolutionaries in the genre. They made movies that saw past the dated nonsense of the old genre and made films that were a feast for the mind and entertaining. Ninja in the Dragon's Den, Legend of a Fighter, Drunken Master, Snuff Bottle Connection and Snake in the Eagle's Shadow are all all time classics because they were engaging, had likable and relatable characters and were empowering without the violence directed towards some collective cause of enemy. Ninja in the Dragon's Den and Legend of a Fighter exposed the anti-Japanese nature of Hong Kong cinema and tried to steer away from it with characters being torn between their own differences and what makes them alike. Even No Retreat No Surrender isn't such a bad movie, even if the dialogue is a bit off at times, the plot is empowering and feels more or less like an adaptation of the Seasonal recipes for an American audience. It's still a well beloved film in the eyes of a lot of people. The Yuen clan wanted to make fresh movies and put the cliches to bed. Even Tower of Death did a good job of putting the Bruceploitation genre to bed, it starts off as a Bruce Lee movie then morphs into martial arts comedy by the end with our new character replacing Billy Lo with what is probably one of the best final 20 minutes in a Ng See Yuen film.

Edited July 22, 2020 by TheKungFuRobber

[Killer Meteor]

On 7/20/2020 at 11:31 PM, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

I have been burned out on watching B grade martial arts flicks lately, but last night I threw on the Blu Ray of Snake in The Eagle's shadow before bed, I only intended to watch a few minutes. I wound up watching an hour and missed out on some much needed sleep. As much as I despise modern day Jackie as a sellout, etc, you can really see how engaging this film is even to this day. No one is looking for revenge, and really it is the story of two lonely people making friends. Sam the Seed tells him never to call him Sifu and if he is fighting, don't get involved. These are at odds with most traditional films where the old fart would demand his whole family die to avenge him, and asks the young fellow to grovel at his knees. No, they just look out for each other. At the end good triumphs over evil and not a mention of the Manchu's, Japanese or 100 years of shame. I can see why at the time it smoked all of the Shaw Brothers films of the time in the Kung fu department.

SITES is a good example for this thread, as Shaws (previously the trendsetter) ripped it off wholesale with the Yuen Tak flick THE MASTER.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

1 minute ago, Killer Meteor said:

SITES is a good example for this thread, as Shaws (previously the trendsetter) ripped it off wholesale with the Yuen Tak flick THE MASTER.

They just couldn't find a guy that had what Jackie had at the time. Yuen Tak, too effeminate, Billy Chong, too macho, etc. Billy Chong was just not that big of a star. I asked an HK critic about him who is my age, and he never even heard of him.

 

[Iron Head Rat]

10 hours ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

They just couldn't find a guy that had what Jackie had at the time. Yuen Tak, too effeminate, Billy Chong, too macho, etc. Billy Chong was just not that big of a star. I asked an HK critic about him who is my age, and he never even heard of him.

 

I wonder why? Cos Billy Chong was good..

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

14 hours ago, Iron Head Rat said:

I wonder why? Cos Billy Chong was good..

He did not tap into the zeitgeist of what was going on in HK at the time. Also, he was basically a Jackie Chan ripoff, and there were a ton of them, all at once. I mean, can you imagine him doing something ground breaking like Project A? Winners and Sinners?

At the same time you have Jackie, Yuen Biao, Sammo and crew all helping each other out and why go see a knockoff when you can see the real thing? Even with a few laughs these kind of films were played out over there. How many movies can you watch of Simon Yuen, possibly wandering from set to set, day after day wearing the same outfit and make up and teaching one preening knucklehead after another? 

And just so you know, I really liked Fistful of Talons, but even that could not put him over. 

Edited August 3, 2020 by NoKUNGFUforYU

[ShaolinMapache]

I think GH gave more autonomy to their directors. There's a great feature on the sixth disc of the new Bruce Lee Criterion set where Andre Morgan gives his two cents on this. He talks about how directors are given a trial and if their movie makes money they are given their own sub-studio to work with and as long as the films are profitable they were left alone. This kind of thing didn't happen at Shaw Brothers. He said that Shaw Brothers never changed their formula either but Golden harvest was willing to take risks and try new things. Wuxia swordplay fell out of style in favor of more hand to hand combat and even gun fu a bit later but Shaws were too late to the game with new innovations.

[Iron Head Rat]

10 hours ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

He did not tap into the zeitgeist of what was going on in HK at the time. Also, he was basically a Jackie Chan ripoff, and there were a ton of them, all at once. I mean, can you imagine him doing something ground breaking like Project A? Winners and Sinners?

At the same time you have Jackie, Yuen Biao, Sammo and crew all helping each other out and why go see a knockoff when you can see the real thing? Even with a few laughs these kind of films were played out over there. How many movies can you watch of Simon Yuen, possibly wandering from set to set, day after day wearing the same outfit and make up and teaching one preening knucklehead after another? 

And just so you know, I really liked Fistful of Talons, but even that could not put him over. 

Shame cos the guy could act had style & the talent. Seems more about the connections/friends & exposure. A lilttle imagination from someone(director), didn't need to continue down a supposedly Chansploitation route.

[Killer Meteor]

On 8/4/2020 at 4:31 AM, ShaolinMapache said:

I think GH gave more autonomy to their directors. There's a great feature on the sixth disc of the new Bruce Lee Criterion set where Andre Morgan gives his two cents on this. He talks about how directors are given a trial and if their movie makes money they are given their own sub-studio to work with and as long as the films are profitable they were left alone. This kind of thing didn't happen at Shaw Brothers. He said that Shaw Brothers never changed their formula either but Golden harvest was willing to take risks and try new things. Wuxia swordplay fell out of style in favor of more hand to hand combat and even gun fu a bit later but Shaws were too late to the game with new innovations.

Once Shaws built that massive outdoor set in 1966, they were stuck with wu xia. The films were probably fairly cheap to make, but you can see why the audiences changed by the late 70s

[Killer Meteor]

On 8/3/2020 at 10:33 PM, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

He did not tap into the zeitgeist of what was going on in HK at the time. Also, he was basically a Jackie Chan ripoff, and there were a ton of them, all at once. I mean, can you imagine him doing something ground breaking like Project A? Winners and Sinners?

At the same time you have Jackie, Yuen Biao, Sammo and crew all helping each other out and why go see a knockoff when you can see the real thing? Even with a few laughs these kind of films were played out over there. How many movies can you watch of Simon Yuen, possibly wandering from set to set, day after day wearing the same outfit and make up and teaching one preening knucklehead after another? 

And just so you know, I really liked Fistful of Talons, but even that could not put him over. 

Same with Conan Lee. He gets some great setpieces in his debut, Ninja in the Dragon's Den, but the character is the stock nasal whiner naughty boy Jackie perfected in '78, and the only way you can tell him apart from the myraid other Jackie clones is he has a bit of a perm.

[sifu iron perm]

On 7/22/2020 at 5:51 PM, Killer Meteor said:

Way of the Dragon is mostly silly slapstick up until the finale...and even that has the cat as referee.

the cat was a cute addition. 

 

 

[Markgway]

Shaw Bros produced great traditional martial arts movies, but could never compare to Golden Harvest in their modern day action pictures, and by the '80s that was what the public wanted. 

[DragonClaws]

On 8/7/2020 at 11:51 AM, Markgway said:

Shaw Bros produced great traditional martial arts movies, but could never compare to Golden Harvest in their modern day action pictures, and by the '80s that was what the public wanted. 

 

I wonder why Shaw's just couldn't get the formula right with the more contemporary settings?. 

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

On 8/9/2020 at 8:17 AM, DragonClaws said:

 

I wonder why Shaw's just couldn't get the formula right with the more contemporary settings?. 

It's like a recipe. If you have the same temperature and ingredients you are going to get the same dish, over and over. I don't think Shaw had the right ingredients, if you notice how poorly the venoms did in front of the camera when they left for example. Also, Chang's films, for example, were getting slaughtered by the local critics. And another issue was that VCR's and TV Dramas changed the dynamic as well back then. A friend of mine that was hardcore Chinese told me it was much harder to get Chinese people to the cinema in the 80's. They could watch movies on video and the TV shows had all the stuff they wanted for cheaper. You really had to make an event out of movie, which Jackie, Sammo and Michael Hui were capable of. Then John Woo came in and took the stale Kung Fu themes and added guns and acrobatic shoot outs and it was just a huge shift. As much as we like them a lot of those girls with guns were considered cheap flicks.